Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 14, 2024, 12:24:42 PMBy a brilliant Offensive drafted by Daboll to disguise Jones deficiencies and work to his Run Strength. Saquon, Dink, Dunk, Read option. Then at the end of the season the league figured it out and they got lucky to face the lousy Vikings Defense. How did those last eight games go again?

It seems like you refuse to give Jones any credit for the team's success, but are more than willing to blame him for the team's shortcomings.

To the last 8 games, to avoid that issue, I will look at how Jones did

From last to earliest

Opponent -- QB rating -- QBR -- PFF grade

Eagles -- 53.8 -- 11.7 -- 46.7
Vikings -- 114.1 -- 82.5 -- 80.9
Colts -- 125.2 -- 97.0 -- 81.9
Vikings -- 92.8 -- 59.1 -- 85.3
Washington -- 77.6 -- 76.8 -- 75.8
Eagles -- 96.1 -- 77.0 -- 78.0
Washington -- 104.3 -- 32.5 -- 68.4
Cowboys -- 88.8 -- 60.9   -- 50.8

So to answer your question, the team didn't do that well, but more often than not Jones played well.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 14, 2024, 11:44:48 AM2019, a middling Oline and a 4-12 season. Then the dink and dunk of 2022, only to get spanked by the Eagles in the playoffs. You glossed over the point. He will NEVER win this team a SB Trophy. Do I need to repeat myself? OK
"Jones will win games as I always said he could and be a better Regular season QB than Eli, and then choke in the playoffs."

How did Jones get to the position to be "spanked" by the Eagles in the playoffs?

When I hear pundits talk about signing veterans, I am reminded of the Packer's philosophy.  You don't see the Packers signing veteran hole fillers because such players serve to impede the development of homegrown talent.   In other words, signing Apple means that the pool of young CBs (Flott, Phillips, Hawkins, and McCloud) will have fewer snaps to develop.   Signing a veteran RB means drafted RBs like Tracy and Gray will have fewer snaps to develop.

Unless you believe your team is SB or bust, it's best to roll with your young players and let them develop.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 14, 2024, 10:56:25 AMMaybe you haven't capitulated but I'm done with all the excuses. I supported his draft pick because he was the best QB to choose from. 2 years later it was obvious what we had, 6 years later I see him here the next two years or more. He's going to need a top-ten Oline to thrive here. Otherwise, it's dink and dunk, dink and dunk... freeze and duck, freeze and duck. I'm very disappointed in this regime right now. Maybe after a few wins, I'll be in a better mood. Unless of course, the schedule is a 2023 killer to start the season, the oline fails, he get injured through no fault of the Oline and the Defense fails to defend. Did I miss anything? 

PFF Rankings

year -- Pass blocking --- receiving
2023 -- 32nd -- 32nd
2022 -- 24th -- 27th
2021 -- 30th -- 31st
2020 -- 32nd -- 25th
2019 -- 16th -- 17th

The best DJ had was his rookie season when his on-field support was slightly below the mean.  The rest of the time DJ has had bottom 3rd (and even dead last) support both in protection and receiving.

I don't see how, from that data, we can conclude that DJ needs "top 10" to be effective.  I think accusations of making excuses hide the unrealistic expectations of those making the accusations.

DJ is like a car you stumble across with two flat tires.  The engine starts, but that's all you can learn about the car because you can't drive it with two flats.  Now, it's possible that once you fix the flats, it will turn out that the transmission is shot, and the car is still useless.  However, until you fix the flat tires, there is no way to know what the car fully does.  That's what you have with DJ.  Until you give him half a chance, you can't say with any certainty what you have.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 14, 2024, 10:42:48 AMThe only hope is that the o-line is the one position group where sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, eg, the 2008 Giants o-line.

But it puts into perspective all of the chatter here about the line improving to average this year.  Maybe they will, but I will have to see it to believe it.

To this end, I don't know if it was pushed by Bobby Johnson or Brian Daboll, but the focus on position versatility rather than unit cohesion seems counter-productive

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 14, 2024, 09:29:12 AMThey signed 4 free agent guards with flex plus 2 blocking TEs and drafted another.

JMS in year 2 plus what is really year 2 for Neal with a new oline coach and there's no way they aren't better.

I'm not saying elite or even great but could easily see us being 18th at the end of 2024 with our additions.

That seems like a realistic ceiling

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 14, 2024, 09:23:18 AMRanking an Offensive Line before the season is ridiculous. Especially since this Giants line has at least two players who have never played together, the sophomore season for the center, and undecided on who will be at RT. They're doing the PFF grades and coming up with an average. Let's see how this Unit plays together first. Although, I'm not personally satisfied that they didn't draft a Guard this year. Until they finally fix that line, Daniel Jones will not thrive. I doubt Lock would too. They didn't take a chance on finding an elite QB because they believed in Jones. Let's hope this Unit jells. Either way, Jones is destined to be here in 2025. 

For years, the Giants have substituted hope for plans when it comes to the O-line, and unfortunately, this year is no different.  The Giants hope Evan Neal can significantly improve (at least they have Eluemunor if Neal fails).  The Giants hope JMS can play significantly better than he did last season.  The Giants hope they can find a quality second guard to team with Runyan.

If hope succeeds and the new O-line coach proves to be a difference maker, this unit has a ceiling of average to high average.  Should it turn out that Bobby Johnson was unfairly blamed or both Neal and JMS don't significantly improve, this unit could be at or near the bottom again (especially if injury-prone Thomas misses significant time).

I would like to see the Giants face the Commanders early.  They added a lot of talent and it would be nice to face them before they have a chance to fully gel

Quote from: y_so_blu on May 13, 2024, 10:36:51 PMPFF might actually be right about something in this case.

PFF tends to be right more than it's wrong.   PFF is not perfect, but it's a reasonable measure of player performance (or at least a good supplement).  It's also helpful for positions where there are few quality stats.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 13, 2024, 08:40:35 PMhttps://pff.com/news/nfl-strongest-weakest-position-groups-free-agency-2024-nfl-draft?

Good news for DJ. Another year of slack.

Not sure in what universe DJ would consider this good news:


Weakest: New York Giants
Even after earning the worst offensive line grade of any team in 2023, the Giants did very little to improve their unit this offseason. The group recorded a 44.6 PFF grade last year and will hope a fully healthy Andrew Thomas and the additions of guard Jon Runyan (56.5 PFF grade in 2023) and tackle Jermaine Eluemunor (68.7) can provide a boost.


DJ's suffered more than his fair share of injuries thanks to a long series of poor O-line protection.  Hell, last year, three quarterbacks started for NYG and three QB were injured playing behind that line

This topic has been merged into NGT: Goff's New Deal.

https://x.com/art_stapleton/status/1790157917691220091

Here is how they made room

https://x.com/patricia_traina/status/1790144140526735803?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Now that Goff got his new contact

https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1790124808077779248?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

https://x.com/adamschefter/status/1790119575582917024?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 13, 2024, 10:15:43 AMFlott is 6'0.5. He came out of College at 165 lbs. He's still a lightweight at 175. If Daboll likes him outside, it portends the type of Coverage the new DC will employ. He is not a Press Corner. Unfortunately, he has not improved over the years and is not only a liability in Run Support, he gets manhandled by bigger Receivers. Although he has decent back-peddle and fluid hips, he's not fast and can get faked out by jukes. He has short arms, small hands, a weak Span, and a lousy Vertical. His size was good for the Slot but his weak Run Support was an issue and I remember sitting with Bobby Skinner at Camp discussing the frustration with Flott. Of course, anyone was better than Darnay Holmes. Put him on the outside and he's going to get burned over the top and fall down and play dead at second-level Run Support. Saquon Barkley is licking his chops just thinking about it. Sorry Ric @Jolly Blue Giant, but you and I are going to have to disagree on this one. He's getting bumped by Phillips who will have the same issues but at least he's more physical although a bad tackler. If an aging Adoree was a 7, Flott is a 5.

I wouldn't argue that you're wrong (I do hope so, but that's hope).  I am somewhat comforted by the idea that Flott will need to beat out Hawkins and McCloud to win that job.