Todd McShay does a long program on the Giants and the QB class

[MightyGiants]

it's very long, but it's a plethora of great information on the Giant's draft options and the QB class.  I am including the time index if you don't want to listen to the whole thing.  There is also a podcast if you prefer to listen that way.

Welcome back to The McShay Show! Todd and Steve open by breaking down the Giants' Russell Wilson signing and what the move could mean for New York's draft plans. Then, they dive deep into Todd's quarterback tiers and talk traits, tape, comps, red flags, and more.

0:00 Welcome to The McShay Show!
1:39 The Browns Meeting with Cam Ward
10:45 Russell Wilson Signs with the Giants
22:45 How will the Browns Draft at #2?
28:18 Why the #3 Pick is so Crucial for the Giants
43:17 Todd's QB Prospect Tiers
49:37 Deep Dive: Cam Ward [QB 1]
59:40 Deep Dive: Shedeur Sanders [QB 2]
1:12:45 Deep Dive: Jaxson Dart [QB 3]
1:23:42 Deep Dive: Tyler Shough [QB 4]
1:32:38 Deep Dive: Jalen Milroe [QB 5]
1:38:42 Deep Dive: Will Howard [QB 6]

[Jclayton92]

I'd be over the moon with Travis Hunter and Jaxson Dart.

[Philosophers]

I am so frustrated with the Giants O that Hunter would be nice to play WR primarily and two OL over rounds 2-4.

[katkavage]

I listened to The Athletic QB show and came away not wanting Sanders or Dart at all. Maybe Shough. Milroe is intriguing because if he fails as a QB he might transition into a RB. He could be used as a weapon on select plays. What is most evident is the Giants won't find their QB of the future in 2025. Good thing they beat the Colts and improved team culture.

[MightyGiants]

I listened to The Athletic QB show and came away not wanting Sanders or Dart at all. Maybe Shough. Milroe is intriguing because if he fails as a QB he might transition into a RB. He could be used as a weapon on select plays. What is most evident is the Giants won't find their QB of the future in 2025. Good thing they beat the Colts and improved team culture.

I thought they were overly harsh on Dart.  Here is McShay's take:


Jaxson Dart, Ole Miss (6-foot-2, 223 pounds)
Dart has NFL starter traits and makeup, although he may need some time to adjust to the pros. If he refines his footwork, he could improve his accuracy—but it's already pretty impressive. He's mobile and tough, often making difficult throws while taking hits. He made some mental errors, but I think he can clean them up at the next level. Dart should be a first-round pick, although in the middle or later portion of the round.

Universal Football Traits                       
Production: 1
Size-Speed Ratio: 2                     
Durability: 1
Intangibles: 1

Quarterback-Specific Traits
Mental Makeup: 2   
Accuracy: 1.5
Release/Arm Strength: 2
Pocket Mobility: 1.5

Top Traits

Accuracy: Dart's ball placement is very good, and the issues he does have in this area should be easily correctable with more consistent footwork. His ability to naturally spot the ball and lead receivers using anticipation is near the top tier. You can see his touch, timing, and placement littered throughout his tape. The more I watch, the more I appreciate his natural accuracy as a passer. His receivers dropped a lot of passes—stats don't tell the story with this guy.

Demeanor under pressure: I love how Dart hangs tough under pressure and delivers the football. Zero flinch in this guy.

Pocket presence: Dart is sudden in the pocket. He frequently evades the rush while keeping his eyes downfield. His "vs. pressure" tape is really enlightening. Dart hangs tough and makes difficult throws with defenders hitting him, and his ball placement under pressure is remarkable at times. He's got some Josh Allen in his game.

Arm talent: Dart's arm strength is good to great, and the ball snaps off his hand. He puts good energy into the ball, especially when he steps into the throw. He can drive it vertically with ease and gets good zip even when throwing off-balance.

Release: He gets the ball out in a flash in the quick game. Easy stuff is easy for him.

Reading defenses: He does a good job of reading coverages. On the whole, he understands concepts and what defenses are throwing at him. He checked out of negative plays more in 2024. Dart appears very capable of setting protections and knows how to slide on his drops accordingly.

Toughness: DAWG competitor. Dart tucks and runs when he needs to. He'll take hit after hit and sacrifice it all for his team. He showed high-level stuff as a competitor against LSU, Georgia, and even Florida (despite inexcusable decisions at the end of that game). He's just a gamer.

Mobility: Dart is a plus athlete with impressive maneuverability in the pocket. He's quick to avoid sacks and extend plays. He's a more than capable runner, too.

Limitations and Areas for Improvement

Footwork: He needs to drill the ball home and stay balanced with his feet under him.

Mental errors: His occasional mental errors need to be cleaned up. Ole Miss's loss to Florida in 2024 will be remembered for the two interceptions he threw on the team's final two drives.

College system: Dart may need a full year to learn the intricacies of NFL offenses. Lane Kiffin's system at Ole Miss featured a lot of predetermined reads.

Release point: Balls batted at the line of scrimmage could be an issue for Dart in the NFL. He saw three combined passes batted down at the line of scrimmage against Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina.

[katkavage]

I thought they were overly harsh on Dart.  Here is McShay's take:


Jaxson Dart, Ole Miss (6-foot-2, 223 pounds)
Dart has NFL starter traits and makeup, although he may need some time to adjust to the pros. If he refines his footwork, he could improve his accuracy—but it's already pretty impressive. He's mobile and tough, often making difficult throws while taking hits. He made some mental errors, but I think he can clean them up at the next level. Dart should be a first-round pick, although in the middle or later portion of the round.

Universal Football Traits                       
Production: 1
Size-Speed Ratio: 2                     
Durability: 1
Intangibles: 1

Quarterback-Specific Traits
Mental Makeup: 2   
Accuracy: 1.5
Release/Arm Strength: 2
Pocket Mobility: 1.5

Top Traits

Accuracy: Dart's ball placement is very good, and the issues he does have in this area should be easily correctable with more consistent footwork. His ability to naturally spot the ball and lead receivers using anticipation is near the top tier. You can see his touch, timing, and placement littered throughout his tape. The more I watch, the more I appreciate his natural accuracy as a passer. His receivers dropped a lot of passes—stats don't tell the story with this guy.

Demeanor under pressure: I love how Dart hangs tough under pressure and delivers the football. Zero flinch in this guy.

Pocket presence: Dart is sudden in the pocket. He frequently evades the rush while keeping his eyes downfield. His "vs. pressure" tape is really enlightening. Dart hangs tough and makes difficult throws with defenders hitting him, and his ball placement under pressure is remarkable at times. He's got some Josh Allen in his game.

Arm talent: Dart's arm strength is good to great, and the ball snaps off his hand. He puts good energy into the ball, especially when he steps into the throw. He can drive it vertically with ease and gets good zip even when throwing off-balance.

Release: He gets the ball out in a flash in the quick game. Easy stuff is easy for him.

Reading defenses: He does a good job of reading coverages. On the whole, he understands concepts and what defenses are throwing at him. He checked out of negative plays more in 2024. Dart appears very capable of setting protections and knows how to slide on his drops accordingly.

Toughness: DAWG competitor. Dart tucks and runs when he needs to. He'll take hit after hit and sacrifice it all for his team. He showed high-level stuff as a competitor against LSU, Georgia, and even Florida (despite inexcusable decisions at the end of that game). He's just a gamer.

Mobility: Dart is a plus athlete with impressive maneuverability in the pocket. He's quick to avoid sacks and extend plays. He's a more than capable runner, too.

Limitations and Areas for Improvement

Footwork: He needs to drill the ball home and stay balanced with his feet under him.

Mental errors: His occasional mental errors need to be cleaned up. Ole Miss's loss to Florida in 2024 will be remembered for the two interceptions he threw on the team's final two drives.

College system: Dart may need a full year to learn the intricacies of NFL offenses. Lane Kiffin's system at Ole Miss featured a lot of predetermined reads.

Release point: Balls batted at the line of scrimmage could be an issue for Dart in the NFL. He saw three combined passes batted down at the line of scrimmage against Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina.

I think they were very worried because he only knew one system and it's the antithesis of an NFL system. They did say he's worth taking if you let him sit a year or two to learn the complexities of the NFL. But not before the second round.

[MightyGiants]

I think they were very worried because he only knew one system and it's the antithesis of an NFL system. They did say he's worth taking if you let him sit a year or two to learn the complexities of the NFL. But not before the second round.

What I found strange is I heard so many draft pundits say that the system Dart was in was different.  Yet, I heard Chris Simms (who knows football) talk about how many pro concepts Dart ran. 

[katkavage]

What I found strange is I heard so many draft pundits say that the system Dart was in was different.  Yet, I heard Chris Simms (who knows football) talk about how many pro concepts Dart ran. 

Those guys on the Athletic are pretty good. They know their stuff.

[MightyGiants]

Those guys on the Athletic are pretty good. They know their stuff.

I have spent the last two draft seasons laser-focused on QBs.  One thing I find is that the evaluation of QBs is almost always skewed by what the evaluator values in QBs.   There is no consensus as to which trait is most important in a QB.   Some value arm talent, others processing speed, others the "IT" factor, others mobility, others improve ability, and so on.

Here's an example: I think @Ed Vette is a really good QB evaluator.   That said, from the years of hearing his comments on QBs, I know he values a strong arm.  I think it's fair to say strong-armed QBs will be viewed more favorably by Ed. That's not to say he isn't factoring in other elements.  It's just the reality when you are evaluating and ranking a position as complex and interconnected as QB.


That all said, listening to the podcast, there was one trait they identified that they felt Dart was deficient in (I am not sure I remember exactly what the trait was, something about mental flexibility), and that seemed to doom him among the three of them.

[katkavage]

I have spent the last two draft seasons laser-focused on QBs.  One thing I find is that the evaluation of QBs is almost always skewed by what the evaluator values in QBs.   There is no consensus as to which trait is most important in a QB.   Some value arm talent, others processing speed, others the "IT" factor, others mobility, others improve ability, and so on.

Here's an example: I think @Ed Vette is a really good QB evaluator.   That said, from the years of hearing his comments on QBs, I know he values a strong arm.  I think it's fair to say strong-armed QBs will be viewed more favorably by Ed. That's not to say he isn't factoring in other elements.  It's just the reality when you are evaluating and ranking a position as complex and interconnected as QB.


That all said, listening to the podcast, there was one trait they identified that they felt Dart was deficient in (I am not sure I remember exactly what the trait was, something about mental flexibility), and that seemed to doom him among the three of them.

I don't think it would doom him, but definitely not as a top pick. Maybe he will find success in the right system. You never know. Either way, unless Ward was the pick, you aren't getting a franchise QB in this draft I don't think.

[Ed Vette]

I thought McShay did an excellent job evaluating each QB and he supported his points with stats and what he learned through intel. The only QB that I thought he may shortchanged was Howard, only because he saw him as a ready made backup. It's very possible Howard just had it all hit him with an epiphany at the end of the season, because that was some of the best QB play of the year. If he had another year left, I wonder if he would be the top dawg in 2026.

As for Dart, I too was very disappointed in that Florida game with the three crazy passes. Yet, it was completely out of character for what he did all game and all season. I get the system he was in and it was some of the best designed plays of any team. But it wasn't all one read intended receivers.  Think he does sometimes but not consistently struggle getting through his reads but some of that is footwork in the drop, and as JT O'Sullivan pointed out, his first read is checking the pass rush and that can be corrected. They ran either 3x1 or 2X2 and most QBs will work one side of the field and one go to the backside when the first two are covered. It's not his fault that his initial reads were schemed open. I think he's the perfect QB for Daboll who likes to mix in some QB runs and allows for the QB to improvise and hit the A Gaps or go off platform. He is great under pressure. The best of all QBs in this class. That's so important at the next level when that pass has to get off in less than 2.5 seconds and his completion percentage under pressure is the dichotomy of what Daboll had to work with. The fact is that the Giants Receivers are built for 10+ air yards and Dart is that guy, and the Oline will be middle of the pack at best in Pass Pro.

I like Shough but as I said, he hasn't played enough games so the experience isn't there for me because he had season ending injuries. Tough kid, big kid, but is he just fragile? I don't know.

I like Cam Ward, but he won't be there for the Giants and I actually think Dart has the higher ceiling. But if he's there at three, the Giants would surprise me if they didn't make the pick in less than 2.5 seconds.

[MightyGiants]

I thought McShay did an excellent job evaluating each QB and he supported his points with stats and what he learned through intel. The only QB that I thought he may shortchanged was Howard, only because he saw him as a ready made backup. It's very possible Howard just had it all hit him with an epiphany at the end of the season, because that was some of the best QB play of the year. If he had another year left, I wonder if he would be the top dawg in 2026.

As for Dart, I too was very disappointed in that Florida game with the three crazy passes. Yet, it was completely out of character for what he did all game and all season. I get the system he was in and it was some of the best designed plays of any team. But it wasn't all one read intended receivers.  Think he does sometimes but not consistently struggle getting through his reads but some of that is footwork in the drop, and as JT O'Sullivan pointed out, his first read is checking the pass rush and that can be corrected. They ran either 3x1 or 2X2 and most QBs will work one side of the field and one go to the backside when the first two are covered. It's not his fault that his initial reads were schemed open. I think he's the perfect QB for Daboll who likes to mix in some QB runs and allows for the QB to improvise and hit the A Gaps or go off platform. He is great under pressure. The best of all QBs in this class. That's so important at the next level when that pass has to get off in less than 2.5 seconds and his completion percentage under pressure is the dichotomy of what Daboll had to work with. The fact is that the Giants Receivers are built for 10+ air yards and Dart is that guy, and the Oline will be middle of the pack at best in Pass Pro.

I like Shough but as I said, he hasn't played enough games so the experience isn't there for me because he had season ending injuries. Tough kid, big kid, but is he just fragile? I don't know.

I like Cam Ward, but he won't be there for the Giants and I actually think Dart has the higher ceiling. But if he's there at three, the Giants would surprise me if they didn't make the pick in less than 2.5 seconds.

My biggest issue with Schough is he will be 26 early in the season.   Say they sit him this year, he would get his start at age 27.   Figure you would have 6 years in his prime 27 - 32.  I know there are QBs that stay strong until their late 30s, but after 32 you can't be sure a QB will not start to decline.

Now, that's looking at it through the pure lens of drafting.  On the other hand, it's possible the Giants would have given up that 2nd round pick for Stafford, who likely has 2 years left.  So is a 2nd rounder too much to pay for a QB you would have to start for at least 6 seasons?

As for Dart, I would be more than happy if NYG trades back into round one to grab him.

[nb587]

Thanks for the heads up on the podcast.  This is what really bothered me about his thinking.  A generational player should always be taken ahead of an "ordinary" player even a QB.  If you add Hunter to a WR room that includes Nabors, even if they use Hunter part time or on 3rd downs or whatever, even an ordinary QB will have success.  According to McShay, its looking like it'll be Hunter or Sanders or Hunter or Carter and he would take Hunter over Sanders. I hope Schoen and Daboll are thinking the same.  But he mentioned that Mara might make the pick and probably take Sanders.  He also mentioned that he thought or heard that Prime is talking to Mara and not talking to Schoen.

If it happened that way, it would probably be the kick in the butt I need to changr my allegiance and I have been a die hard fan since 1956.  I can root for a team that stinks but i can't root for a team run by a moron.