Could we have obtained Dart without trading up?

[londonblue]

Doc,the difference between this draft and the DJ draft was Gettleman fell in love at the Senior Bowl and made his mind up. Our evaluation was done, everything else was box ticking. This time around the process has been exhaustive. We can pretty much be certain there has been vigorous debate and robust exchanges (given the number of different reports from different commentators on differences of opinion). Ultimately this all landed on Dart.

A better process does not guarantee a better outcome than with DJ but it is at least a step in the right direction IMO.

[Bob In PA]

Bob, like everyone else here, I have no idea. However, it struck me that the Giants apparently saw a huge gulf in their perceived value of Ward and Dart. I don't think they would've valued Ward in the same ballpark as the top-3 QBs last year, so I'm not sure where that leaves Dart.

What we know for sure is the Giants valued Dart more than they valued Sanders and the others. I'm not sure that tells us as much as people want to believe it tells us. This is sort of a repeat of the Daniel Jones draft where we hope a guy with tools can be molded into something more. Time will tell.

Doc: IMO the factor distinguishing Dart from Ward is that Ward is a more or less "finished product" and will likely start by mid-season, if not right away. No one anywhere that I've seen has said Dart is ready to take the field, because he played in mostly college "gimmick" offenses.

The fact that coach Lane Kiffin put a few pro-offense-type packages in the Old Miss offense especially for Dart (probably fulfilling a promise to do so in exchange for Dart agreeing to attend Ole Miss) is IMO the biggest (and possibly only) reason the Giants stuck their neck out yesterday.

I can't distinguish Dart from Daniel Jones because I have no idea WHAT the Giants were thinking when they drafted Jones so high, but IMO the similarities (at least physically) between the two are significant. One noteworthy difference is that whatever was "wrong" with Jones was never officially specified by anyone connected with the Giants (to my knowledge) while it is acknowledged almost universally that Dart needs time to get up-to-speed in certain areas which have been defined. In other words, Dart has a ceiling he is nowhere near as of today, and the Giants believe that when he hit's it, it will become clear why they took the gamble yesterday.

Bob

[Doc16LT56]

Doc,the difference between this draft and the DJ draft was Gettleman fell in love at the Senior Bowl and made his mind up. Our evaluation was done, everything else was box ticking. This time around the process has been exhaustive. We can pretty much be certain there has been vigorous debate and robust exchanges (given the number of different reports from different commentators on differences of opinion). Ultimately this all landed on Dart.

A better process does not guarantee a better outcome than with DJ but it is at least a step in the right direction IMO.

I agree wholeheartedly. Gettleman snubbed the premier pass rusher to get a flawed QB with some potential in a weak QB class. This regime was smart enough to secure the premier pass rusher first, and then circled back for the flawed QB with some potential in a weak QB class.

I will give Gettlemen credit for following up the disastrous Jones pick with Dexter Lawrence. So the talent value for the Giants is similar between the two draft classes. The process, as you correctly pointed out, was professional and thorough this year.

[Bob In PA]

The risk wasn't worth the 99 and a 2026 3rd.

Thats legit; I'm just fine with that. 

Honestly to land the 2nd QB in the draft it is a hell of a deal.

Hi Chris: Considering that we have no other young prospect, it's certainly a good thing that they got one. Second QB over all is great, but there wasn't much competition. Ordinarily I'd be concerned, but necks are on the line, so I believe that the Giants believe in Dart and will be rooting for him 100 percent. Bob

[Doc16LT56]

Doc: IMO the factor distinguishing Dart from Ward is that Ward is a more or less "finished product" and will likely start by mid-season, if not right away. No one anywhere that I've seen has said Dart is ready to take the field, because he played in mostly college "gimmick" offenses.

The fact that coach Lane Kiffin put a few pro-offense-type packages in the Old Miss offense especially for Dart (probably fulfilling a promise to do so in exchange for Dart agreeing to attend Ole Miss) is IMO the biggest (and possibly only) reason the Giants stuck their neck out yesterday.

I can't distinguish Dart from Daniel Jones because I have no idea WHAT the Giants were thinking when they drafted Jones so high, but IMO the similarities (at least physically) between the two are significant. One noteworthy difference is that whatever was "wrong" with Jones was never officially specified by anyone connected with the Giants (to my knowledge) while it is acknowledged almost universally that Dart needs time to get up-to-speed in certain areas which have been defined. In other words, Dart has a ceiling he is nowhere near as of today, and the Giants believe that when he hit's it, it will become clear why they took the gamble yesterday.

Bob

I agree with this take. My issue is whether Daboll will be given the time to try and develop Dart. I think it was Boomer this morning who said Daboll gets two bites at the apple. He can win now with Wilson in the first half of the season, or he can show potential with Dart in the second half of the season. If he isn't able to accomplish either of the two, I'm not sure how he survives to 2026.

[Bob In PA]

The thing I takeaway from the noise/smoke is that McVey and Kellen Moore both wanted to work with Dart, and that should make people excited.

J: And Kiffin was willing to "bend" a bit (putting in some pro packages, which is a heck of a thing for a college coach to do, IMO). College coaches have enough problems just getting everyone to pay attention to the details of ONE offensive system, let alone having to put in extra work needed to run something completely different. Bob

[Bob In PA]

I agree with this take. My issue is whether Daboll will be given the time to try and develop Dart. I think it was Boomer this morning who said Daboll gets two bites at the apple. He can win now with Wilson in the first half of the season, or he can show potential with Dart in the second half of the season. If he isn't able to accomplish either of the two, I'm not sure how he survives to 2026.

Doc: Ah, someone finally came around to the "dark corner" in this issue. Is is possible Daboll pushed extra hard for Dart because he (and everyone else) knew the kid was a "2-year" project, and the last thing Giants want is to change coaches in the middle of a 2-year project... if you see the picture I'm painting. Bob

[DaveBrown74]

We'll of course never know, but my personal view is that the odds we would have gotten Dart at 34 were something in the 65-75% range. If I'm right about that, we absolutely did the right thing to trade up, assuming Schoen/Daboll legitimately believe in his potential and weren't just forcing this out of desperation. I'm choosing to believe they really believe they can turn him into something legit, so this was the right move. Quite honestly, it was the right move even if they thought the odds were 80 or 90%. The Saints were reportedly hot on him and could have jumped them at 34. If he was the guy you had to have, you don't take even a small risk of that for this kind of trade cost.

[Bob In PA]

We'll of course never know, but my personal view is that the odds we would have gotten Dart at 34 were something in the 65-75% range. If I'm right about that, we absolutely did the right thing to trade up, assuming Schoen/Daboll legitimately believe in his potential and weren't just forcing this out of desperation. I'm choosing to believe they really believe they can turn him into something legit, so this was the right move. Quite honestly, it was the right move even if they thought the odds were 80 or 90%. The Saints were reportedly hot on him and could have jumped them at 34. If he was the guy you had to have, you don't take even a small risk of that for this kind of trade cost.

DB: The fact that the Saints did not take any QB was also a key in my thinking.

The fact that the Steelers also passed made me even more certain.

But you have to hand it to Schoen... if indeed the Rams (or whomever) were secretly interested in Dart, then the move was brilliant... unless, of course, Dart proves to be a dud.

Bob

[Crypto Fareez]

Crypto: Nice post. As for Dart's potential, IMO our coaches will know long before the next draft whether they made a mistake, although, considering how long the fooled around with Jones trying to make it work, I can see very clearly WHY you raise the point. Hopefully, they too will still remember how much it cost them to "be loyal" and keep trying in vain to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and move on. One more thing I like about the Dart pick. I do see him and can almost guarantee that the worst we'll get out of him is still good enough to be a long-term backup quarterback, so he'll still come in handy. Bob

This is my issue with the Giants over the last 10 years or so.
Ereck Flowers, Evan Neal, Daniel Jones, Noshame Ximenes, heck even Shane Lemieux. I could go on and on.

Part of being successful in say a business or organization, even a marriage lol is going when to cut bait.
It's not hard to say, "hey this isn't working out". Guys like Jalin Hyatt too. We don't need them to take up resources and roster spots when anyone who has watched the game knows it's not gonna work. But they always just hold onto guys and trot them out there. It's very frustrating. But I do admit, New York is not for everyone, especially at qb. It takes a certain makeup and most don't have it. On top of that you have to be good as well. There are really only 12 or so good NFL qb's on the planet currently. So it gets a bit dicey there. I just wish the best for Dart and his success with us. But please, don't run him out as starting qb and pay him 50 million or whatever in 5 years if he ceiling is game manager. Thats what scares me about this team.

[Stringer Bell]

Jolly: You're right about "lyin' season" lol so we'll never know.

I think for all the reasons stated above it is highly likely staying put (or even trading up to 32).

However, I still would not have done it. I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW.

Bob

Thinking we overpaid is totally reasonable. I don't agree, but it's not a ridiculous opinion or anything.

But to me, the reason why you feel that way "I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW" doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't think we're competing for a title in 2025 under any circumstances. So what does it matter if your QB of the future sits for a year and soaks up all the knowledge he can?

Do you believe that if we traded up for the right guy, we would be in a position to contend?

[spiderblue43]

No..But that is speculative..of course. Rams traded out immediately..so I don't believe it was a coincidence..but the price wasn't bad..reasonable..and this is on Daboll now to prove himself..too. I'm okay with it...they had to take a swing..

Bobby loves Milroe more..I never have. No Milroe is even a bigger swing..and Saban was glowing about Dart...let's hope..understandable move.

[Bob In PA]

Thinking we overpaid is totally reasonable. I don't agree, but it's not a ridiculous opinion or anything.

But to me, the reason why you feel that way "I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW" doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't think we're competing for a title in 2025 under any circumstances. So what does it matter if your QB of the future sits for a year and soaks up all the knowledge he can?

Do you believe that if we traded up for the right guy, we would be in a position to contend?

Stringer: By the way, I never said we paid too much. Yes, people can differ, but I don't think we overpaid in terms of what picks we gave up. But IMO whether a player is ready to start now ALSO affects the evaluation of the trade. To say it backwards, there was a hidden cost to trading up for Dart beyond the picks. It's similar to drafting a player who's injured and you know he can't play this year. That player goes lower in the draft. Example: the Eagles got a guy who would have been in the top ten (at pick 31) because he has two bad shoulders and at least one needs surgery.

As for the topic, I just wondered if people thought Dart would have lasted through the first round, and the answer almost unanimously is "no" (for all of the various reasons they stated above).

Bob

[files58]

To answer the threads question, No. It appears by the Rams' actions they were prepared to take Dart. I don't understand the feeling of some that we overpaid. It's a swap of nine spots upwards, plus a gift pick from the league that we regifted, and a third next year. Compared to what Atlanta gave up Schoen committed larceny. We now have the perfect set up to develop a QB the way Daboll always envisioned, and gained the 5th year option by being a rd. 1 pick. That was never going to happen with Jones. B/t/w some with opinions that matter think we drafted the best player in the draft earlier. We always win with defense here, and we got a Daniels/Hurts/Dak hunter in Carter. Need a stout DT, and a thumping LB.

[AZGiantFan]

Another perspective is that they had to trade up not only to assure getting him, but also to assure getting the 5th year option.  In a sense the 5th year option offsets him having to sit for a year.