Contrast the trajectories of Vikings and Giants in three years

[katkavage]

Kevin O'Connell came to the Vikings the same year as Daboll. He won 13 games, most very close wins, in his first year with Kirk Cousins and a shaky defense with Leslie Frazier as DC. The Giants beat them in that playoff game (as I thought they would. I thought the Giants were the better team at that time). The following year they brought in Brian Flores to fix the defense and it got better but Cousins tore his Achilles and played 8 games and went 4 and 4. Once he was gone the team used Nick Mullens and Josh Dobbs as QB and went 3-6 the rest of the year. This year they are heading into the final week with pick up Sam Darnold with the chance to be the number one seed in the NFC.

The Giants won 10 games with Daboll in 2022 and a playoff game. The following year the team went 5-10 and this year they are currently a 3 win team. Why can one team succeed so well while another just flounders and regresses? GM? Coach? Staff? Roster? What made the Vikings rise and the Giants fall? QB only? Good case study, I think.

[MrGap92]

The Vikings had QBs that fit their system. The Giants have had Daniel Jones who has been atrocious.

Before this season, Giants have not had an elite WR, they have had Justin Jefferson every year.

Giants have also sustained far more injuries. But, overall, Minnesota has done well for themselves and have been more successful. They have drafted very well. Trading Diggs foe Jefferson was a stroke of genius for them.

 I'll be rooting for them or Detroit in the NFC this year. Though I want the Chiefs to three peat.

[LennG]

Kevin O'Connell came to the Vikings the same year as Daboll. He won 13 games, most very close wins, in his first year with Kirk Cousins and a shaky defense with Leslie Frazier as DC. The Giants beat them in that playoff game (as I thought they would. I thought the Giants were the better team at that time). The following year they brought in Brian Flores to fix the defense and it got better but Cousins tore his Achilles and played 8 games and went 4 and 4. Once he was gone the team used Nick Mullens and Josh Dobbs as QB and went 3-6 the rest of the year. This year they are heading into the final week with pick up Sam Darnold with the chance to be the number one seed in the NFC.

The Giants won 10 games with Daboll in 2022 and a playoff game. The following year the team went 5-10 and this year they are currently a 3 win team. Why can one team succeed so well while another just flounders and regresses? GM? Coach? Staff? Roster? What made the Vikings rise and the Giants fall? QB only? Good case study, I think.

Good points, all of them.

And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team. Over and over our picks were to help an inept QB who, no matter who we got for him, still couldn't play.
Plus we are burdened with a coach who has surrounded himself with lower than average coaches. Our DC is a joke and was one when he was hired. We really haven't had an OC that can call as anything since Daboll has been here.
Plus we have an owner that thinks he knows it all and relies on sentiment instead of reality.

[katkavage]

The Vikings had QBs that fit their system. The Giants have had Daniel Jones who has been atrocious.

Before this season, Giants have not had an elite WR, they have had Justin Jefferson every year.

Giants have also sustained far more injuries. But, overall, Minnesota has done well for themselves and have been more successful. They have drafted very well. Trading Diggs foe Jefferson was a stroke of genius for them.

 I'll be rooting for them or Detroit in the NFC this year. Though I want the Chiefs to three peat.

You talk about the system. The coach gets credit for that,no? And also putting together a capable staff. The GM has drafted well and made the right free agency moves and trades. He deserves credit for their success as well. Sadly the Giants have been the opposite in those areas. I think those are the significant differences and why the Giants are a losing franchise.

[katkavage]

Good points, all of them.

And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team. Over and over our picks were to help an inept QB who, no matter who we got for him, still couldn't play.
Plus we are burdened with a coach who has surrounded himself with lower than average coaches. Our DC is a joke and was one when he was hired. We really haven't had an OC that can call as anything since Daboll has been here.
Plus we have an owner that thinks he knows it all and relies on sentiment instead of reality.

I agree the QB burdened the team significantly but the coach and GM have done very little to strengthen the team and overall staff and organization beyond the QB issue.

[MightyGiants]

Kevin O'Connell > Brian Daboll

A team with a better head coach is going to have a competitive advantage

The Vikings also banked on "smart" in their GM selection

Vikings GM-  Adofo-Mensah

A bachelor's degree in economics from Princeton, where he also played basketball. Adofo-Mensah received his master's degree in economics from Stanford.

Giants GM-  Joe Schoen

Schoen graduated from DePauw University in 2001 with a communications degree.

[T200]

Another vote for the QB being the biggest difference.

JJ was drafted to start while Darnold was brought in to be the backup.

Who knows how the season would have turned out for them if JJ didn't get injured.

Regardless, they're in a great spot in that they don't have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field.

[MightyGiants]

Good points, all of them.

And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team.

The picks that generally help a QB are O-line and receiver.  I can't see drafting either position as being "at the expense of the team"

The reality is that Joe Schoen's track record of drafting O-line is objectively bad.  His track record at WR is slightly better, thanks to Nabers.  2nd rounder Robinson has not lived up to his draft position. Hyatt is approaching bust status, as much as a 3rd rounder can "bust"


Also, has Schoen really sacrificed to try and improve the QB play?  Which of the "helps the QB picks" were also not in a position of need?


Picks that help a QB

Evan Neal
Wan'Dale Robinson
Joshua Ezeudu
Daniel Bellinger
Marcus McKethan
John Michael Schmitz
Jalin Hyatt
Malik Nabers
Theo Johnson

Picks that don't directly help a QB

Kayvon Thibodeaux
Cordale Flott
Dane Belton
D.J. Davidson
Darrian Beavers
Eric Gray
Tre Hawkins
Jordon Riley
Gervarrius Owens
Tyler Nubin
Andru Phillips
Tyrone Tracy Jr.
Darius Muasau

[MightyGiants]

Another vote for the QB being the biggest difference.

JJ was drafted to start while Darnold was brought in to be the backup.

Who knows how the season would have turned out for them if JJ didn't get injured.

Regardless, they're in a great spot in that they don't have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field.

It's not like the Vikings already had their franchise QB.  I am confused about the idea that the Giants were "burdened by their QB" when the Giants were in the same position as the Vikings in terms of acquiring both Darnold and JJ. 

You can say the Giants administration created their own handicap by not acquiring the QBs the Vikings did (although I doubt they would have played as well with NYG) but it's not like one team started off with a franchise QB and the other didn't or that the Vikings lucked into a high pick when there was elite QB prospects available to draft.

Both teams started even and the team with the better management pulled way ahead

[MrGap92]

Where someone got their degree is not relevant

Both have good NFL experience/history, far more valuable than their degree.

Asafos drafts have not been much better than Schoens, though he has hit on some FAs, and uncovered a quality UDFA in Ivan Pace, but he inherited a much more talented roster to begin with, he also didn't have to dig through cap hell as much either.

Though, to his credit, he has kept it afloat and they keep winning.

[T200]

It's not like the Vikings already had their franchise QB.  I am confused about the idea that the Giants were "burdened by their QB" when the Giants were in the same position as the Vikings in terms of acquiring both Darnold and JJ. 

You can say the Giants administration created their own handicap by not acquiring the QBs the Vikings did (although I doubt they would have played as well with NYG) but it's not like one team started off with a franchise QB and the other didn't or that the Vikings lucked into a high pick when there was elite QB prospects available to draft.

Both teams started even and the team with the better management pulled way ahead

You're right, Rich, in that neither team had their franchise QBs and both had a chance to take Darnold and McCarthy.

I can only surmise that, in NY, the owner was 100% sold on Jones but was open to Schoen getting a QB in the draft. In Minny, they knew Cousins needed to be replaced at some point and drafted McCarthy. No one saw this season from Darnold.

In both situations, they were looking to move on from their incumbent QBs. NY couldn't get the guy they wanted. Minnesota did.

[MrGap92]

You're right, Rich, in that neither team had their franchise QBs and both had a chance to take Darnold and McCarthy.

I can only surmise that, in NY, the owner was 100% sold on Jones but was open to Schoen getting a QB in the draft. In Minny, they knew Cousins needed to be replaced at some point and drafted McCarthy. No one saw this season from Darnold.

In both situations, they were looking to move on from their incumbent QBs. NY couldn't get the guy they wanted. Minnesota did.

Cousins, while not great, in MIN and WAS prior, still played at a much higher level than Jones ever has, and likely ever will. They also have had something Giants have not had before this year, elite WR options.

[MrGap92]

Here is Asafos drafts in Minnsota, I'd argue as of now, we have actually drafted better

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/draft.htm

Year    Rnd    Player    Pick    Pos    To    AP1    PB    St    wAV    G    Cmp    Att    Yds    TD    Int    Att    Yds    TD    Rec    Yds    TD    Int    Sk    College/Univ
2024    1    J.J. McCarthy    10    QB        0    0    0                                                                Michigan
2024    1    Dallas Turner    17    LB    2024    0    0    0    0    15    0    0    0    0    0            0            0    1    3.0    Alabama
2024    4    Khyree Jackson    108    DB        0    0    0                                                                Oregon
2024    6    Walter Rouse    177    OL    2024    0    0    0    0    1    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Oklahoma
2024    6    Will Reichard    203    K    2024    0    0    0    0    12    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Alabama
2024    7    Michael Jurgens    230    OL    2024    0    0    0    0    3    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Wake Forest
2024    7    Levi Drake Rodriguez    232    DT    2024    0    0    0    0    2    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Texas A&M-Commerce
Year    Rnd    Player    Pick    Pos    To    AP1    PB    St    wAV    G    Cmp    Att    Yds    TD    Int    Att    Yds    TD    Rec    Yds    TD    Int    Sk    College/Univ
2023    1    Jordan Addison    23    WR    2024    0    0    2    7    31    0    0    0    0    0    4    22    1    132    1786    19            USC
2023    3    Mekhi Blackmon    102    CB    2023    0    0    0    2    15    0    0    0    0    0            0            0    1        USC
2023    4    Jay Ward    134    S    2024    0    0    0    1    32    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            LSU
2023    5    Jaquelin Roy    141    DT    2024    0    0    0    1    18    0    0    0    0    0            0            0        2.0    LSU
2023    5    Jaren Hall    164    QB    2023    0    0    0    1    3    13    20    168    0    1    6    14    0            0            BYU
2023    7    DeWayne McBride    222    RB        0    0    0                                                                Ala-Birmingham
Year    Rnd    Player    Pick    Pos    To    AP1    PB    St    wAV    G    Cmp    Att    Yds    TD    Int    Att    Yds    TD    Rec    Yds    TD    Int    Sk    College/Univ
2022    1    Lewis Cine    32    DB    2024    0    0    0    0    11    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Georgia
2022    2    Andrew Booth    42    CB    2024    0    0    0    2    29    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Clemson
2022    2    Ed Ingram    59    G    2024    0    0    3    13    47    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            LSU
2022    3    Brian Asamoah    66    LB    2024    0    0    0    2    45    0    0    0    0    0            0            0            Oklahoma
2022    4    Akayleb Evans    118    DB    2024    0    0    1    6    33    0    0    0    0    0            0            0    1        Missouri
2022    5    Esezi Otomewo    165    DT    2024    0    0    0    0    9    0    0    0    0    0            0            0        0.5    Minnesota
2022    5    Ty Chandler    169    RB    2024    0    0    0    4    36    0    0    0    0    0    164    663    3    27    201    0            North Carolina
2022    6    Vederian Lowe    184    OL    2024    0    0    1    3    28    0    0    0    0    0            0    1    4    1            Illinois
2022    6    Jalen Nailor    191    WR    2024    0    0    0    1    37    0    0    0    0    0    3    -4    0    37    569    7            Michigan St.
2022    7    Nick Muse    227    TE    2024    0    0    0    0    16    0    0    0    0    0            0    1    22    0            South Carolina

[EDjohnst1981]

Better play at the most important position is the most telling thing here.

Still, excuse after excuse. This place is getting tiring.

[katkavage]

Was the opening day debacle all on Jones? Daboll's lack of preparation had nothing to do with it. While O'Connell had his team ready to play on the road. I was the biggest Jones basher here but to ignore all the other issues is blindness.