What exactly should the expectations of a "QB Guru" be?

[Ed Vette]

The mistake with Jones and the checkdowns was the Giants made a mistake by (offering him the Checkdown)...once it was apparent it was all he would go to they should've taken it off the table as best they can.

Checkdowns are incorporated in a majority of passing plays in the NFL and some of the most successful QB's and prolific passing teams have and do utilize it. When the first two reads are covered the most successful QBs will go to the RB or TE checkdown. It's often the third read. Brady, Brees, Mahomes often used it to move the ball. About 20% or more of all passing plays go to the checkdown. As I recall, more than half of all passing plays are 0-9 yards and behind the LOS. If you have a PFF subscription you can pull that up for every team, every game. If you recall, Eli would connect with Tiki Barber as he snuck out behind the rushing LBs to put up massive yards. He rarely lined up as a wideout or in the slot.

[Trench]

"Just Win Baby"

Truer words never spoken in the NFL.

[MightyGiants]

A QB guru is one part of the three pillars of QB support.  The three pillars are scheme/coaching, receiving, and pass protection.

For a coach to be considered a "QB Guru" they need to be exceptional at coaching up a QB and developing a scheme that accentuates their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.   They also need to be skilled at developing QB talent.   QBs are not drafted into the NFL knowing how to be an NFL QB, it takes development to get them to that goal.  QB gurus tend to be very good at developing QB prospects.


Examples of QB gurus, off the top of my head:

Andy Reid (perhaps the greatest of all time)
Kevin O'Connell
Pat Shurmur
Mike Macdonald
Sean McVay
Sean Payton
Ben Johnson
Kyle Shanahan

[Philosophers]

The mistake with Jones and the checkdowns was the Giants made a mistake by (offering him the Checkdown)...once it was apparent it was all he would go to they should've taken it off the table as best they can.

Yes.  They needed to explain that 4th and 6 is just as bad as 4th and 10 as they will still punt.  He needed to throw to first down markers.

[todge]

It was a no-win scenario for Daboll. They did their best to make DJ as productive as possible and maximize his skillset. That's the job of the coach; design a scheme built around the player's talents. Hence the dink-and-dunk.

Unfortunately it wasn't a viable offense for the long term. Teams had already figured it out by mid-season.

This season, they opened up the playbook and Nabers was getting over-targeted. But it didn't improve DJ's accuracy.

When asked why the Giants seemingly resort to a short/intermediate passing game, Daboll stated (in a postgame presser) that "they" like most teams employ two high safeties (or cover 2). Mel Kiper has called on the NFL to ban the defense because the long pass is rarely used now. I don't believe there is enough evidence to state with certainty that Daboll designed an offense around Jones' supposed limited skill set. At one point, PFF
had Jones rated as the fifth best passer over 20 yards.

In games 2-4, Daboll described Jones as being "locked in" along with this Board. The Pitt game saw 7 sacks, 10 hurries and 10 hits. The next game Jones was 20-26 with three drops and an elite PFF rating of 91.5.

There's two old sayings in football; " the QB gets too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when a team loses "; and, "a QB is only as good as his supporting cast".

[T200]

When asked why the Giants seemingly resort to a short/intermediate passing game, Daboll stated (in a postgame presser) that "they" like most teams employ two high safeties (or cover 2). Mel Kiper has called on the NFL to ban the defense because the long pass is rarely used now. I don't believe there is enough evidence to state with certainty that Daboll designed an offense around Jones' supposed limited skill set. At one point, PFF
had Jones rated as the fifth best passer over 20 yards.

In games 2-4, Daboll described Jones as being "locked in" along with this Board. The Pitt game saw 7 sacks, 10 hurries and 10 hits. The next game Jones was 20-26 with three drops and an elite PFF rating of 91.5.

There's two old sayings in football; " the QB gets too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when a team loses "; and, "a QB is only as good as his supporting cast".

There are plenty of teams throwing deep despite the 2-high safety defense. It can be beat.

I take what football people say to the press with a grain of salt. We all have the gift of discernment and there's nothing that I have seen or heard that demonstrated to me that Daboll was completely sold on Jones. He can be disappointed and still boost his confidence in public, as well as privately, to not kill his spirit. It's called managing people and personalities.

Contrast that with how Payton handled Wilson in Denver. The entire way he handled Wilson was a dick move by Payton.

[MrGap92]

A QB guru is one part of the three pillars of QB support.  The three pillars are scheme/coaching, receiving, and pass protection.

For a coach to be considered a "QB Guru" they need to be exceptional at coaching up a QB and developing a scheme that accentuates their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.   They also need to be skilled at developing QB talent.   QBs are not drafted into the NFL knowing how to be an NFL QB, it takes development to get them to that goal.  QB gurus tend to be very good at developing QB prospects.


Examples of QB gurus, off the top of my head:

Andy Reid (perhaps the greatest of all time)
Kevin O'Connell
Pat Shurmur
Mike Macdonald
Sean McVay
Sean Payton
Ben Johnson
Kyle Shanahan

What if one is saddled with a bad QB who just doesn't have the talent and/or mental capacity to effectively play the position?

[T200]

What if one is saddled with a bad QB who just doesn't have the talent and/or mental capacity to effectively play the position?

It doesn't even have to be a bad QB. Look at Matt Stafford and Jared Goff. They're both in better situations than what they were drafted into... and those weren't bad situations by any means.

[MrGap92]

It doesn't even have to be a bad QB. Look at Matt Stafford and Jared Goff. They're both in better situations than what they were drafted into... and those weren't bad situations by any means.

Very true, good point, like I said in other threads, can't make judgments based on position alone, great example of that.

[Philosophers]

A QB guru is one part of the three pillars of QB support.  The three pillars are scheme/coaching, receiving, and pass protection.

For a coach to be considered a "QB Guru" they need to be exceptional at coaching up a QB and developing a scheme that accentuates their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.   They also need to be skilled at developing QB talent.   QBs are not drafted into the NFL knowing how to be an NFL QB, it takes development to get them to that goal.  QB gurus tend to be very good at developing QB prospects.


Examples of QB gurus, off the top of my head:

Andy Reid (perhaps the greatest of all time)
Kevin O'Connell
Pat Shurmur
Mike Macdonald
Sean McVay
Sean Payton
Ben Johnson
Kyle Shanahan

Who is Mike Macdonald?

[MightyGiants]

Who is Mike Macdonald?

 head coach of the Seattle Seahawks

[MightyGiants]

What if one is saddled with a bad QB who just doesn't have the talent and/or mental capacity to effectively play the position?

There is an old saying about turning chicken poop into chicken salad.   Still, as guys like Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, and Geno Smith have demonstrated, one has to be careful about casting a final judgment.

I think, more importantly, if an HC is saddled with such a bad QB, one needs to explore the role said HC had in acquiring or retaining the QB in question.