Malik Nabers is NOT happy

[MrGap92]

Yawn...I hate it when facts get in the way of my narrative; heavens forbit we actually incorporate objectionable data into our analysis.  However, please continue with pressing the notion that Tom Brady wasn't the primary factor in NE's success....

Him dodging the question is all the answer you need.

Look at the difference his return made to virtually the same team, how it looked when he left for Tampa, and what Tampa did with largely the same team Jameis Winston did little with the year prior (to Tampas credit they did make a few more moves, but it was largely the same team).

[MrGap92]

Slayton is our best receiver over the last 6 years and it hasn't been close, he deserves better than he has gotten from the fans.

[TONKA56]

Him dodging the question is all the answer you need.

Look at the difference his return made to virtually the same team, how it looked when he left for Tampa, and what Tampa did with largely the same team Jameis Winston did little with the year prior (to Tampas credit they did make a few more moves, but it was largely the same team).

Guys like you two remind me why I have better things to do than continue to waste my time here. Thanks for that.

[kingm56]

Guys like you two remind me why I have better things to do than continue to waste my time here. Thanks for that.

Guys who challenge your notion with objectionable facts cause you to feel this way?  Well, that explains a lot..  You substitute facts with sarcasm; yet, feel comfortable to criticize others...the irony makes me chuckle.   

[Ed Vette]

Yawn...I hate it when facts get in the way of my narrative; heavens forbit we actually incorporate objectionable data into our analysis.  However, please continue with pressing the notion that Tom Brady wasn't the primary factor in NE's success....

Bill built the team and coached the team. He also developed Brady's inherent talent. The facts are that they both were responsible for the success of that team. Of course a Coach needs talent to be successful but a player in the wrong situation will struggle. Brady went to a good team with a good HC. The following season it all fell apart and Brady was there.

We all know that Brady is in another league over Matt Cassel. But it goes to show how good that team was that Bill Built. If Mahommes or Allen were the QBs, they would have the same success. Jones would have gotten Bill fired.

Everyone has their peak. Players, coaches, and the average Joe on the street.

[kingm56]

Bill built the team and coached the team. He also developed Brady's inherent talent. The facts are that they both were responsible for the success of that team. Of course a Coach needs talent to be successful but a player in the wrong situation will struggle. Brady went to a good team with a good HC. The following season it all fell apart and Brady was there.

We all know that Brady is in another league over Matt Cassel. But it goes to show how good that team was that Bill Built. If Mahommes or Allen were the QBs, they would have the same success. Jones would have gotten Bill fired.

Everyone has their peak. Players, coaches, and the average Joe on the street.

I do not have evidence to contradict your perspective, Ed. I believe you raise some compelling points. However, one aspect that remains speculative is the extent of Tom Brady's success without Bill Belichick's influence. My inclination is that Brady's achievements could have materialized even without Belichick's tutelage, much like how Lawrence Taylor's greatness would likely have persisted without the mentorship of Bill Parcells. That said, I acknowledge that my stance is rooted in conjecture rather than empirical evidence.  As kids are exposed to professional coaching at much younger ages, I believe the coaching aspect is becoming less and less important at the pro level.  Still, your notion about setting the right culture is spot on, which applies to any profession, I think.

[Ed Vette]

I do not have evidence to contradict your perspective, Ed. I believe you raise some compelling points. However, one aspect that remains speculative is the extent of Tom Brady's success without Bill Belichick's influence. My inclination is that Brady's achievements could have materialized even without Belichick's tutelage, much like how Lawrence Taylor's greatness would likely have persisted without the mentorship of Bill Parcells. That said, I acknowledge that my stance is rooted in conjecture rather than empirical evidence.  As kids are exposed to professional coaching at much younger ages, I believe the coaching aspect is becoming less and less important at the pro level.  Still, your notion about setting the right culture is spot on, which applies to any profession, I think.

Also, consider they were almost destined to be together as a team, like Eli and Coughlin. Imagine Eli with Ray Handley. Also, Bill drafted Brady in the sixth round. What if... His destiny may have been out of Football or as an UFA on a team like Detroit of the 90s.

[TDToomer]

How do you explain the same team won 7 more games the following season when Brady returned?  They set an NFL record, going 18-0, which directly refutes your narrative. Brady was the obvious difference; so, it appears to be about the one person....

The 18-1 season was the previous season 2007. The 11-5 Matt Cassel season was 2008.

[kingm56]

Also, consider they were almost destined to be together as a team, like Eli and Coughlin. Imagine Eli with Ray Handley. Also, Bill drafted Brady in the sixth round. What if... His destiny may have been out of Football or as an UFA on a team like Detroit of the 90s.

He absolutely gets credit for drafting and playing him.  Bill did a GREAT job acquiring talent when he was in his prime. 

[kingm56]

The 18-1 season was the previous season 2007. The 11-5 Matt Cassel season was 2008.

You're right, TD; the +7 wins was the delta between 07 and 08...I inverted them.

[Ed Vette]

The 18-1 season was the previous season 2007. The 11-5 Matt Cassel season was 2008.

We may need another lecture on what a fact is. 

[TDToomer]

You're right, TD; the +7 wins was the delta between 07 and 08...I inverted them.

But you are spot on at how talented that team was that they could only lose 5 regular season games with a backup QB who reportedly was a 2nd stringer in college.

[kingm56]

We may need another lecture on what a fact is. 

LMAO.  The fact was correct...i was a year too late 🤓. 

[T200]

I do not have evidence to contradict your perspective, Ed. I believe you raise some compelling points. However, one aspect that remains speculative is the extent of Tom Brady's success without Bill Belichick's influence. My inclination is that Brady's achievements could have materialized even without Belichick's tutelage, much like how Lawrence Taylor's greatness would likely have persisted without the mentorship of Bill Parcells. That said, I acknowledge that my stance is rooted in conjecture rather than empirical evidence.  As kids are exposed to professional coaching at much younger ages, I believe the coaching aspect is becoming less and less important at the pro level.  Still, your notion about setting the right culture is spot on, which applies to any profession, I think.

My take is different than yours but I like your inclusion of LT into the conversation. LT's gifts, in my opinion, were more physical heavy than mental. That's not to say LT was dumb as a doorknob... far from it. He was very intelligent when it came to football. His physical gifts were off the charts.

Brady, on the other hand, was not physically talented or gifted. His greatness was between his ears. Belichick helped cultivate that. They were yin and yang. Bill, being the defensive genius he is, taught Brady how to be an offensive threat by teaching how defenses work. Belichick threw the defensive kitchen sink at Brady and taught him how to beat it. Belichick was Morpheus and Brady was Neo. Once Brady had a full grasp of the concepts, he took it to the next level. He was The One.

No other coach in the past 20 years would have unlocked Brady's potential.

[LennG]

Sure, as long as we can collect 12x HOF, AP, Ring of Honor and Pro Bowl players too, we can also just miss out on the playoffs:

Richard Seymour (DE) - Pro Bowler from 2002 to 2006.
Rodney Harrison (S) - Pro Bowl in 1998 and 2001 with the Chargers.
Mike Vrabel (LB) - Pro Bowler in 2007.
Matt Light (OT) - Pro Bowler in 2006 (also in 2007 and later years).
Logan Mankins (G) - Later became a perennial Pro Bowl selection.
Stephen Gostkowski (K) - Pro Bowler later in his career (2008, 2013, and beyond).
Tedy Bruschi (LB) - Pro Bowler in 2004.
Randy Moss (WR) - Pro Bowler numerous times, including prior to 2008 with the Vikings and Raiders (1998–2000, 2002–2003, 2007).
Wes Welker (WR) - Earned Pro Bowl honors starting in 2008 (and multiple seasons afterward).
Adalius Thomas (LB): Pro Bowler with the Ravens in 2003 and 2006.
Junior Seau (LB): Longtime Pro Bowler during his career with the Chargers (1991–2002).
Laurence Maroney (RB): Not a Pro Bowler but was an emerging key player.

Lets also forget this same team won 7 more games the following season; so, it appears it is about one person.

The notion that Lil Bill performed some type of coaching miracle in 2008 is completely mystifying....that team had 3 Hall of Famers (not including Brady) and slew of AP and Pro Bowlers...they had a LOT of talent. 

Where did most of these players come from? Did BB have a hand in acquiring them or drafting them or did they just appear on the teams's doorstep? PLUS don't you think it was BB's schemes for defense that made many of them as good as they were? BB was (and still is) a defensive genius in football, do you think the game has passed him by in that respect?
And, as for Brady, why didn't any other team recognize his greatness? How did he last until the 6th round? Maybe it was BB's tutilage that helped make him become the GOAT?
Sure BB screwed up in post-Brady years, but like all other great coaches, you need a great QB to continue to be a great coach.