Eagles fans chant "Thank you Giants"...

[Gmo11]

Tim,

What exactly is Schoen's team-building vision/philosophy?   Keep in mind "smart, tough, and dependable" is a criteria for talent acquisition and not a team building vision.

It seems pretty clear to me his philosophy is build the lines first, then extend from there.  His 1st round picks before Nabers, his FA signings, the trade for Burns all focus on the lines.  He's hit on some missed on others as any GM does but that seems to be the plan. 

If you wanted to go back to before the Jones contract his plan was to sacrifice (tank) the 2022 season to get out of the incredible cap hell Gettleman left in his wake, let Jones walk as he builds up the roster, then take a rookie QB to put him in a situation he can succeed in. 

Instead the 2022 season was far more successful than it had any right to be, that team wasn't very good but lucked their way into a playoff appearance/win and suddenly that plan, the direction, the philosophy suddenly changed to "we need to win now". Personally, I don't think he and Daboll decided to abandon the plan themselves.  It seems more likely that Mara got in their ears saying they can't justify going through with the original plan after they just made the playoffs.  Take Jones and win.  So they tried to do that...it just can't be done.  By them or anybody else.

[MrGap92]

Here is a question, did Jerry Reese, DG, or any other GM outside of the Giants, or prior to them, publicly break down and explain their vision? If yes, what did they have to say?

Or otherwise, how does it not being explain, prove, without a shadow of a doubt that there isn't one?

[uconnjack8]

Here is a question, did Jerry Reese, DG, or any other GM outside of the Giants, or prior to them, publicly break down and explain their vision? If yes, what did they have to say?

"something something hogmollies"

[MightyGiants]

Here is a question, did Jerry Reese, DG, or any other GM outside of the Giants, or prior to them, publicly break down and explain their vision? If yes, what did they have to say?

Or otherwise, how does it not being explain, prove, without a shadow of a doubt that there isn't one?

George Young-  Valued the lines and was a size, weight, speed program.  Felt strongly they needed to build a team with players that met those criteria.  Really valued big talent offensive linemen because there were only "so many dancing elephants on the planet"

EA-  We know he felt a team could never have too many pass rushers

David Gettleman-  you build a team that can run the ball, stop the run, and get to the opposing QB.  Was a big fan of the Hog Mollies

Jerry Reese-  favored skill players and playmakers.  He liked to build his teams outside to in

Here is GM Chris Ballard sharing part of his team building philosophy (I didn't research to see if he shared more in other interviews)

"We've got good players out of free agency, and we've been successful," Ballard said on the podcast. "We're just not the biggest fans of right out the gate free agency where you're paying B players A-plus money, which is gonna affect down the line. . . . There's a cost to that."

"Our players know we want to keep them," Ballard said on the podcast. "We've done a pretty good job so far of keeping the players we wanted to keep in-house. We feel like we have a really good . . . I know culture gets thrown around, but we do. I think we have a really good culture. It's one of accountability. One where they care about each other, and one where they want to win and do special things."

Here is Titan's GM Ran Carthon explaining his team building philosophy

https://x.com/TampaBayTre/status/1630651177162403840

the team's apparent three-step team-building plan under Roseman:

Build your roster through the draft.
Retain your best players by entering extension talks early, and reaching affordable long-term deals when the ever-increasing salary cap rises.
Prepare for the mid- and long-term future by drafting players who can develop behind those you awarded long-term extensions.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5420528/2024/04/17/eagles-nfl-draft-howie-roseman-nick-sirianni/

[EDjohnst1981]

This build the roster through the draft is absolute common sense - they are cost controlled but Les Snead has also shown you can mortgage the farm to a Lombardi and "f**k them (sic) picks"

Point being, there's many ways to skin a cat. JS has hit on some - Nabers and Burns will be studs on the team. Tracey will compete, the rookies this year looks good.

It's far too soon to judge a GM and HC, especially if seeking stability, when coupled with a QB they didn't want to extend the 5th year option to.

[T200]

This build the roster through the draft is absolute common sense - they are cost controlled but Les Snead has also shown you can mortgage the farm to a Lombardi and "f**k them (sic) picks"

Point being, there's many ways to skin a cat. JS has hit on some - Nabers and Burns will be studs on the team. Tracey will compete, the rookies this year looks good.

It's far too soon to judge a GM and HC, especially if seeking stability, when coupled with a QB they didn't want to extend the 5th year option to.

If we're going to adhere to the "it takes at least 3 years to judge a draft" mantra, there's only one draft class to evaluate Schoen and Co. on. Free agents are fair game, IMHO.

As you said, the QB is the straw that stirs the drink.

[uconnjack8]

We need more talent
We shouldn't sign Barkley or McKinney
Build through the draft
Barkley and McKinney were drafted
Don't overpay for non-premium positions


It strikes me that if we want more talent on the team, then when talented players that have been drafted hit FA some will need to be signed. 

I am on the record as being fine with letting Barkley go, but I will say, if they don't keep the talent they draft it's not going to get much better.

How many times have we heard "how good was Barkley the team stunk with him on it".  Soon to be "how good was Dexter Lawrence the team stunk with him on it". If you don't put more decent talent around your top tier talent it will be wasted.

Talent has to be accumulated over time and kept on the roster. 

The "vision" of team building varies from GM to GM and coach to coach.  Perhaps that may be why Banks had a promising start as a rookie but seems to have regressed with a new DC.  McKinney was drafted by a previous regime and didn't fit the current regimes vision. 

[Painter]

It looks like it takes very little for Eagles fans to tie Giants fans up with a black bow on it as evidenced by what has become such a confounded reaction to a simple poke in the ribs.

Cheers!

[PSUBeirut]

Really happy he's in a place where he can shine like he should.  I still maintain if he was in a good situation all along and hadn't been snakebit by injury he'd already be in the "all time great" conversation.  He's still only 27 years old, so hopefully he can continue to stay healthy and make big things happen on the field.

And, again, it seems more and more obvious that Schoen tagged the wrong dude a couple years back.  Hopefully Tyrone Tracy can work well with whoever our new QB will be and get the offense back on track in the next few years.

[MightyGiants]

I will add one other point about Joe Schoen and his plans.   Regardless of if there is a plan or vision, said plan/vision is of little use if it's not used.  While I agree Hard Knocks wasn't a definitive look, there were solid looks at the team-building process in terms of acquiring and letting players walk.  We saw discussions up and down the chain of command about important decisions to be made.   Yet we never heard those visions brought up in the context of the decision.  One of the first things I learned was you don't develop a strategic vision just to post it up on the wall somewhere.  Instead, that vision should be used with every decision.  Every decision should be framed in the context of that vision.   Yet, despite all the discussions, we never once heard that done.  Perhaps the most glaring was when Mara's nephew asked Schoen and company what the team's identity would be without Barkley.  Instead of saying how letting Barkley walk would help the team achieve the GM's vision for the team, Schoen's response is, "They didn't pay their QB $40 million to hand off to Barkley".  For me, that was pretty definitive in terms of whether the GM had a vision and, more importantly, was using the vision to construct the team.

[Philosophers]

Two players, Barkley and Mckinney, are on track to be first team All Pro. Meanwhile, the Giants need All Pro talent. To your point, they probably aren't All Pro if they stayed with the Giants. We are trapped in a vicious cycle.

100% right however finding that kind of talent is very challenging so when you get it, you must build around it.  Giants failed to build around Barkley.  Imagine Barkley and Tracy along with Nabers and a new Giants QB in 2025.

[MightyGiants]

100% right however finding that kind of talent is very challenging so when you get it, you must build around it.  Giants failed to build around Barkley.  Imagine Barkley and Tracy along with Nabers and a new Giants QB in 2025.

That's why the Giants are so bad.  Any success Schoen has enjoyed in terms of adding talent, has been offset by his allowing talent to leave (worse with no compensation)

[kingm56]

I'm struck by how many are evaluating the Barkley situation in isolation. While initial disappointment might be understandable, it's worth emphasizing that Tracy has proven to be a highly effective replacement at a fraction of the cost. If we extrapolate their performance metrics over a 17-game season, the differences fall within statistically insignificant margins. Moreover, Tracy's production has come despite operating behind a less effective offensive line and with a quarterback whose downfield passing capabilities are severely limited. Given these circumstances, the running back position appears to be in a strong and sustainable place.

[PSUBeirut]

100% right however finding that kind of talent is very challenging so when you get it, you must build around it.  Giants failed to build around Barkley.  Imagine Barkley and Tracy along with Nabers and a new Giants QB in 2025.

Couldn't agree more.  Seems like the two biggest mistakes we've made in the last decade were choosing the wrong offensive players to build around- 1st mistake = Eli, 2nd mistake = DJ.  The fact that they were both quarterbacks just nails the coffin shut.

[DaveBrown74]

Is building around a RB the paradigm for success in today's NFL? What team that has been successful in recent times has done that? The Pats never did that in their great 20 year run. The Chiefs haven't done it at all with this current dynasty or borderline dynasty they have. The Eagles haven't done it. Other successful teams in recent times like the 49ers and Ravens haven't done it either.

Teams that are already very good or elite may choose to add a top RB like Barkley or McCaffrey as a way of going from good to very good or very good to great, but I can't think of a single franchise in recent times that successfully centered the beginnings of their build around a RB. There have been teams that have tried, such as the Titans with Henry, the Panthers with McCaffrey, and even the Vikes with Adrian Peterson, but the strategy has not gotten them very far. That is because the league has changed.

I am in no way suggesting that great RBs cannot do a lot for a team. Obviously they can. But I am definitely disputing the idea that the Giants should have made Barkley the centerpiece of a bad team and built around him. Or that any bad team in the early days of a build should do that. That model is relic of the past, and at this point I would call it the fairly distant past.