Big Blue Huddle

General Category => Big Blue Huddle => Topic started by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:23:29 AM

Title: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:23:29 AM
The Giants added a blue-chip prospect last night, even though they were all the way down at 6.  Many say that Nabers was the best WR on the board, better than MHJ.   He was considered by many to be a top 3 prospect in this draft and has elite franchise WR ceiling (he beat OJB's college record).

Not only did the Giants add a great WR prospect to the team, his presence will boost the other WRs as the best CB and the defensive focus will be on Nabers which means all the other WRs will see lesser CBs covering them.


Regardless if you believe Jones or Lock is the Giants' long term answer, the team need to put in place an infrastructure to support the QB and drafting Nabers goes a long way towards creating that infrastructure
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 07:30:17 AM
Rich: I was going to start a new thread but this is as good as any a place to make my point.

The Giants now have the personnel to put together two completely different game plans on offense - one for teams that like to pressure the QB, and one for teams that play mostly zone. Likewise, they can plan to either possess the ball or try to out-score the opponent, which is something they haven't been able to do for a long, long time.

They have all the parts, if they can stay healthy.

Bob

Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: uconnjack8 on April 26, 2024, 07:31:28 AM
Rich,

I was surprised by some of the reaction here.  I wanted Odunze but think very highly Nabers ability, just hope the attitude stuff is overblown. 

Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:43:30 AM
I have no doubt Nabers is an exceptional talent. But he won't move the needle much for the Giants as they are presently constructed. So it's nice to have a potentially all star caliber player on the roster, wide receivers don't have the impact without other pieces in place, particularly the QB. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but that won't be evident for a long time.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 07:45:11 AM
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 26, 2024, 07:31:28 AMRich,
I was surprised by some of the reaction here.  I wanted Odunze but think very highly Nabers ability, just hope the attitude stuff is overblown. 

uconn: I understand the reaction.  Odunze is a more traditional typw of WR. Nabers is the exact opposite. In the long run, I initially thought they would be better off with Odunze too, but in the modern era where it's almost all about the passing attack, Nabers gives them far more options and variations. In fact, I have reason to think Schoen/Daboll would have taken Nabers even if Harrison was still available. Nabers is THEIR type of guy, and it's THEIR necks on the chopping block, so if they fail it makes more sense to fail with the guy(s) they want. Bob
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 07:48:12 AM
Quote from: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:43:30 AMI have no doubt Nabers is an exceptional talent. But he won't move the needle much for the Giants as they are presently constructed. So it's nice to have a potentially all star caliber player on the roster, wide receivers don't have the impact without other pieces in place, particularly the QB. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but that won't be evident for a long time.
kat: I don't see it that way. I see Nabers as the final piece to the puzzle on offense. I'm assuming they already have the running backs they need to do the offense the way THEY want to do it, not the way the fans want to see them do it. The Giants will now be a pass-first (modern NFL?) offense, not the traditional type you and I favor. Give them a chance. It won't be "Giants' football" on offense... but hopefully it will be winning football. Bob
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:51:48 AM
Quote from: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:43:30 AMI have no doubt Nabers is an exceptional talent. But he won't move the needle much for the Giants as they are presently constructed. So it's nice to have a potentially all star caliber player on the roster, wide receivers don't have the impact without other pieces in place, particularly the QB. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but that won't be evident for a long time.

Team building is about increasing the team's overall talent level, ideally at key positions.  It's not about just one player, even QB.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:51:54 AM
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 07:48:12 AMkat: I don't see it that way. I see Nabers as the final piece to the puzzle on offense. I'm assuming they already have the running backs they need to do the offense the way THEY want to do it, not the way the fans want to see them do it. The Giants will now be a pass-first (modern NFL?) offense, not the traditional type you and I favor. Give them a chance. It won't be "Giants' football" on offense... but hopefully it will be winning football. Bob
I don't see what you see in the QB s that's the issue. I've seen the QB for five years and it's not changed. Not to mention he will be limited to start the season on top of the vulnerability he has to injury. You can't win in this league without stellar QB play, top 15 won't cut it.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:51:48 AMTeam building is about increasing the team's overall talent level, ideally at key positions.  It's not about just one player, even QB.
I agree, but without elevating the most important position on the field, you are treading water.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:58:51 AM
The 33rd Team gave the selection of Nabers an 'A'.

Passing on J.J. McCarthy is risky because Daniel Jones isn't the answer, but McCarthy was also risky. Malik Nabers gives the New York Giants the best receiving talent they've had since Odell Beckham Jr.

The Athletic's Nick Baumgardner gave the pick an 'A'.

Nabers is an electric playmaker and arguably the most dangerous ball carrier in space in this class. An incredibly smooth and explosive athlete with great ball skills, Nabers was an instant contributor in the SEC for LSU and made 161 catches with Jayden Daniels the past two seasons as a complete receiver. Some scouts had Nabers ranked ahead of Harrison in this class. He's that good.

The Giants have questions about Daniel Jones, to be sure. But to me, drafting a quarterback here made no sense. The Giants still have so much work to do — bringing a first-round QB in to "compete" with a guy you don't support makes no sense. Nabers is an awesome talent and will instantly make one of the slowest offenses faster. A sensible, efficient and explosive draft pick. Also, possibly, a mess avoided.

NFL.com's Chad Reuter have the selection a 'B+'.

Nabers' quickness off the line, tight routes, strong hands and electric moves after the catch remind me of another former LSU wideout the Giants selected in the first round (10 years ago, in fact). If Nabers proves agile enough to win against NFL cornerbacks at the top of the route, he could become one of the league's best receivers in time. The question down the line, though, might be whether the Giants would've been better off selecting J.J. McCarthy at No. 6 and then a very good receiver on Day 2 instead.

CBS Sports' Pete Prisco gave the Giants an 'A+'.

I love this pick for the Giants. It says they didn't believe in the quarterbacks who were left and now they get a playmaker on the outside. This kid will be a star.

USA Today gave the Giants an 'A'.

Breathe easy, Daniel Jones - at least for now. Not only did Big Blue turn down the option of selecting your potential replacement, team brass equipped their incumbent starter with a legitimate go-to threat. Nabers is electric both as a downfield target and a run-after-catch weapon, and he can take much of the pressure off Jones as the quarterback works his way back from an injury-shortened campaign. If the Giants' drought of 1,000-yard receivers is going to end soon - which dates back to 2018 with another LSU product in Odell Beckham Jr. - Nabers will be the guy to break through.

Pro Football Focus called the pick 'very good'.

The Giants were linked to several of the quarterbacks in the draft process. Instead of packaging picks to move up or sticking at No. 6 to bring in J.J. McCarthy, they bring an explosive receiver into a receiving corps in need of talent. Nabers recorded 44 receptions of 20-plus yards over his last two seasons, second-most among FBS wide receivers.

Rob Rang of FOX Sports gave the pick an 'A'.

With all due respect to fellow top-10 talents Marvin Harrison Jr. and Rome Odunze, Nabers is the most electric receiver in this class, possessing an exceptional combination of burst, elusiveness and breakaway speed. It's been impossible to fairly evaluate Daniel Jones with so few playmakers at receiver. Nabers is the star the Giants have been missing and resets the clock on Jones.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/4/26/24141266/nfl-draft-round-1-grades-new-york-giants-selection-of-malik-nabers-gets-high-marks?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=bigblueview&utm_medium=social
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: katkavage on April 26, 2024, 07:51:54 AMI don't see what you see in the QB s that's the issue.
kat: That's ok. The issue will now be decided one way or another. By the end of this year, you'll see it... or I'll be tipping my hat to you. I think they have enough on offense that, even if the run-game can't do much (Nabers and Robinson will contribute), this year Jones will demonstrate that he can play small ball and long ball. Bob
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: londonblue on April 26, 2024, 08:10:46 AM
We were a bad team before we picked Nabers. We are still a bad team after the pick. We are a battered, rusting heap with an engine operating at half power (DJ), two good tires (AT, Dex), a nice stereo pass rush duo and an enhanced selection of shiny WR hood ornaments.

I am not sure there is much to be happy about as we are still a long way from competing. Getting another good player is nice but hardly cause for bunting and a parade.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:14:45 AM
Quote from: londonblue on April 26, 2024, 08:10:46 AMWe were a bad team before we picked Nabers. We are still a bad team after the pick. We are a battered, rusting heap with an engine operating at half power (DJ), two good tires (AT, Dex), a nice stereo pass rush duo and an enhanced selection of shiny WR hood ornaments.

I am not sure there is much to be happy about as we are still a long way from competing. Getting another good player is nice but hardly cause for bunting and a parade.

Getting a blue chip prospect at 6 is not an every-year occurrence, from what I have seen.  Consider the 2022 draft when the Giants picked 5 and 7.  They got Thibs and Neal, but neither was considered a blue chipper.  At best both were red chip prospects
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: londonblue on April 26, 2024, 08:10:46 AMWe were a bad team before we picked Nabers. We are still a bad team after the pick. We are a battered, rusting heap with an engine operating at half power (DJ), two good tires (AT, Dex), a nice stereo pass rush duo and an enhanced selection of shiny WR hood ornaments.

I am not sure there is much to be happy about as we are still a long way from competing. Getting another good player is nice but hardly cause for bunting and a parade.

london: Although I disagree at least a bit with your sentiment, I "liked" your post because no one has to my knowledge ever used the word "bunting" here other than with reference to baseball. lol
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:29:48 AM
I guess this is also why I am happy.  Here is what I posted to Ed a few days ago in terms of how I viewed this "historic" QB class


Quote from: MightyGiants on April 22, 2024, 09:50:33 AMEd,

I guess I just see the strong draft class as functionally an illusion owing to three QB needy teams drafting 1-3.   


The draft class of

Williams
Maye
Daniels
JJ
Penix
Nix

Sounds pretty impressive

The functional draft class (assuming the 3 QB needy teams draft 3 QBs) of

JJ
Penix
Nix

Seems a bit less impressive with the Giants drafting 3rd
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:49:17 AM
Giants made right move to get Daniel Jones the No. 1 WR he needs

Ralph Vacchiano


https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/giants-made-right-move-to-get-daniel-jones-the-no-1-wr-he-needs
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: T200 on April 26, 2024, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:51:48 AMTeam building is about increasing the team's overall talent level, ideally at key positions.  It's not about just one player, even QB.
How do you separate the talent from the player? As talented as Nabers is, he is still one player.

I'm onboard with the pick because I trust Schoen and Daboll still. I'm a little doubtful that this pick will move the offensive needle much.

My concern is that as a rookie, they are chomping at the bit to make an impact. They want to get the ball in their hands to showcase their skills. If Jones is skittish in the pocket and can't/won't deliver the ball to him and the other receivers, frustration and demotivation will set in.

If Jones can't get him the ball, Nabers will be the equivalent of a Ferrari sitting in the garage.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 08:56:38 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 08:53:48 AMHow do you separate the talent from the player? As talented as Nabers is, he is still one player.

I'm onboard with the pick because I trust Schoen and Daboll still. I'm a little doubtful that this pick will move the offensive needle much.

My concern is that as a rookie, they are chomping at the bit to make an impact. They want to get the ball in their hands to showcase their skills. If Jones is skittish in the pocket and can't/won't deliver the ball to him and the other receivers, frustration and demotivation will set in.

If Jones can't get him the ball, Nabers will be the equivalent of a Ferrari sitting in the garage.

And they already had one of those in Hyatt last year. I love Nabers. And they are stuck with Jones this year no matter what. But it they can't find Jones replacement next year by the time they do Nabers will be approaching free agency and this whole thing would be wasted. No matter how special he is.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:59:27 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 08:53:48 AMHow do you separate the talent from the player? As talented as Nabers is, he is still one player.

I'm onboard with the pick because I trust Schoen and Daboll still. I'm a little doubtful that this pick will move the offensive needle much.

My concern is that as a rookie, they are chomping at the bit to make an impact. They want to get the ball in their hands to showcase their skills. If Jones is skittish in the pocket and can't/won't deliver the ball to him and the other receivers, frustration and demotivation will set in.

If Jones can't get him the ball, Nabers will be the equivalent of a Ferrari sitting in the garage.

Tim,

I have been a cyclist all my life.  Cyclists are all about making their bikes as light as possible.  Yet the harsh reality is there is no single component that can magically eliminate all the desired weight.  It's take the kickstand away for a few ounces, a different frame, maybe a pound or two, eliminate the peddles a few more ounces, and so on and so on.

To me, that is similar to NFL team building.  An NFL team has 22 starters and many more key role players.  So the addition of a single player is highly unlikely to "move the needle."  What moves the needle is methodically adding quality players (especially in the trenches) over a period of time with a quality coaching staff and culture in place.

As for Jones not being able to "get him the ball," that is more myth (thanks to the BBH echo chamber) than reality.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:03:32 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:59:27 AMTim,

I have been a cyclist all my life.  Cyclists are all about making their bikes as light as possible.  Yet the harsh reality is there is no single component that can magically eliminate all the desired weight.  It's take the kickstand away for a few ounces, a different frame, maybe a pound or two, eliminate the peddles a few more ounces, and so on and so on.

To me, that is similar to NFL team building.  An NFL team has 22 starters and many more key role players.  So the addition of a single player is highly unlikely to "move the needle."  What moves the needle is methodically adding quality players (especially in the trenches) over a period of time with a quality coaching staff and culture in place.

As for Jones not being able to "get him the ball," that is more myth (thanks to the BBH echo chamber) than reality.
It's still one player.

Wasn't Jones near the bottom of the stat sheet in throws over 20 yards? How exactly is that an echo chamber when the numbers (and watching eyes) bear it out?
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:03:32 AMIt's still one player.

Wasn't Jones near the bottom of the stat sheet in throws over 20 yards? How exactly is that an echo chamber when the numbers (and watching eyes) bear it out?

Didn't Jones have PFF last-place protection and receiving last season?
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: y_so_blu on April 26, 2024, 09:07:40 AM
We needed a quarterback more than we needed a wide receiver. One of my favorite quarterback prospects fell into our lap at #6 and we didn't take him.

So let me check... no. No, I am not waking up happy.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:07:51 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:06:14 AMDidn't Jones have PFF last-place protection and receiving last season?
You're answering a question with a question.  ;)
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:11:02 AM
Quote from: y_so_blu on April 26, 2024, 09:07:40 AMWe needed a quarterback more than we needed a wide receiver. One of my favorite quarterback prospects fell into our lap at #6 and we didn't take him.

So let me check... no. No, I am not waking up happy.
JJ himself said he spent the most time with the Giants than any other team he interviewed with. That tells me two things:

1) Schoen and company did their due diligence on JJ.
2) Schoen and company did not feel, in all the time they spent with the kid, that he is what the Giants needed at #6.

I'm completely fine with that. I wanted a QB as well but I did not want to grab one just to grab one. I believe Schoen and Daboll wanted one as well. It just wasn't McCarthy.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:15:49 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:07:51 AMYou're answering a question with a question.  ;)

Tim,

Did you expect Jones to be somewhere other than at the bottom of the list for deep throws when he had historically bad protection and poor receivers?   That is why I answered a question with a question.  The subtext of your question is that Jones should be held responsible for the historically bad support he received last season.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 09:24:35 AM
I am definitely excited. personally i think odunze was the better pick (dude's work ethic and charachter is absolutely top tier). something about nabers rubs me the wrong way a little, but i'm sure we will all grow to love him.

Although yes we need to address the qb situation, i am very happy we did not sell the house to get one. History shows at least half of those 6 first round qb's will fail.

For the way it went down, its a solid A pick for me.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Philosophers on April 26, 2024, 09:28:46 AM
I see a lot of frustration in this post.  Waking up this morning, I realize that BPA is a great approach as a team needs both top end talent and a lot of depth.  Giants addressed the former in spades with Nabers.  Now, let's hope they continue to stockpile more top end talent.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:30:43 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:15:49 AMTim,

Did you expect Jones to be somewhere other than at the bottom of the list for deep throws when he had historically bad protection and poor receivers?   That is why I answered a question with a question.  The subtext of your question is that Jones should be held responsible for the historically bad support he received last season.
That's what you're reading into it, Rich.

What is Jones responsible for? Aren't his stats attributable to him and not his offensive line?
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: LennG on April 26, 2024, 09:56:27 AM
The people who are the happiest this AM are the people who still believe Jones is the future of this team. Those of us that think Jones is not the QB we need to be able to win know Nabers is a great talent but a great talent needs a good QB to help make his talents excel. Drafting a great WR before we have that talent at QB may well be Barkley II. His talents will be wasted for several years as we try to find a QB who can help him excel.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: y_so_blu on April 26, 2024, 09:07:40 AMWe needed a quarterback more than we needed a wide receiver. One of my favorite quarterback prospects fell into our lap at #6 and we didn't take him.

So let me check... no. No, I am not waking up happy.

We will all be watching his career in Minnesota.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: LennG on April 26, 2024, 09:56:27 AMThe people who are the happiest this AM are the people who still believe Jones is the future of this team. Those of us that think Jones is not the QB we need to be able to win know Nabers is a great talent but a great talent needs a good QB to help make his talents excel. Drafting a great WR before we have that talent at QB may well be Barkley II. His talents will be wasted for several years as we try to find a QB who can help him excel.

More like those that are happy, appreciate and understand that quarterbacks need support to develop and even just to function and here is what neutral Athletic writer ranked the Giants support system


6. New York Giants
Pass blocking: F
Run game: C
Weapons: D (potential F)
Play-caller: B
Defense: C

The Giants have Daniel Jones signed for another two seasons but there is buzz that they might make a move in the draft to get one of the top four quarterbacks. The biggest draw New York has is that head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have shown they can piece together an offense with toothpicks and paperclips. The Giants surprised the league in 2022, finishing 10th in offensive DVOA, but their lack of overall talent especially on their offensive line caught up to them last season. Andrew Thomas is one of the best left tackles in the league but he can only block one rusher at a time. Jones missed significant time and the Giants finished 30th in offensive DVOA. The Giants' weapons cache is the worst in the league.


If you want to keep drafting QBs just to watch them crash and burn, ala the Jets, by all means let us not get any receiving weapons.

https://theathletic.com/5421402/2024/04/19/2024-nfl-draft-ranking-qb-friendliness/
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Philosophers on April 26, 2024, 10:05:04 AM
I think we need to look at it this way.  Nabers was a top shelf addition, however, we need a Guard and RB.  That should complete the talent upgrade then it will be up to the new OL coach to fuse the OL into a good cohesive group.

After that, DJ will only have 1 year (next season) to either be the QB or next draft we will go into full bore draft a QB mode.  We could have gotten one this season albeit with some uncertainty, but instead, we drafted a very high end talent with high floor and a super high ceiling.  You can't fault the team for that.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 10:05:51 AM
Quote from: LennG on April 26, 2024, 09:56:27 AMThe people who are the happiest this AM are the people who still believe Jones is the future of this team. Those of us that think Jones is not the QB we need to be able to win know Nabers is a great talent but a great talent needs a good QB to help make his talents excel. Drafting a great WR before we have that talent at QB may well be Barkley II. His talents will be wasted for several years as we try to find a QB who can help him excel.

Lenn: Reasonable post. I get it. I'm one who believes Jones (if healthy) will get the job done this year, if for no other reason than to make Schoen's moves next year at this time as difficult as possible.  One more thing... with all the rookie QB's taken in the first round this year we may see some "unexpected" veteran QB's become available during the summer, so the Giants might be in the market for that option (if so, I hope it's not due to an injury to Jones or Lock). Bob
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Jolly Blue Giant on April 26, 2024, 10:07:26 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:11:02 AMJJ himself said he spent the most time with the Giants than any other team he interviewed with. That tells me two things:

1) Schoen and company did their due diligence on JJ.
2) Schoen and company did not feel, in all the time they spent with the kid, that he is what the Giants needed at #6.

I'm completely fine with that. I wanted a QB as well but I did not want to grab one just to grab one. I believe Schoen and Daboll wanted one as well. It just wasn't McCarthy.

I couldn't agree more Tim

Those who don't study history, are doomed to repeat it...and that includes NFL football

Every year a handful of QBs are drafted and a large portion of them fail at the NFL level, and some of them become good or average down the road. Every once in a while, one of them becomes a franchise type QB. The truth is, we don't know if one of these guys (or none of them) will develop into a "franchise" guy. So it ends up with most teams throwing what they have at the wall and hoping it sticks

Schoen and Daboll know exactly what they have in DJ - a smart 6'5", mobile QB with a good arm and a superb work ethic, along with exceptional character. I disagree with the plethora of pundits and fans who believe GMs are such bloated egotists that they "must have a QB they drafted". To think that Schoen is sitting at home thinking he must dump the QB who came with the team because "he's not mine", is silly

JJ McCarthy was a good QB at Michigan and had a high level coach and a very good surrounding cast. Drew Lock on the other hand, is taller than McCarthy and has very similar traits, and played for Missouri with a much less talented supporting cast. While McCarthy threw 49 TDs in three years, Lock threw 99 in four years. My point: "is McCarthy a significant upgrade over DJ, or more similar to Lock?" My answer: "I don't know...time will tell". This is the kind of thing Schoen had to ponder. Get it wrong and it sets the franchise back years

Yesterday, I posted a comparison chart of six opinions from respected draft analysts/services, and how they ranked the top 20 players. Three of them didn't even have McCarthy listed in the top 20, and only one (Great Blue North) had him ranked as high as 10. Schoen and coaches spent more time with McCarthy than any other player, yet chose to not take him at no.6...that has to mean something

I hope McCarthy does well in the NFL...along with the other QBs, but history has proven that most don't become franchise QBs - some of them have great starts, then flame out (Carson Wentz, Robert Griffen III, etc), others go on to become average and tend to be traded around the league during their careers. Personally, I don't think McCarthy is this year's "jackpot" pick to be a franchise guy. I could be wrong, but history is on my side
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 10:08:40 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:15:49 AMTim,

Did you expect Jones to be somewhere other than at the bottom of the list for deep throws when he had historically bad protection and poor receivers?  That is why I answered a question with a question.  The subtext of your question is that Jones should be held responsible for the historically bad support he received last season.

He should be held responsible for his own play though.  Which at times feels like doesn't happen with all the excuse making.  During any given day, even with an awful OL, there will be plays available to  be made.  Maybe not as many as there could be or even should be but there are some.  Last season he made damn near none of those plays save the Arizona 2nd half.  Which let's also not just pretend the 1st half of that game didn't happen. 

But therein lies precisely the problem with Jones.  He'll give you that Arizona 2nd half every once in a while.  And you'll be fooled into thinking "Hey look this guy has it!" He fooled the Giants front office after one season of simply not horrific football.  But instead of building on that performance he takes 3 steps backwards and has to start all over.  It's the very definition of QB hell.  He's not bad enough to get you into the top 3 so you can actually draft his replacement but he's not good enough to win anything substantial with.

If he could make those plays that present themselves, even in losses, we would be more inclined to say well they lost but that really wasn't his fault.  He made the plays he had to make they just didn't give him enough of them to actually win the game.  The problem a lot of us have is he rarely makes the plays he has, and last year in particular he was just dumping it off at an alarming rate.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: UncannyGfan on April 26, 2024, 10:10:28 AM
Maybe in a year or two they sign a free agent QB whom gets a second wind with Thomas at OLT and Nabers at WR? 

I would have liked for a franchise QB to fall to them but it didn't happen and getting a blue chip WR might end up working out better over the next few seasons.

I think Jones is at his best as a duel running threat, so after the neck injuries, ACL, and Barkley leaving, I'm pretty skeptical over his prospects next season but the Giants have a few really really good players at key positions (Dex, Banks, Thomas, Nabers) so they have potential to turn things around.  I'm not sold on Daball either so maybe not next year, but some day. 
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 07:51:48 AMTeam building is about increasing the team's overall talent level, ideally at key positions.  It's not about just one player, even QB.

totally agree. you need star and firepower. nabers gives us that type of juice. he is a PLAYMAYKER. regardless of who the qb is this guy will produce.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Jclayton92 on April 26, 2024, 10:14:20 AM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:03:32 AMIt's still one player.

Wasn't Jones near the bottom of the stat sheet in throws over 20 yards? How exactly is that an echo chamber when the numbers (and watching eyes) bear it out?
He only threw it twice beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving in 2022, his best "ever" season.

I don't think it's unrealistic to think Lock starts the season and remains the Qb so the Giants/Daboll at minimum can see what they have on offense and have a competent one to compliment a solid defense. They can't do that properly with Jones on the field.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: sooners56 on April 26, 2024, 10:14:33 AM
I'd be a lot more happy if Barkley were still the RB. The Giants offense has been bad, but it is absolutely atrocious when Barkley isn't playing.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:03:18 AMMore like those that are happy, appreciate and understand that quarterbacks need support to develop and even just to function and here is what neutral Athletic writer ranked the Giants support system


6. New York Giants
Pass blocking: F
Run game: C
Weapons: D (potential F)
Play-caller: B
Defense: C

The Giants have Daniel Jones signed for another two seasons but there is buzz that they might make a move in the draft to get one of the top four quarterbacks. The biggest draw New York has is that head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have shown they can piece together an offense with toothpicks and paperclips. The Giants surprised the league in 2022, finishing 10th in offensive DVOA, but their lack of overall talent especially on their offensive line caught up to them last season. Andrew Thomas is one of the best left tackles in the league but he can only block one rusher at a time. Jones missed significant time and the Giants finished 30th in offensive DVOA. The Giants' weapons cache is the worst in the league.


If you want to keep drafting QBs just to watch them crash and burn, ala the Jets, by all means let us not get any receiving weapons.

https://theathletic.com/5421402/2024/04/19/2024-nfl-draft-ranking-qb-friendliness/

The only flaw in this reasoning is the assumption that when your team is ready, you just dial 1-800-quarterback and get one. Usually the opportunity to get one doesn't present at the perfect time. That's why middle of the road teams end up with guys like Elvis Grbac, Brad Johnson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kirk Cousins, and washed up Brett Favre. 
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 10:17:11 AM
Quote from: londonblue on April 26, 2024, 08:10:46 AMWe were a bad team before we picked Nabers. We are still a bad team after the pick. We are a battered, rusting heap with an engine operating at half power (DJ), two good tires (AT, Dex), a nice stereo pass rush duo and an enhanced selection of shiny WR hood ornaments.

I am not sure there is much to be happy about as we are still a long way from competing. Getting another good player is nice but hardly cause for bunting and a parade.


not entirely wrong but very bleak perspective. you take elite playmakers when you can get them. this isnt barkley at 2 (position value argument). WR are very high positional value, and we got a VERY GOOD one. some say the best playmaker in the whole draft.

Sorry but JJ is a late 1st, 2nd round guy at best. maybe he'll wind up being really good. but getting him NOW also would not have moved the needle, as he would be sitting for at least a year anyway. We reinforced the oline (whether it works or not remains to be seen), and got dj a legit weapon. Things he has NEVER had. Let's see what happens with it. Either way, whether we took a qb this year or next year, they need a legit offensive weapon, and now we got one.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:18:00 AM
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 10:08:40 AMHe should be held responsible for his own play though.  Which at times feels like doesn't happen with all the excuse making.

I have to confess that when I read comments like this, I feel like people have become emotionally invested in DJ's outcome.  Are you suggesting that protection and receiving don't matter and that a good QB can magically put up big numbers?  That is clearly what the term "excuse making" suggests.  An impartial observer would refer to what you call "excuse making" as a reasoned appreciation that a QB's performance isn't in a vacuum.  The support a QB receives in terms of coaching, protection, and receiving weapons impacts both their play and their development.  It sure seems like your "feelings" are rather perjurative to those who try to have a deeper appreciation of the game.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:14:48 AMThe only flaw in this reasoning is the assumption that when your team is ready, you just dial 1-800-quarterback and get one. Usually the opportunity to get one doesn't present at the perfect time. That's why middle of the road teams end up with guys like Elvis Grbac, Brad Johnson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kirk Cousins, and washed up Brett Favre.

On the other side of that coin you have teams like the Eagles, 49ers, and the Cowboys who parlayed talented rosters and QB support into finding their franchise QBs in rounds other than the first one.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: uconnjack8 on April 26, 2024, 10:24:24 AM
Even if you don't think DJ is the guy, I don't see why drafting a worthy WR at 6 is something to fret over. 

I get people want a different QB.  Truly elite QBs are rare, so if we assume the Giants upgrade DJ with a QB who is not in that category, they will need top tier talent around him. 
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:27:01 AM
https://x.com/PFF_Giants/status/1783864854643671157
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 26, 2024, 10:24:24 AMEven if you don't think DJ is the guy, I don't see why drafting a worthy WR at 6 is something to fret over. 

I get people want a different QB.  Truly elite QBs are rare, so if we assume the Giants upgrade DJ with a QB who is not in that category, they will need top tier talent around him.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:19:47 AMOn the other side of that coin you have teams like the Eagles, 49ers, and the Cowboys who parlayed talented rosters and QB support into finding their franchise QBs in rounds other than the first one.


2 superbowl appearances, 0 superbowl wins. Cowboys own us, but they are still kind of a hot mess. I mean, now we're back to the "can you find a franchise quarterback somewhere else besides the top 10" discussion, which is usually good for 10 pages or more. The truth is sure you can, but the odds are significantly against you. Almost like catching lightning in a bottle. I don't think most teams really even go after later round quarterbacks with a plan to make him the starter. Usually he's drafted as a backup and the stater gets injured and the backup siezes the opportunity. 
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:37:11 AM
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:35:18 AM2 superbowl appearances, 0 superbowl wins. Cowboys own us, but they are still kind of a hot mess. I mean, now we're back to the "can you find a franchise quarterback somewhere else besides the top 10" discussion, which is usually good for 10 pages or more. The truth is sure you can, but the odds are significantly against you. Almost like catching lightning in a bottle. I don't think most teams really even go after later round quarterbacks with a plan to make him the starter. Usually he's drafted as a backup and the stater gets injured and the backup siezes the opportunity. 

If you value Super Bowls, how about the trophies won by the Bucs (Brady), Rams (Stafford), and the Broncos (Manning) none of whom acquired their QB via the draft (even)?
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Painter on April 26, 2024, 10:37:27 AM
One thing is for sure, B&Ming and whining after the fact helps no one. And if before the fact, it does little more than to sustain out-of-touch thinking. Nabers was the Giants consensus Mock Draft choice day after day from the start of the silly season through last night. Indeed, "waking up", wishing well, and rooting is what we all should be doing.

Cheers!

Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: jimc on April 26, 2024, 10:37:40 AM
I for one, elect to support my team whoever the QB is, whoever the coach is and whoever the owner is.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: kartanoman on April 26, 2024, 10:41:24 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 08:59:27 AMTim,

I have been a cyclist all my life.  Cyclists are all about making their bikes as light as possible.  Yet the harsh reality is there is no single component that can magically eliminate all the desired weight.  It's take the kickstand away for a few ounces, a different frame, maybe a pound or two, eliminate the peddles a few more ounces, and so on and so on.

To me, that is similar to NFL team building.  An NFL team has 22 starters and many more key role players.  So the addition of a single player is highly unlikely to "move the needle."  What moves the needle is methodically adding quality players (especially in the trenches) over a period of time with a quality coaching staff and culture in place.

As for Jones not being able to "get him the ball," that is more myth (thanks to the BBH echo chamber) than reality.

To add to your analogy, Rich @MightyGiants .

I, too, used to cycle and do 100K rides with the type of riders you described. Me, I was a soccer goalkeeper who was running six miles a day back then, and raced with a mountain bike that was a boat anchor in comparison to the others.

When we'd all be on a level stretch, they'd pull away from me. But, when the steep hills came, they all shifted their gears and were huffing and puffing until they heard the freight train that was me chugging up the hills and passing them, much to their disgust  :happy:  as my running stamina kicked in and the chorus of obscenities faded as I reached the top and over I went. Of course, as soon as they all made the top, it was over for me as they kicked it into high gear and blew me away and gave me more fanfare as they passed by.

This coming season is not last season. It is going to be different because there are different coaches, players and staff who are going to go about it a different way. How much impact that has on Jones' performance is yet to be seen. Nobody is disagreeing that his overall performance has been disappointing and that he can turn it around in a flash, if at all.

If his new line can give him the time, the Giants' new blue-chip player (NOTE: which I love the pick, btw, as it was an outstanding value pick that also addressed need) and he will develop a relationship and, hopefully, turn bad fortunes around.

But I also agree one player does not a team make. So, back to the drawing board today and let's see what Schoen has up his sleeve.

So far, so good.

Peace!
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: TONKA56 on April 26, 2024, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:37:11 AMIf you value Super Bowls, how about the trophies won by the Bucs (Brady), Rams (Stafford), and the Broncos (Manning) none of whom acquired their QB via the draft (even)?

I guess, if you're fine with all-in one shots. I thought we were trying to build sometime sustainable. I mean, there are at least many examples, and probably a lot more, of teams that brought in a high profile quarterback who was getting long in the tooth and it didn't work out. Either the guy got injured or something else broke down...and then the team succumbed to cap issues and the whole thing desolved.

I'll bow out now.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:18:00 AMI have to confess that when I read comments like this, I feel like people have become emotionally invested in DJ's outcome.  Are you suggesting that protection and receiving don't matter and that a good QB can magically put up big numbers?  That is clearly what the term "excuse making" suggests.  An impartial observer would refer to what you call "excuse making" as a reasoned appreciation that a QB's performance isn't in a vacuum.  The support a QB receives in terms of coaching, protection, and receiving weapons impacts both their play and their development.  It sure seems like your "feelings" are rather perjurative to those who try to have a deeper appreciation of the game.

I'm suggesting, as I wrote in the rest of that post, that when plays were there to be made he didn't make them.  Even if they hadn't won a single game more than they did if the plays that were available to be made were made we'd feel better about Jones.  He simply didn't make them.  Maybe there were only 3 or 4 plays on a given game where he had open receivers and decent protection.  He has to be able to make those plays and he didn't.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 11:41:22 AM
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 26, 2024, 08:56:38 AMAnd they already had one of those in Hyatt last year. I love Nabers. And they are stuck with Jones this year no matter what. But it they can't find Jones replacement next year by the time they do Nabers will be approaching free agency and this whole thing would be wasted. No matter how special he is.

Nabers is LIGHT YEARS ahead of jalin hyatt. not even remotely in the same conversation.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 11:51:50 AM
Quote from: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 11:41:22 AMNabers is LIGHT YEARS ahead of jalin hyatt. not even remotely in the same conversation.
B-one: I think you may have gone a bit overboard but I agree he's already better and more NFL-ready than Hyatt. lol
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Jolly Blue Giant on April 26, 2024, 11:52:44 AM
The discussions/arguments that go back and forth between the fans who are pro-DJ and negative-DJ, remind me of my college days when I was a math major/computer programming minor. I used to program using IBM punch cards in which each card was a line of code. After finishing a program, I'd wrap a rubber band around the cards, walk across campus to the room that had a compiler. The next day, the results of the program I had written would be in my box. It would be printed out on a single page of green and white track paper, which would then be handed in as my homework assignment. However, when I made a big mistake, I'd get a stack of track paper that resembled a Chicago phone book. The reason: the dreaded "do-loop"...stick with me, there is a point I want to make

In programming in the old days of Fortran, Pascal, etc., lines of code are used to solve a problem. There are "if" statements that are inserted called a conditional process statements that specifies a test expression (basically works like a train railway switch). If the expression does not satisfy the process, it loops back into the program to try a second condition. The "do-loop" hell, is when there is a mistake in the program that causes the secondary "if" statement to run the process right back through the original "if" statement that in turn, cause the compiler to keep running as it is stuck in a never ending loop and printing page after page of bad data

Such is the never ending discussion between those who want DJ replaced ASAP and those who think DJ has not been given the right opportunity to succeed. We are stuck in a never-ending "do-loop" that has been printing paper (in our case, digits on a monitor) for better than a year now. It's the exact same argument on both sides for the millionth time as though if it is made "just one more time", someone will come around and agree. It will never happen. So if we could just go forward and get behind the QB we have, that'd be swell

Edit: this is in response to an earlier post on this thread in which the discussion had turned to "we must replace DJ" and "we need to support DJ"...but as I see this post ending at the end of the thread, it's no longer relevant. My bad[/i]
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 12:47:58 PM
https://x.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1783895059282239771

https://x.com/art_stapleton/status/1783886865868746762
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: londonblue on April 26, 2024, 01:09:49 PM
Day one of the draft you make headlines that build interest. Days two and three you make picks that build rosters.

No matter how good he is/becomes Nabers will have only a peripheral impact on franchise trajectory unless we make our remaining five picks count to improve other areas

Schoen was correct when he noted we are more than one or two players away. His drafts have contributed to this talent deficit because they have not yet yielded a single slam dunk player on days 2,3.

Bellinger as a solid TE2 and McFadden as ILB2 are arguably the only value picks he has made so far. We can hope other guys like Wandale, JMS, Hyatt, Belton emerge with time/coaching but out of the box it has been a bit disappointing so far if we are honest.

This simply has to improve, both in terms of GM/staff player selection and coaching staff player development, for any Giants fan to have any chance of rediscovering happiness!
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: kartanoman on April 26, 2024, 01:09:57 PM
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 11:51:50 AMB-one: I think you may have gone a bit overboard but I agree he's already better and more NFL-ready than Hyatt. lol

Seeing ESPN compare Nabers to Ja'Marr Chase, now THAT'S a comparison I'm paying attention to!!!

Peace!
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 12:47:58 PMhttps://x.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1783895059282239771

Rich: I agree with this point-of-view 100 percent and mentioned it briefly elsewhere (maybe even above).

There is a decent probability a veteran QB who's better than average could shake loose in the summer.

Maybe even sooner, if the Giants are willing to part with any of next year's draft picks. It's a real thing.

Bob
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 04:51:29 PM
Quote from: y_so_blu on April 26, 2024, 09:07:40 AMWe needed a quarterback more than we needed a wide receiver. One of my favorite quarterback prospects fell into our lap at #6 and we didn't take him.

So let me check... no. No, I am not waking up happy.

you can argue we needed a receiver just as bad. and there happened to be a better receiver prospect, by a mile, than any of the remaining qb prospects. thats the simple truth right there.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: Philosophers on April 26, 2024, 10:05:04 AMI think we need to look at it this way.  Nabers was a top shelf addition, however, we need a Guard and RB.  That should complete the talent upgrade then it will be up to the new OL coach to fuse the OL into a good cohesive group.

After that, DJ will only have 1 year (next season) to either be the QB or next draft we will go into full bore draft a QB mode.  We could have gotten one this season albeit with some uncertainty, but instead, we drafted a very high end talent with high floor and a super high ceiling.  You can't fault the team for that.

Very well said. this also forces the giants hand if jones stinks again this year. you got your wr. now you gotta get a guy that can feed him. for now, you hope your 160m qb can take the next step now that he finally has an elite weapon, and hopefully, an improved oline.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: B1GBLUE on April 26, 2024, 04:59:03 PM
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2024, 11:51:50 AMB-one: I think you may have gone a bit overboard but I agree he's already better and more NFL-ready than Hyatt. lol

lol yeah might have gotten a little excited. but yeah, hyatt is generally just looked at as a deep threat, while nabers can literally do it all.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: DaveBrown74 on April 26, 2024, 05:23:10 PM
I was hoping we'd get a stud talent with this pick. We definitely got that. While I wanted a QB, I'm glad our FO had the discipline to not force a pick on one they weren't fully sold on and instead opted to go for a game changing, dynamic playmaker.

No issues whatsoever with this pick from me.

Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: AZGiantFan on April 26, 2024, 05:57:14 PM
Quote from: T200 on April 26, 2024, 09:30:43 AMThat's what you're reading into it, Rich.

What is Jones responsible for? Aren't his stats attributable to him and not his offensive line?

No.
Title: Re: Giants fans should be waking up happy this morning
Post by: LennG on April 26, 2024, 06:15:00 PM


 I think too many people, think, because some of us do not think Jones is the not guy, are down on Nabers. I think everyone agrees he is a remarkable talent. Where we differ is--is Nabers another shiny hood ornament that will make some special plays but not be able to help us win because our QB won't be able to deliver the ball to him?

Many said the exact same thing about Barkley--remarkable talent, but why draft him when we have no OL to help him achieve greatness? Now, according to some, Nabers is the answer Jones was waiting for, well we shall see. All the excuses are over, but, I'll bet if the Giants do not succeed, there will still be excuses for Jones.
If Jones fails, it does set this franchise back another 2-3 years of waiting for the new QB to get it going.

As someone said a few pages back, those who tend to repeat their mistakes will never succeed. IMVHO we are doing the same thing as we did when we drafted Barkley. Great talent but no one to really help him become as great as he could be.