Conflicting Narratives

[MrGap92]

1)  We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones.  He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.


2)  Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing

3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.

4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.

5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him).  If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones.  I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here:  "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter.  2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here.  Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons."  I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.

I tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?



Secondly, I also believe it to be unfair to judge that contract as harshly considering:

There was a built in out, that will soon be exercised.

They were selecting 25th, and were not in a great position to draft anyone

There, at the time, were no clear and obvious substantial upgrades in FA


This is coupled, with the opinion, that after a successful first season with Daboll, it would only seem reasonable that if Jones was actually good, and it wasn't a fluke, that he would be expected to be able to take the next step in his development and handle more than 4 yard passes while continuing to elevate his level of play. He didn't, and he wasn't, and the contract shows they were prepared for one of two situations. 1) He continued to grow, develop, and get better and they get a bargain or 2) Their concerns he wouldn't would come to reality and they have an escape built in just in case. To me, that actually seems very smart. It didn't work out, but the expectation he would continue to get better after 2022 is not unreasonable by any stretch, to say they signed a limited QB to $40M  is a bit extreme to me, all things considered. The hope was that he would have continued his ascent, sadly, he peaked in 2022.

They even incentivized his contract to allow him to make even more money if he played at a higher level, he has not even come close to those incentives. Not that he needed any to begin with, he is clearly of high character and a hard, tough worker. He is giving it all he has, it just isn't enough. 

[Gmo11]

1)  We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones.  He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.


2)  Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing

3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.

4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.

5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him).  If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones.  I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here:  "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter.  2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here.  Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons."  I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.

1) Him saying they did everything to screw him up to me is showing bias towards the player.  He hasn't said the same thing for Evan Neal for example. He liked Jones and like most fans had hope that Jones would be better than he is.

2) Mara allowed Barkley to leave in the "you better be right about this" type of way.  Which with the addition of Tracy doing what he has done has at shown that he was correct.

3) He allowed them to not exercise the 5th option because to that point Jones had never been any good.  Even that rookie year was him feasting on a couple bad teams and playing terribly against the good ones.  After that 2 stinkers.  There was no reason to object to the notion that Jones was awful until the 2022 season.  At that point he could say "Wait a minute here!  You've found something.  Build off that"

4) Daboll got credit then, I'm referring to right now and the people specifically that want him fired.  Not just you, there's a lot of chatter about that.  Do we think the 2022 coach of the year simply forgot how to coach over the course of 2 seasons? 

5) We don't know how strongly Daboll/Schoen pushed to move on in 2022 but I do know it's a lot harder for them to win that argument in 2022 than it was in 2021.  Perhaps their own hubris got in the way.  Maybe Daboll thought xxxx I can make this guy good enough to win with.  Or perhaps he was worried that trying to convince Mara that this was the best we were ever going to see of Daniel Jones would be akin to writing his own letter of resignation because if he's admitting he can't work with this guy you can bet Mara won't have to look long to find some other OC who says he can.  And I can absolutely imagine Mara looking at that season, seeing the wins/losses, and not understanding either by lack of knowledge or willful ignorance why Jones won't improve on that season rather than regress. 

[T200]

4) Daboll got credit then, I'm referring to right now and the people specifically that want him fired.  Not just you, there's a lot of chatter about that.  Do we think the 2022 coach of the year simply forgot how to coach over the course of 2 seasons? 

Daboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.

Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.

    

[MrGap92]

Daboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.

Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.

    

I think this is the best way anyone has summed it up.

[Ed Vette]

I think this is the best way anyone has summed it up.

Ask McAdoo what he thinks of that.

[Painter]

When are there not conflicting narratives? And how often do we guess correctly around here? As for the so-called, experts- excluding the media who view success through different lenses- they should be even more embarrassed.

All any of us really know is that decades of Quarterback Drafts have in total produced only slightly more than 50 percent success- however we may choose to define it. Of course, while it's a cautionary tale in the sport of chance, all we care about is what should would could happen in the next Draft as it might affect Our Heroes.

Personally, I'm not ready to start speculating about it, not because I'm afraid of being wrong, as I can always trust hindsight to allow me to do what we all do best which is to second guess, but because I think it's too soon to join the Rash Mob.

Narratives! Narratives! Narratives!, don't make me 

Cheers!

[MightyGiants]

Daboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.

Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.

    

Matt Nagy won COTY in 2018, only to be fired from the Bears after the 2021 season

Frank Reich won COTY in 2019, only to be fired by the Colts after the 2022 season

Jay Gruden won COTY in 2016, only to be fired by Washington after the 2019 season

Mike Vrabel won COTY in 2021, only to be fired by the Titans after the 2023 season

[EDjohnst1981]

Matt Nagy won COTY in 2018, only to be fired from the Bears after the 2021 season

Frank Reich won COTY in 2019, only to be fired by the Colts after the 2022 season

Jay Gruden won COTY in 2016, only to be fired by Washington after the 2019 season

Mike Vrabel won COTY in 2021, only to be fired by the Titans after the 2021 season

That's not correct. Vrabel was fired in Jan 24

[MightyGiants]

That's not correct. Vrabel was fired in Jan 24

Yes, he was fired after the 2023 season.  I fixed the typo you pointed out.

Vrabel is on my list of coaches I think might help bring the sort of winning culture this team needs.  I think he got fired because he lost a power struggle with the Titan's new GM, Ran Carthon

[MightyGiants]

@MrGap92

To your point about the challenge after the 2022 season to get a QB.  If Schoen and Daboll even partially agreed with your views on Jones they had the option of slapping the franchise tag on DJ and negotiating a contract with Barkley. 

In fact if Schoen and Daboll still had serious doubts about Jones, that would have (in my opinion) been the most prudent thing to do because they could have extended DJ's tryout for another year at much less cost then the contract was (even with the bailout they will suffer more than $20 million in cap hits in 2025)

[EDjohnst1981]

Whilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.

[T200]

Whilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.

   

I had not looked at it that way.

[MrGap92]

@MrGap92

To your point about the challenge after the 2022 season to get a QB.  If Schoen and Daboll even partially agreed with your views on Jones they had the option of slapping the franchise tag on DJ and negotiating a contract with Barkley. 

In fact if Schoen and Daboll still had serious doubts about Jones, that would have (in my opinion) been the most prudent thing to do because they could have extended DJ's tryout for another year at much less cost then the contract was (even with the bailout they will suffer more than $20 million in cap hits in 2025)

And that one, I agree with you 100%

I would have preferred that scenario much more myself, so on that one, we agree.

I would even prefer DJ getting the tag if it meant Barkley left a year sooner (maybe he would have landed elsewhere too), cause at least Jones is fully off the books, which would be better cap wise than the year 2 out.

A Barkley/Tracy duo would be fun to watch.

[MrGap92]

Whilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.

If they tagged him or never resigned him, and last year was the end of it. Would they not have ended with $41M more next next as opposed to $19?

I'm not a cap guy, so this is interesting.

[MightyGiants]

Whilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.

The cost of getting out of the deal is the $22 million in dead cap space.  Had they franchised DJ and released him last year, the Giants would have $22 million in cap space in 2025, and then they would be cutting him after the season.

Another way of looking at it is this way:

2025 DJ has a cap hit of $41.6 million.  By cutting him the team saves the $19 million but they still lose the $22 million (19 + 22 = 41)