If the Beatles never existed

[Jolly Blue Giant]

All us old timers know how music changed dramatically when the Beatles came out of nowhere and overwhelmed teens and adults alike. Who can forget the girls screaming, crying, wetting their pants, holding their heads while panting, unable to catch their breath, and squatting as though they can't believe they are actually seeing them in person. I watched girls on the school bus getting into fights because one said she was going to marry Paul, and another countered with, "no you're not, I am...you can have Ringo", and voilà, CAT FIGHT...or maybe it should be called "kitten fight", etc. To call it wild is the understatement of the year. In a matter of a few years, each one of the Beatles were the most famous people in the world. Everyone knew each member of the band, like it was as common as knowing the alphabet. Few people, outside diehard music fans know the names of each member of a band...not even the Rolling Stones

Sooo...my question is: "if NOT for the Beatles, who or what band would have defined the 60's?"

In my ever so humble opinion, I think it's a 3-way tie between The Beach Boys, The Rolling Stones, or the Who. And personally, I lean towards The Beach Boys, who epitomized young life in the U.S.A. I can't imagine the teens in London knew anything about surfing, hot rods, drive-ins, '57 Chevys, or what the heck was a "409" (which in fact should be reclassified as a boat anchor, but I digress), etc. But that's just my opinion, which are like...(fill in the blank here)....

What say you?

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Well...I'll dig into it and put in my two centavos (worth much less than two U.S. cents, BTW)

When the Beatles released "Love Me Do" in 1964, and "P.S. I Love You" about the same time, it introduced the U.S. to the group few had ever heard of. They made a splash, but didn't create the craziest fandom with those songs. Those songs had been released two years earlier in England, but their music didn't cross the ocean until '64. After their first two dropped, then came "Please Mr. Postman" and "She Loves You" and the floodgates opened with fans going crazy

Their songs were bouncy with a steady rhythm, but not bubblegum type music. It was similar to the Beach Boys, The Who, The Rolling Stones, Dave Clark Five, Paul Revere and the Raiders, etc., at a time when Motown was also big in the states. Furthermore, the U.S. was up to their necks in the Vietnam War causing music to drift towards antiwar songs

But the Beatles left the other bands in the rearview mirror in 1967 when they dropped "Tomorrow Never Ends", followed by "Strawberry Fields Forever", followed by the album, "Magical Mystery Tour". They had abandoned the steady rhythm of typical rock songs and became creative, using a variety of different instruments as well as mixing up offbeat drumming and non-triad style chords mixed with unusual minor keynotes and an aura of psychedelic sounds. Mark Lindsey (lead singer of Paul Revere and the Raiders) held his head in his hands after hearing "Tomorrow Never Ends" for the first time and said, "what do we do now...nobody can top this", which he completely threw up his hands even more emphatically when he heard "Strawberry Fields" a few days later. Which was the consensus of all top bands competing for top billing. The nail was hammered into the coffin when the Beatles dropped, "A Day in the Life". Everyone started fiddling with their style, trying to keep up

The song that changed everything amongst the 60s rock bands:

The Beach Boys tried to modify their style with changing up the rhythm as well as using a theremin (most people know it as the instrument Sheldon Cooper played on "Big Bang Theory")

The best that Paul Revere and the Raiders could come up with, was "Let Me"

The Who might have come closest when they released "Won't Get Fooled Again", using some psychedelic sounds and imaging, but it never came close to what the Beatles were producing left and right

In the end, the Beatles were incredibly creative, and will always hold the title of King of the 60s, in the world of rock and roll. They changed the music scene the way Elvis did in the 50s, and Zeppelin in the 70s

[Bob In PA]

What say you?

The Rolling Stones

[Ed Vette]

AI response:

That's a fascinating hypothetical! If the Beatles had never come to America, the landscape of 1960s music and beyond might have looked quite different. Here's how it could have played out:

**Potential Impacts on a Generation of Music:**

1. **Delayed or Altered British Invasion:** 
Without the Beatles' monumental success in America, the widespread excitement around British bands might have been delayed or less intense. The Beatles served as a catalyst for the British Invasion, inspiring numerous bands to aim for international recognition.

2. **Shift in Musical Influences:** 
American bands like The Rolling Stones, The Dave Clark Five, The Kinks, and The Animals capitalized on the British Invasion wave. Without the Beatles as a pioneering model, these bands might have taken longer to develop their style or gained less global traction.

3. **Rise of Other Acts:** 
In the absence of the Beatles' dominance, other American groups such as The Byrds, The Beach Boys, or Motown acts might have gained more prominence earlier, shaping the sound of the era more strongly.

4. **Impact on Songwriting and Studio Innovation:** 
The Beatles revolutionized songwriting and studio techniques. Without their influence, the evolution of pop and rock music might have been slower or taken a different direction, possibly delaying innovations like concept albums or experimental sounds.

5. **Cultural and Youth Movements:** 
The Beatles' cultural impact extended beyond music, influencing fashion, attitudes, and the counterculture. Their absence could have meant a different or less unified youth identity during the '60s.

**Would Other Bands Have Risen or Failed to Take Off?** 
- Some British bands, like The Rolling Stones, were already gaining momentum, but their international breakthrough might have been postponed or less impactful. 
- American bands might have seen increased opportunities, but the competitive edge provided by the Beatles' success would be missing, potentially leading to a different hierarchy of fame.

**In Summary:** 
While other bands would undoubtedly have emerged, the Beatles' unique combination of songwriting, charisma, and innovation played a pivotal role in shaping modern music. Their absence in America could have slowed the pace of musical evolution, altered the rise of other bands, and changed the cultural landscape of the 1960s significantly.

If you'd like, I can explore specific scenarios or discuss how particular genres might have evolved differently!

[LennG]

Interesting subject.

The Beatles were popular because of their music, yes, but I also believe because they did present a clean-cut image, even with their so-called 'mop-tops'. Parents saw guys that wore suits and ties and just looked like, 'well maybe they aren't THAT bad'.
Compare that to the Rolling Stones, who came here and had a completely opposite image, 'the Bad Boys'. I truly believe if not for the Beatles, the Stones would have had a much tougher time gaining any traction. They were the 'Anti Beatles, if you know what I mean. If there were to be a British group that might have started the invasion, I'd say Herman's Hermits or Dave Clark Five.

Who would have emerged if not for the Beatles? That hands-on answer has to be the Beach Boys. Myself I was never a big fan of that 'surfing' sound, but I did like their later music, but there is no denying that they would have been bigger than they ever were. I also feel groups like the Four Seasons, again, a huge group, might have achieved greater status. Also, Elvis might not have 'faded away' when he returned from the service. He might have been bigger than ever. Folk music might have started earlier, and singers like Dylan might have been stars bigger and longer.

Don't know if any has ever seen the movie 'Yesterday', but if not, try and see it. It is about this very topic: what would happen if there were no Beatles, but their music was there. The movie says their music and songs would still be tremendous hots, even if some unknown were singing them.

[Sem]

I think Ric is on the right track. I would agree the Stones and The Beach Boys would likely have carried the mantle as the most influential artists of the 60's, leading the way for what would have followed. The Stones, (along with The Who), would have led the British Invasion. But regarding The Beach Boys, I think it's not unreasonable to suggest their Pet Sounds album was the most influential album of the 60's. Would there have been a Sgt. Pepper album (at least as we know it), had it not been for Pet Sounds? Members of the Beatles have said that the Pet Sounds album really blew their minds with what could be accomplished in the studio. With that in mind I find it very interesting that the first album they recorded after hearing Pet Sounds was Sgt. Pepper.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I think Ric is on the right track. I would agree the Stones and The Beach Boys would likely have carried the mantle as the most influential artists of the 60's, leading the way for what would have followed. The Stones, (along with The Who), would have led the British Invasion. But regarding The Beach Boys, I think it's not unreasonable to suggest their Pet Sounds album was the most influential album of the 60's. Would there have been a Sgt. Pepper album (at least as we know it), had it not been for Pet Sounds? Members of the Beatles have said that the Pet Sounds album really blew their minds with what could be accomplished in the studio. With that in mind I find it very interesting that the first album they recorded after hearing Pet Sounds was Sgt. Pepper.

Lenn and Steve are very insightful. I thought I was the only one who realized "Pet Sounds" was a radical transformation about the way music would evolve as it did. And as Steve pointed out, Pet Sounds inspired the Beatles to evolve into a whole new style of music. As stated in a popular music magazine, "...promoted as 'the most progressive pop album ever', Pet Sounds is recognized for its ambitious production, sophisticated harmonic structures, and coming of age themes. It is widely regarded as among the greatest and most influential albums in music history."

Few people are aware of the sheer genius of Brian Wilson as a revolutionary music composer. He radically changed the "standard" (three verses with a chorus after each) by moving away from "bouncy tunes", mixing odd keys, changing tempos within a song, new rhythms, and adding sounds not associated with pop...who else would add a theremin to a hit song...lol. A deep dive into AI, like Ed did, would surprise a lot of people who aren't aware of Brian Wilson's genius. Heck, if I get time later, maybe I will. BTW Ed, did you use ChatGPT, or Grok? I find Grok to be a little more informative...sometimes a little too much info...like 20 pages, lol

A few examples of Pet Sounds. Notice the introduction of horns, violins, flutes, and strange clacking in addition to different drum style

This is a modern day composer of pop, listening to the Beach Boys for the first time. Made me laugh, especially when he tries to figure out "Good Vibrations" and what instruments are being played. He is flabbergasted by the harmony of the guys, which is about as perfect as any group ever sang. I remember hearing Good Vibrations on 1430 WENE when I was 13 yrs old, and all I wanted for my birthday was that record. And sure enough, my mother bought me the 45 of the song, and I was elated

[Ed Vette]

Lenn and Steve are very insightful. I thought I was the only one who realized "Pet Sounds" was a radical transformation about the way music would evolve as it did. And as Steve pointed out, Pet Sounds inspired the Beatles to evolve into a whole new style of music. As stated in a popular music magazine, "...promoted as 'the most progressive pop album ever', Pet Sounds is recognized for its ambitious production, sophisticated harmonic structures, and coming of age themes. It is widely regarded as among the greatest and most influential albums in music history."

Few people are aware of the sheer genius of Brian Wilson as a revolutionary music composer. He radically changed the "standard" (three verses with a chorus after each) by moving away from "bouncy tunes", mixing odd keys, changing tempos within a song, new rhythms, and adding sounds not associated with pop...who else would add a theremin to a hit song...lol. A deep dive into AI, like Ed did, would surprise a lot of people who aren't aware of Brian Wilson's genius. Heck, if I get time later, maybe I will. BTW Ed, did you use ChatGPT, or Grok? I find Grok to be a little more informative...sometimes a little too much info...like 20 pages, lol

A few examples of Pet Sounds. Notice the introduction of horns, violins, flutes, and strange clacking in addition to different drum style

This is a modern day composer of pop, listening to the Beach Boys for the first time. Made me laugh, especially when he tries to figure out "Good Vibrations" and what instruments are being played. He is flabbergasted by the harmony of the guys, which is about as perfect as any group ever sang. I remember hearing Good Vibrations on 1430 WENE when I was 13 yrs old, and all I wanted for my birthday was that record. And sure enough, my mother bought me the 45 of the song, and I was elated

Chat AI

[Ed Vette]

Lenn and Steve are very insightful. I thought I was the only one who realized "Pet Sounds" was a radical transformation about the way music would evolve as it did. And as Steve pointed out, Pet Sounds inspired the Beatles to evolve into a whole new style of music. As stated in a popular music magazine, "...promoted as 'the most progressive pop album ever', Pet Sounds is recognized for its ambitious production, sophisticated harmonic structures, and coming of age themes. It is widely regarded as among the greatest and most influential albums in music history."

Few people are aware of the sheer genius of Brian Wilson as a revolutionary music composer. He radically changed the "standard" (three verses with a chorus after each) by moving away from "bouncy tunes", mixing odd keys, changing tempos within a song, new rhythms, and adding sounds not associated with pop...who else would add a theremin to a hit song...lol. A deep dive into AI, like Ed did, would surprise a lot of people who aren't aware of Brian Wilson's genius. Heck, if I get time later, maybe I will. BTW Ed, did you use ChatGPT, or Grok? I find Grok to be a little more informative...sometimes a little too much info...like 20 pages, lol

A few examples of Pet Sounds. Notice the introduction of horns, violins, flutes, and strange clacking in addition to different drum style

This is a modern day composer of pop, listening to the Beach Boys for the first time. Made me laugh, especially when he tries to figure out "Good Vibrations" and what instruments are being played. He is flabbergasted by the harmony of the guys, which is about as perfect as any group ever sang. I remember hearing Good Vibrations on 1430 WENE when I was 13 yrs old, and all I wanted for my birthday was that record. And sure enough, my mother bought me the 45 of the song, and I was elated

Paul McCartney said that God only knows was the most beautiful song ever written. Although I love "If" by the most underrated band ever, Bread.

[Sem]

Paul McCartney said that God only knows was the most beautiful song ever written. Although I love "If" by the most underrated band ever, Bread.

I've always liked Bread as well, @Ed Vette . Back in my teen years they released some great songs to listen to, especially when you were alone with your girlfriend, if you catch  my drift. And since Glen Campbell played on Pet Sounds, we can tie it all together, check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2GU0-R6eY

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Ed, I agree that Bread is underrated, but it strays from rock and roll. Everything they sang was romantic. It was the favorite band of my wife. There used to be a way to tell who wrote what songs for the Beatles. If it was romantic, it was written by Paul. If it was written by John, it would be about revolution, or war, or something opposite of romantic
Paul also said, "if it wasn't for them wanting to outdo 'Good Vibrations', they would have never come up with 'A Day in the Life'". The Beatles were 3 guitars and a drummer...same as the Beach Boys in their early years. But Wilson incorporated so many new instruments and sounds, that the Beatles became very creative to do the same and keep up with the Beach Boys. So horns, violins, sitars...pretty much anything that made noise, you name it, became the sound of the Beatles, with the Magical Mystery Tour becoming their signature coming out album. One thing that John did to copy Wilson, was to take an ordinary piano and put a thumb tack in each of the felt hammers to give it a "tink" sound, as the keys were struck. You can pick it out in some of Wilson's stuff as well as in Strawberry Fields Forever

Anyway, we were lucky to live in the day when musicians were challenging each other, like the Beach Boys and the Beatles. In fact, that renegade creation carried over to Led Zeppelin as well as Queen. They all deviated from standard songwriting by ditching the chorus and playing in multiple keys in the same song, and using full orchestras or instruments from an orchestra, while changing tempos and going into whatever direction their minds took them, unhindered from the "proper" way to compose songs

[Ed Vette]

I've always liked Bread as well, @Ed Vette . Back in my teen years they released some great songs to listen to, especially when you were alone with your girlfriend, if you catch  my drift. And since Glen Campbell played on Pet Sounds, we can tie it all together, check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2GU0-R6eY

Thanks, I enjoyed that. Many years ago I called Apple Support over an issue with moving music I burned to my Iphone. I gave the tech access to my library and as she was scrolling, she came upon a song on an album. She said, "I was named after that song!" We chatted for a while and had a nice connection.

[Sem]

Ed, I agree that Bread is underrated, but it strays from rock and roll. Everything they sang was romantic.

Not every song Ric, (damn, I haven't listened to this in years!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs7C3VHwPcc

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I've heard a lot of love songs in my life, but "I'll Always Love You" sung by Whitney Houston has to be at the top IMHO. Such a tragedy that she ever got mixed up with Bobby Brown. She started singing in a small church at a young age in Newark, NJ. When she was put to rest, the funeral was held at the same church, and as they rolled her casket away down the aisle, that song was played on the speakers. I watched it on TV and it was heartbreaking and you weren't human if you didn't have a frog in your throat. What a talent. One of the most beautiful voices to ever sing...perfection in pitch, range, and tone

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Not every song Ric, (damn, I haven't listened to this in years!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs7C3VHwPcc

I stand corrected. Never heard that one before