Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 05, 2024, 12:49:13 AMIf you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 05, 2024, 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to continue the rouse that his success was predicted on an elite Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline was anything but good.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Well, you have certainly convinced me.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 04, 2024, 08:28:31 PMYou asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Eli played from 2005 through 2012 on average with a top five to top ten offensive line.

In 2013 he played behind the 28th ranked offensive line, and here were his numbers.

57% - 18 TD 27 Int 69.4 RTG 38.6 QBR

Are you implying that his offensive line had no impact on his performance?

And secondly to say that 75% of his career he played behind a bad one is simply not true.

The numbers show otherwise.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, but I do have a problem with someone disagreeing with me and throwing in put down remarks, that is what I have a problem with, and the guidelines to this forum show we are not supposed to be doing that.

Also go look at the lines Tom Brady played behind, I uploaded most of his years, top 5 to top 10 O lines for over twelve seasons.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 05, 2024, 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Here are my answers to your objections and I will do so in civil way, all I ask is if you can please do the same to me, thank you.

Here is your question to me "Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know."

Here is what you specifically said "Tom Brady, it's a complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career."

Here are what the facts show regarding Tom Brady's offensive line rankings during his career.

Bucs O line

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

Patriots O line

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

You said it was a complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.

What I just showed is that it wasn't a myth, it was the complete opposite. For the majority of his career he has been playing behind an elite level offensive line.

If you want to say that for a year or two Eli Manning and Tom Brady were able to produce at a high level under a bad offensive line, I'm willing to concede that point, but they both needed star WR's and TE's to make that happen.

However, the premise that Eli Manning and Tom Brady consistently played behind poor offensive lines, I respectfully disagree.

If you consider DJ's best years were behind the 17th and 18th ranked O lines, and his worst years the 30th, 31st, and 30th, then he has always been behind an atrocious O line.

I also consider Eli's prime years to be right out of the gate starting in 2005 when he was a young man, and during those first four years he played behind a top five offensive line, which I shared in my previous posts.

My fundamental point is this, Eli Manning nor Tom Brady would not have been able to sustain years of high-level production in the passing game without a good offensive line, nothing more, nothing less.

2013 and 2017 regarding Eli Manning prove my point.

In any event you can have the last word, as I really have nothing more to say.

I'm going to relax for the rest of the day.

Excellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

Quote from: Trench on May 05, 2024, 12:26:16 PMExcellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

Trench,

Thank you for your comments and reasonable approach. You took into consideration both sides of the discussion without putting anyone down, and I really appreciated that, so thank you once again.

Good points about Dallas as well.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 12:08:06 PMThe Simms and Eli example are now 25 and 40 years old; plus, Eli didn't take 6 years to mature. He was a SB MVP by year 3...it's an overused and poor example. 

Today, the game is fundamentally different and QB maturation reflects that reality.  Kids have access to professional camps from age 8 on, colleges are no longer running wishbones and student body left/right; today college offenses are as sophisticated as the NFL. College nutrition and strength program are also on par with NFL clubs. It no longer takes 3+ years for NFL QBs to emerge. Just look at every QB to enter the NFL in the past decade; you'll notice an obvious and fundamental trend. 

Matt , Year 4 for Eli I believe was his Super Bowl year. Prior to that, the teams offense was quite up and down despite having guys like Shockey, Toomer, Plaxico, Tiki (who was a better pass catcher than Barkley) etc. They got blanked by the Panthers in a playoff game even. In fact even the Super Bowl year the offense was inconsistent despite having a whole tier level of weapons better than DJ and an offensive line coached by Pat Flaherty that had Diehl, Seubert, Snee, O'Hara and MCKenzie.

 If we are being honest, that combination between OL coach, OL talent and receiving weapons is in another stratosphere compared to anything that DJ has ever had thus far in his career.

I think members here have dug their heels in at this point.

My point is simple , I think we can all agree that DJs support system when you combine the 3 items mentioned above has been absolute bottom barrel. This year in itself will be different because we all (or mostly) agree this will probably be the best combination of those 3 things in his career.

Let's see what he can do when he actually has the main things that most successful QBs in the NFL have. Like I said, in an ideal world I would have rather had Maye because I think the talent is top 5 QB special. But short of that, I still believe there is at least a possibility that DJ could be good with the support system he has around him now.

This year may finally and mercifully be the year we figure out if the greatest failure was DJ or the even greater failure was taking so long to get a half decent supporting cast around him.

Wow! Is that such a challenging question that it requires all that cockadoodle? Good gosh! In any case, we would do well to define what we mean by "Great..." in 25 words or less, beholder's eye or otherwise, or is that just too much to ask?

Cheers!

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 06, 2024, 10:24:35 AMI think members here have dug their heels in at this point. This, this right here

My point is simple , I think we can all agree that DJs support system when you combine the 3 items mentioned above has been absolute bottom barrel. This year in itself will be different because we all (or mostly) agree this will probably be the best combination of those 3 things in his career.

I do agree that DJ has been provided with pizz poor support his entire career. 

I don't agree this will probably be the best combination of those 3 things in his career.  I need to see it on the field, particularly the OL.  We've been burned on this too long, going back to Eli's wasted years,  to take anything on faith.  I personally won't go any further than cautiously hopeful, ready to be disappointed yet again.

Sorry.. My answer is O line

Great = ?

Cheers!