Eagles fans chant "Thank you Giants"...

[T200]

There is so much evidence of a lack of vision. Schoen has depleted one area to get better another. Which basically is shooting yourself in the foot. The Giant defense has a good secondary in 2022 only to lose players to other team. Now we have a secondary that lacks ball hawking skills and they have zero interceptions 10 games in. He improved the Defensive Line and lead the league in sacks but there is no balance. Basically you have given up interceptions for sacks. There is suppose to be balance. The Giant offense sucks we all know it. Knowing that they wanted to get rid of DJ yet they gave him a contract where is the vision in that. They franchise tag Barkley let him walk right to a divisional rival when he could have dumped him for a 4-5 round pick to some other team out there. We have no superstars from his regime his best two players are still Gettleman players. Lawrence and Andrew Thomas. Believe what you want but Gettleman players got the team to the playoffs in 2022. Since then he has dismantled the secondary added his player to it. He picked poorly the two pick top picks he has had in KT and Neal or Schoen just doesn't have the vision to get the best help for his picks to achieve what he believes they are capable of.
I don't think Schoen has displayed that he is a visionary. Asides from Nabers and Tracey the other picks haven't been good. You can blame the QB for it but we will find out now if it was him or the coach. And don't give me Daboll is working with DeVito or Lock BS because that is part of Schoen's vision and this will speak volumes about our so called QB whisperer.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anything that says they don't have a lack of vision.

I do appreciate your reasons supporting why you don't want him here though.

[MightyGiants]

https://x.com/KaplanSportsBiz/status/1857433818732339644

https://x.com/AndrewBrandt/status/1857435168547492220

[MightyGiants]

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anything that says they don't have a lack of vision.

I do appreciate your reasons supporting why you don't want him here though.

Tim,

What exactly is Schoen's team-building vision/philosophy?   Keep in mind "smart, tough, and dependable" is a criteria for talent acquisition and not a team building vision.

[T200]

Tim,

What exactly is Schoen's team-building vision/philosophy?   Keep in mind "smart, tough, and dependable" is a criteria for talent acquisition and not a team building vision.

Not going to get into this with you, Rich. Your views are your views. I just asked a simple question to which I only got a laundry list of complaints that don't equate to not having a vision.

[MightyGiants]

Not going to get into this with you, Rich. Your views are your views. I just asked a simple question to which I only got a laundry list of complaints that don't equate to not having a vision.

Tim,

I thought you would be willing to discuss football minus the personal commentary.  If you don't want to, I understand.

To me, the issue seems to be whether Schoen has a team-building philosophy. It's notoriously difficult to prove a negative (e.g., that he doesn't have one). However, showing he has one should be straightforward, and I think if we can't prove he has one, it is fair to say the complaint/opinion about the GM lacking a team-building vision is a valid one (allowing for the possibility Schoen has one and he is going against conventional leadership wisdom and isn't sharing it).

[T200]

Tim,

I thought you would be willing to discuss football minus the personal commentary.  If you don't want to, I understand.

To me, the issue seems to be whether Schoen has a team-building philosophy. It's notoriously difficult to prove a negative (e.g., that he doesn't have one). However, showing he has one should be straightforward, and I think if we can't prove he has one, it is fair to say the complaint/opinion about the GM lacking a team-building vision is a valid one.

That's your personal view, nothing more or less. Your "shoulds" don't apply to everyone and everyone doesn't have to adhere to them.

But since the fans can't prove there is a plan, the calls for the guy to be fired are correct? Firing someone because of a shared opinion, not fact, but opinion, is OK?

This isn't a commentary on personal issues. It's about how, in this case, we as fans have different views on how a GM is running his football team. I appreciate the concerns GiantLeap listed but, as I said, they do not equate to the absence of a vision.

[Painter]

I'm glad to see him doing well. I expected it. Whether it was with the Eagles or another team with the line to block for him and a QB and receivers who could open up the passing game, he needed it.

A lot of things should have been done differently. It's water over the dam.

A sensible and well-reason comment. It is indeed water over the dam and, if we are smart, we won't add another drop to it.

Cheers!

[Messiah717]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but losing your star running back and first round pick for nothing is not water over the dam.  Especially when he's having an MVP caliber season with a hated rival.  That was a horrible blunder by this GM who misread the situation in every was possible. 

Then you wonder why this franchise is where it is that. 

[Giant Jim]

This is why you fire the GM. He should have traded Barkley when he had a chance. To have him in the same division and tormenting the Giants is borderline sabotage on the GM's part. What Schoen lacks is a vision for the Giants and that is one of the General Manager's biggest goals.

I agree, they should've traded him to get some value, but he still would've been a free agent after last season and probably signed with Philly anyway.

[T200]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but losing your star running back and first round pick for nothing is not water over the dam.  Especially when he's having an MVP caliber season with a hated rival.  That was a horrible blunder by this GM who misread the situation in every was possible. 

Then you wonder why this franchise is where it is that. 

"Water over the dam" vs "Water under the bridge"

In both instances, the situation has passed and nothing can be done about it. The difference is that one is more harmful/detrimental to the future.

Water over the dam.

[MightyGiants]

That's your personal view, nothing more or less. Your "shoulds" don't apply to everyone and everyone doesn't have to adhere to them.

But since the fans can't prove there is a plan, the calls for the guy to be fired are correct? Firing someone because of a shared opinion, not fact, but opinion, is OK?

This isn't a commentary on personal issues. It's about how, in this case, we as fans have different views on how a GM is running his football team. I appreciate the concerns GiantLeap listed but, as I said, they do not equate to the absence of a vision.

It's funny.  After making the comment of trying to disprove a negative, I did a bit of research.  There are all bodies of work that say it's incorrect to say you can't disprove a negative.  Essentially the key is simply to change beyond any doubt, to probable, which is considered disproven.  For example, the lack of evidence shows the existence of unicorns is unlikely but it doesn't disprove it with absolute certainty

Here is an interesting article on that particular topic:

https://factmyth.com/factoids/you-cant-prove-a-negative/

But since the fans can't prove there is a plan, the calls for the guy to be fired are correct?

I would disagree with that statement.  Firings ultimately come down to producing results and deciding if there is any reason to think that results will get better if no change is made.  So, the lack of a team-building vision would certainly be an important aspect of such a discussion, but it's hardly the only aspect.

they do not equate to the absence of a vision.

To the first point I raised, in the absence of evidence of a plan, it's reasonable to say that such a plan is unlikely to exist. 

[MightyGiants]

"Water over the dam" vs "Water under the bridge"

In both instances, the situation has passed and nothing can be done about it. The difference is that one is more harmful/detrimental to the future.

Water over the dam.

You are correct and bravo for teaching me something new.  Still, while it may be water over the dam, the issue is still relevant in the context of evaluating the job Joe Schoen (and the entire Giants organization to some degree) has done as GM.

[T200]

It's funny.  After making the comment of trying to disprove a negative, I did a bit of research.  There are all bodies of work that say it's incorrect to say you can't disprove a negative.  Essentially the key is simply to change beyond any doubt, to probable, which is considered disproven.  For example, the lack of evidence shows the existence of unicorns is unlikely but it doesn't disprove it with absolute certainty

Here is an interesting article on that particular topic:

https://factmyth.com/factoids/you-cant-prove-a-negative/

I would disagree with that statement.  Firings ultimately come down to producing results and deciding if there is any reason to think that results will get better if no change is made.  So, the lack of a team-building vision would certainly be an important aspect of such a discussion, but it's hardly the only aspect.

To the first point I raised, in the absence of evidence of a plan, it's reasonable to say that such a plan is unlikely to exist. 

Aaaaannnnnnndddd this is why I didn't want to get into this with you.

No one outside of 1925 Giants Way knows what the vision is, if there is one. The only thing the front office owes fans is to put a respectable product on the field every week. They don't need to divulge the details of what they do, how they do it, and what their vision is.

[T200]

You are correct and bravo for teaching me something new.  Still, while it may be water over the dam, the issue is still relevant in the context of evaluating the job Joe Schoen (and the entire Giants organization to some degree) has done as GM.

JS already said there are some things he wish he could have done differently. What those things are, we don't know. What we do know is that this is his and Daboll's first time in their respective positions. We also know that not one person in the history of employment nailed every decision that was made.

I've said many more times than I need to that this mess wasn't created under this administration. It. Takes. Time. There are too many folks expecting a great Thanksgiving turkey to come out of the microwave.

Edit to add: No one is absolving them or ignoring the decisions that didn't work out for the team. He needs to be evaluated on everything, not just the stuff that didn't work.

[Painter]

Incessant whining reduces the merit in whatever may be our position as it becomes difficult to tell whether it's water over or under, or the fault of the turf, Ronnie Barnes or just absence of a plan.

Sorry, but I forget who said that.

Cheers!