Shane Bowen

[Brooklyn Dave]

Don't you find it interesting that Mike Vrabel did not reach out to Shane Bowen to be his DC with the Patriots ?

After all he was his DC at Tennessee.

I think it shows that maybe at best we have an average DC which goes along with our HC

[Philosophers]

Don't you find it interesting that Mike Vrabel did not reach out to Shane Bowen to be his DC with the Patriots ?

After all he was his DC at Tennessee.

I think it shows that maybe at best we have an average DC which goes along with our HC

Hard to say.  Maybe Bowen just told him during the season he likes living in the NYC area.

[MightyGiants]

Vrabel went with Terrell Williams.  Vrabel worked with Williams (as well as Bowen) at the Titans.  Williams doesn't have a really impressive resume, so it appeared that Vrabel simply preferred Williams over Bowen.  One thing that was interesting was that Williams (who was a D-line coach at the time) was given the Assistant Head Coach title (while retaining his D-line duties) over DC Bown and OC Kelly during the Titan's 2023 season.

[ozzie]

Could also be that it would just be a lateral move and figured the Giants would block the interview anyway.

[MrGap92]

Don't you find it interesting that Mike Vrabel did not reach out to Shane Bowen to be his DC with the Patriots ?

After all he was his DC at Tennessee.

I think it shows that maybe at best we have an average DC which goes along with our HC

They would have to make him assistant head coach to bring him in I think. You can't just freely sign other coordinators for the same exact role at will.

[LennG]

If any other team wants him, can we throw in a draft pick as an incentive.
    

[Jclayton92]

I don't know why everyone was so down on Bpwen, in year one he had the dline on pace to break sack records until injuries. The offense was so bad it put the defense in bad spots. In year 2 if he gets a run stopping D tackle, and a number 1 corner  I think you see massive improvement.

[TDToomer]

I don't know why everyone was so down on Bpwen, in year one he had the dline on pace to break sack records until injuries. The offense was so bad it put the defense in bad spots. In year 2 if he gets a run stopping D tackle, and a number 1 corner  I think you see massive improvement.

For me it is because of how soft his players are. They aren't taught proper tackling techniques that we are seeing throughout the playoffs. The lack of ball hawking instincts is alarming. Maybe it is the players too. 

[MightyGiants]

I don't know why everyone was so down on Bpwen, in year one he had the dline on pace to break sack records until injuries. The offense was so bad it put the defense in bad spots. In year 2 if he gets a run stopping D tackle, and a number 1 corner  I think you see massive improvement.

Jess,

I think one big issue for me is that Bowen finally started to stop the run in week 13.  After losing Dex, he started to employ more four-man fronts (prior he ran a lot of 2 man and 3 man).   Why did it take until week 13 and the injury to Dex to finally fix the problem.

[Jclayton92]

For me it is because of how soft his players are. They aren't taught proper tackling techniques that we are seeing throughout the playoffs. The lack of ball hawking instincts is alarming. Maybe it is the players too. 

Yeah Banks and Jackson are the wrong corners for Ball hawking, that's just not their game.

[kingm56]

Don't you find it interesting that Mike Vrabel did not reach out to Shane Bowen to be his DC with the Patriots ?

After all he was his DC at Tennessee.

I think it shows that maybe at best we have an average DC which goes along with our HC

If he's average, how do you explain these better than average results:

2021 Season
Role: Officially named Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 20.8 (6th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 329.8 (12th in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense (allowed 84.6 yards per game, 2nd in the NFL)

2022 Season
Role: Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 21.1 (13th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 351.6 (23rd in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense remained stout (3rd in the NFL), but pass defense slipped to the bottom of the league.

It's almost as if his abilities are directly tied to the talent.  With talent, he seems to produce top 10 results; without it, he's a terrible coach that nobody wants...just like EVERY coordinator. 

[nb587]

Don't you find it interesting that Mike Vrabel did not reach out to Shane Bowen to be his DC with the Patriots ?

After all he was his DC at Tennessee.

I think it shows that maybe at best we have an average DC which goes along with our HC

Did Vrabel say that he did not reach out to Bowen?  If he didn't say, and I think that's probably the case, why say it's though it's a fact?  Could be he reached out and Bowen turned him down; could be the Giants blocked an attempt; could be Bowen is paid more than the Titans would pay for a DC; could be alot of things.  It sure isn't a fact

[Brooklyn Dave]

If he's average, how do you explain these better than average results:

2021 Season
Role: Officially named Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 20.8 (6th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 329.8 (12th in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense (allowed 84.6 yards per game, 2nd in the NFL)

2022 Season
Role: Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 21.1 (13th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 351.6 (23rd in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense remained stout (3rd in the NFL), but pass defense slipped to the bottom of the league.

It's almost as if his abilities are directly tied to the talent.  With talent, he seems to produce top 10 results; without it, he's a terrible coach that nobody wants...just like EVERY coordinator. 

When he was hired , it was said that his specialty was stopping the run . How did that go with a healthy Dexter Lawrence ? I , obviously, am  not an insider to Giants hire, but do you honestly believe that Shane Bowen was our first choice  for a DC ?

[MightyGiants]

If he's average, how do you explain these better than average results:

2021 Season
Role: Officially named Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 20.8 (6th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 329.8 (12th in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense (allowed 84.6 yards per game, 2nd in the NFL)

2022 Season
Role: Defensive Coordinator
Points Allowed Per Game: 21.1 (13th in the NFL)
Total Yards Allowed Per Game: 351.6 (23rd in the NFL)
Notable Strength: Rush Defense remained stout (3rd in the NFL), but pass defense slipped to the bottom of the league.

It's almost as if his abilities are directly tied to the talent.  With talent, he seems to produce top 10 results; without it, he's a terrible coach that nobody wants...just like EVERY coordinator. 

Matt,

How can you make any claims when no one, including yourself, knows how much Vrabel was involved with the defense?   I know you have been on this coaching doesn't matter crusade for years, but let's try and be fair in terms of the data you use to support that belief.  Plus, just as @T200 called me out for, no one says talent doesn't matter.   Coaching and talent BOTH matter.

[kingm56]

When he was hired , it was said that his specialty was stopping the run . How did that go with a healthy Dexter Lawrence ? I , obviously, am  not an insider to Giants hire, but do you honestly believe that Shane Bowen was our first choice  for a DC ?

When someone responds to a question with another question, they often deflect, reframe the conversation, or attempt to maintain control of the dialogue rather than examining whether their initial assumptions are valid. This tendency can obscure critical points—like how a defensive coordinator with supposedly average skills could repeatedly achieve multiple top-five rankings.

A key consideration is the disproportionate emphasis sometimes placed on a single player's (e.g. Dex) impact. If an individual defender only takes part in roughly 62% of the total snaps, it is difficult to credit or fault the coordinator's overall ability based on one athlete. Take the New York Giants' run defense as an example: they have consistently ranked near the bottom of the league for the past five years, including under the highly regarded Wink Martindale. Despite his reputation, Martindale oversaw 25th- and 27th-place finishes in run defense with the Giants. Historically, he excelled when paired with elite talent—producing multiple top-five defenses—but when that talent diminished, performance slipped, eventually leading to his dismissal. When joining a roster with below-average talent, Martindale's defensive units again languished in the bottom tier, suggesting that the talent level, more than coaching alone, largely dictates outcomes. This is consistent with literally hundreds of supporting examples; yet, fans continue to talk about coaches as if their an equal part of the equation. 

Mike Vrabel's tenure with the Tennessee Titans further supports this argument. While he led multiple double-digit win seasons when surrounded by top-tier personnel, the loss of key players—specifically an aging quarterback and the NFL's best running backs—coincided with the team sliding to 7-10 and 6-11, ultimately costing him his position. It seems improbable that he simply "forgot" how to coach; a more plausible explanation is that diminished talent undermined his record. The correlation is clear: despite a coach's reputation or strategy, undermanned rosters rarely yield elite results.  I'd also caution against giving Vrabel credit for Bowen's defense, as he suffered the same fate when free agency and injury robbed him of talent.  In his final season, the Titans were the 19th ranked defense.

Ultimately, while coaching strategies and leadership do matter, the evidence strongly suggests that high-level talent is the primary driver of top-tier performance. Coordinators like Bowen, Martindale, or Vrabel may orchestrate stellar defenses when they have the right personnel, but even the most skilled coaches struggle to produce even average results with average or below-average talent. Can you honestly state Bowen has enjoyed even better than average talent during his tenure with the Giants?