TIME to bring in a new coaching staff

[T200]

Tim,

I think the far more important question is how you are not holding them accountable for that critical decision.   All they needed was one QB.  If one of those (and it's looking pretty good for Nix) QB prospects develops into a franchise QB and it is looking like a major mistake by Schoen and Daboll (and not one that is easily pawned off on John Mara, since we saw him give his blessing on HK).

Rich,

Put up a poll and ask if we should draft a QB just to draft one and let's see the responses. I can't believe that's actually a question!

It's moot at this point. You guys have your pitch forks and there's nothing to be said that will stop you. Enjoy your march.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

Put up a poll and ask if we should draft a QB just to draft one and let's see the responses. I can't believe that's actually a question!

It's moot at this point. You guys have your pitch forks and there's nothing to be said that will stop you. Enjoy your march.

Tim,

You can't have it both ways.  You can't excuse the objectively terrible performance by Schoen and Daboll, saying they don't have a franchise quarterback and giving them a pass on passing on a franchise quarterback in the last draft.   At some point, you need a bit of consistency.

[T200]

Tim,

You can't have it both ways.  You can't excuse the objectively terrible performance by Schoen and Daboll, saying they don't have a franchise quarterback and giving them a pass on passing on a franchise quarterback in the last draft.   At some point, you need a bit of consistency.

Rich,

It's not having it both ways. You can't even acknowledge what I said: You don't draft a QB solely to draft a QB. They felt neither of the last three were a fit for the Giants. We don't know their reasons. They had their eyes on two other guys and made an effort to move up.

Please stop coming after me. I know your position and you know mine. If you can't discuss this in good faith ("You can't excuse the objectively terrible performance by Schoen and Daboll"), then we need to talk about something else.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

It's not having it both ways. You can't even acknowledge what I said: You don't draft a QB solely to draft a QB. They felt neither of the last three were a fit for the Giants. We don't know their reasons. They had their eyes on two other guys and made an effort to move up.

Please stop coming after me. I know your position and you know mine. If you can't discuss this in good faith ("You can't excuse the objectively terrible performance by Schoen and Daboll"), then we need to talk about something else.

Tim,

How can I acknowledge "you don't draft a QB to draft a QB" when that only serves to distract from the actual point that if you need a franchise QB and there is a franchise QB in the draft you draft said franchise QB. 

They may not have believed the trio were franchise QBs, so yes, from that perspective, they were correct not to draft one, but that doesn't mean they were not fatally wrong in their assessment of the trio.

At the end of the day, you need a franchise QB.   Hanging your hat on one aspect (conviction in the QB drafted) doesn't negate a faulty evaluation.

[T200]

Tim,

How can I acknowledge "you don't draft a QB to draft a QB" when that only serves to distract from the actual point that if you need a franchise QB and there is a franchise QB in the draft you draft said franchise QB. 

They may not have believed the trio were franchise QBs, so yes, from that perspective, they were correct not to draft one, but that doesn't mean they were not fatally wrong in their assessment of the trio.

At the end of the day, you need a franchise QB.   Hanging your hat on one aspect (conviction in the QB drafted) doesn't negate a faulty evaluation.

OK Rich. You win. 

[MightyGiants]

OK Rich. You win. 

Unfortunately, it means we (all Giants fans) lose 


The question is, does Mara do anything about the duo that took a playoff team and led it to back-to-back double-digit loss seasons?

[katkavage]

Because they didn't like any of those QB's at that spot?

Yeah more bad judgement by the dynamic duo.

[T200]

Yeah more bad judgement by the dynamic duo.

Sean Payton pushed Russell Wilson out, who had a good season last year. Wilson is leading the Steelers to a potential division title.

Sometimes, the coach and player don't match up.

[MrGap92]

Same reason people who say "pick this posiiton in round one, this one round 2, and this one round 3 in that order and so on" are wrong. Its armchair GMing, you draft for need or force a position, you are doomed to fail much more likely than you are to succeed. It doesn't matter how good any player looks, it doesn't mean they would look just as good on the 31 other teams. Some may be better, some worse.

They didn't like the other guys probably for good reason. There is plenty they can and should be held accountable for, this is not one of them unless you can provide clear, indisputable evidence Bo Nix or whoever else would be just as good for the Giants this year.

People far too often overlook schematics, chemistry, and overall team fit as they want a square peg in a round hole. Nix can be a franchise guy for DEN, does not mean he would be for the Giants, Falcons, Vikings, or any other team that selected before Nix was picked.

Also the same reason I think the "less quality QB prospects" argument is also weak. How is Trubisky looking who was a higher regarded prospect than Mahomes. Trevor Lawrence the generational talent? Bryce Young? The perceived talent level of a class of any position is not known until they show us what it is on the field. Maybe it will be weak, but it isn't going to be because mock draft or someone on ESPN or Twitter said so. But maybe it will also be strong, who knows? No one, including myself.

It's funny, everyone talks about how much of a crapshoot drafting a QB is, how unsure of a thing it is, talking about success rates, yet some of those same people speak in absolutes about the upcoming class.

Look how wrong they were with that decision.  Now they go into an offseason with less high quality QB prospects

How do we know they were wrong? They did their due diligence and for whatever reason, they decided to pass on Nix, Penix, and McCarthy. Why fault them for that?

Man, you guys are really out for blood!

Tim,

I think the far more important question is how you are not holding them accountable for that critical decision.  All they needed was one QB.  If one of those (and it's looking pretty good for Nix) QB prospects develops into a franchise QB and it is looking like a major mistake by Schoen and Daboll (and not one that is easily pawned off on John Mara, since we saw him give his blessing on HK).

[MightyGiants]

It's worth remembering that Schoen and Daboll have enjoyed a bit of a pass when it came to not drafting a QB.  2 out of the 3 QBs they passed on have yet to see the field.   The one that has is looking very good.  Would Nix have played as well for the Giants?  Doubtful, Daboll is not as good a QB coach as Sean Payton and the Broncos have more talent to support their QB than the Giants do.

The fact that the Giants are not a good place for a QB to develop is part of the argument for not keeping Schoen and Daboll.   That is beyond the fact that you don't get to pass on a QB in a strong QB class and then try and use a lack of a franchise QB as the reason you should keep your jobs.

Same reason people who say "pick this posiiton in round one, this one round 2, and this one round 3 in that order and so on" are wrong. Its armchair GMing, you draft for need or force a position, you are doomed to fail much more likely than you are to succeed. It doesn't matter how good any player looks, it doesn't mean they would look just as good on the 31 other teams. Some may be better, some worse.

They didn't like the other guys probably for good reason. There is plenty they can and should be held accountable for, this is not one of them unless you can provide clear, indisputable evidence Bo Nix or whoever else would be just as good for the Giants this year.

People far too often overlook schematics, chemistry, and overall team fit as they want a square peg in a round hole. Nix can be a franchise guy for DEN, does not mean he would be for the Giants, Falcons, Vikings, or any other team that selected before Nix was picked.

Also the same reason I think the "less quality QB prospects" argument is also weak. How is Trubisky looking who was a higher regarded prospect than Mahomes. Trevor Lawrence the generational talent? Bryce Young? The perceived talent level of a class of any position is not known until they show us what it is on the field. Maybe it will be weak, but it isn't going to be because mock draft or someone on ESPN or Twitter said so. But maybe it will also be strong, who knows? No one, including myself.

It's funny, everyone talks about how much of a crapshoot drafting a QB is, how unsure of a thing it is, talking about success rates, yet some of those same people speak in absolutes about the upcoming class.

[katkavage]

And Payton drafted a rookie QB the Giants passed on and has what was a moribund team in playoff contention

[T200]

It's worth remembering that Schoen and Daboll have enjoyed a bit of a pass when it came to not drafting a QB.  2 out of the 3 QBs they passed on have yet to see the field.   The one that has is looking very good.  Would Nix have played as well for the Giants?  Doubtful, Daboll is not as good a QB coach as Sean Payton and the Broncos have more talent to support their QB than the Giants do.

The fact that the Giants are not a good place for a QB to develop is part of the argument for not keeping Schoen and Daboll.   That is beyond the fact that you don't get to pass on a QB in a strong QB class and then try and use a lack of a franchise QB as the reason you should keep your jobs.

@Ed Vette is the only person I recall advocating for Bo Nix. Now, in Week 14, you want to tar and feather Schoen for "missing" on him.

You keep saying they are getting a pass for not picking a QB. Not sure what site you've been on but there have been plenty of people who wanted to franchise Jones and pick a QB two years ago. You keep ignoring the fact that they tried to move up to pick a new QB.

[MightyGiants]

@Ed Vette is the only person I recall advocating for Bo Nix. Now, in Week 14, you want to tar and feather Schoen for "missing" on him.

You keep saying they are getting a pass for not picking a QB. Not sure what site you've been on but there have been plenty of people who wanted to franchise Jones and pick a QB two years ago. You keep ignoring the fact that they tried to move up to pick a new QB.

First, I predicted right after the Broncos drafted Nix that he would play well there (because I recognized the support the Broncos offered and knew it would maximize Nix's skill set).   As I said, the Giants not being primed to develop a QB is a major issue that lands at the feet of Schoen and Daboll.

As for the 2023 draft, the Giants were picking 25th and lacked extra draft capital.  So, who were they realistically going to draft?   The Giants lacked the ammo to go all the way up to 3rd to draft the last one taken (Anthony Richardson, who isn't a sure thing at this point).  Teams needing a QB draft a QB when they are sitting high in the draft, they don't trade all the way down to 25th.

As for the fact that they tried to move up and fail, I am aware.   You need to have a quality backup plan when your original plan fails.   Their backup plan led to a second season of double-digit losses and a chance to draft a QB with far more question marks than the ones they passed on in the last draft.

[T200]

And Payton drafted a rookie QB the Giants passed on and has what was a moribund team in playoff contention

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Payton saw something in Nix that he liked, the same way Chicago, New England, Washington, Atlanta, and Minnesota passed on him in favor of someone else they liked better. It's not a crime nor a ding on the teams that passed on him.

[MightyGiants]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Payton saw something in Nix that he liked, the same way Chicago, New England, Washington, Atlanta, and Minnesota passed on him in favor of someone else they liked better. It's not a crime nor a ding on the teams that passed on him.

It is a crime if one of the teams that passed on him has double-digit losses and is blaming a lack of a franchise QB for the mess.