Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: B1GBLUE on May 03, 2024, 03:24:55 PMfor sure...but he also had a good to great oline most of his career, and the perfect system for him to work in. think about how many guys they were able to swap out like edelman and welker over the years basically seamlessly. the system you are in can be just as important as the people executing it. save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC.

What evidence do you have to support that statement?  Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure.  The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds.  It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB.  In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system. 

"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"

This statement is just false.   

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year

Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter. 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:22:43 AMI'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that high-performing Oline(s) were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...

Great stuff as usual king 👊

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 03, 2024, 09:50:15 AMIs a great WR behind an average QB better, or is a great QB with average receivers better? That is the question

I was reading through Great Blue North this morning and saw this blip and figured I'd share https://gbnreport.com/giants-report-thoughts-on-the-draft/

Maybe there's more hope than some believe 

"...in fact, there have been rumblings that head coach Brian Daboll had been lobbying for the Giants to take a WR with their first round pick, possibly even if one of the top QB was still on the board at that point. Just maybe Daboll recalls that Josh Allen, whom he has been credited with 'developing' in Buffalo really didn't emerge as a top player in the NFL until the Bills went out and acquired a true #1 receiver in Stefon Diggs. Whatever, Giants fans probably shouldn't underestimate how impactful a really good receiver can have on a team.

Indeed, in addition to the Bills' Allen, Joe Burrow didn't really take off in Cincinnati until the Bengals' selected Ja'Marr Chase, his former teammate at LSU with the 6th in 2021, while there questions being asked in Miami whether Tua Tagovcailoa was indeed a legitimate franchise QB before the Dolphins brought in Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle. And we could go and name QBs from Jaylen Hurts to Geno Smith whose careers improved dramatically once given elite receivers with which to work.

And one can also look at the Giants own history. Back in 2008, for example, they appeared to be on cruise control to a possible second straight Super Bowl appearance before Plaxico Burress shot himself – and his career – in the leg and the 11-1 Giants finished the season 1-4 and crashed out of the playoffs in the first round. They were crowned champions again in 2011 with Eli throwing to a couple of Pro Bowl receivers in Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz, only to have the bottom fall out the following season, which coincided with Nicks being injured and never playing at that level again. And while there has been a tendency to dismiss the impact of Odell Beckham, the reality is that Eli had the best three-year run of his career from 2014-2016 during which the Giants had a top 10 offense in both 2014 and 2015 and made the playoffs in 2016. It's also hard not to notice that the bottom really fell out for the Giants in 2017 around the time that Odell was injured. Indeed, the fact is that over the course of his career, Eli was a very good QB when he had special receivers, but was closer to ordinary when he didn't..."

Jolly, I think Daboll probably wanted Maye due to his potential great tools converting into a Justin Herbert or even Josh Allen 2.0 in the NFL. Short of that, they probably reasoned no other QB really was a clear upgrade to the upside of a DJ if he is given better tools to work with.

The points GBN made about better receivers was on point.

I think the following at least from a potential standpoint can be looked at as a positive:

1. Good offensive minded coaching staff in place,   
2. Good OL coach finally in place,   
3. Decent WR unit with an average to above WR1 in place 
4. Decent enough OL with not too many rookies with long learning curves and some depth in case of injury 

5. A capable enough RB by committee core with some pass blocking ability   ....maybe

I worry about #5 the least in a well constructed pass-heavy scheme and Schoen/Daboll didn't seem to mind losing Barkley, so I think they feel the same way.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 09:59:01 AMRic,

I like your post. I will say, to me this question is akin to which tire on a car is the most important.  For an offense to be successful you need a good QB and at least one really good receiving threat (can be a WR or special TE)

Waller was supposed to be that 'de-facto' WR1 and that experiment failed miserably (along with the OL).

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 10:39:50 AMWaller was supposed to be that 'de-facto' WR1 and that experiment failed miserably (along with the OL).

Yeah, everything was looking good right up until Waller suffered that hamstring injury in the week leading up to opening day.  It was all downhill from there. 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Matt

 Just an excellent post to show that QBs CAN perform with a very subpar OL. For all the excuses Jones has had for the past 4-5 years that he needs a great OL to become a real NFL QB, we have seen many instances of QBs having banner years when, in fact, their OL sucked.
Thanks for this great post.

The two biggest ingredients this offense was missing under the assumption that most agree Daboll/Kafka are half decent or better offensive coaches, was WR1 and OL coach.

I honestly don't think it's as much the talent on the OL as much as it is getting 5 players to play like one and actually being able to pick up even the simplest stunts and twists as a unit.

With that said between Bracillo and Nabers , I'm the most excited I've ever been to watch our offense in quite sometime. Nabers is coming in with the potential not just to be some middling WR1 but that separation ability he has is absolutely world class. He did it in the SEC and his size, speed change of direction combination is right there with the likes of a J'Marr Chase or a faster Brandon Aiyuk.

The ironic thing is there was quite a ground-swell brewing amongst the fanbase to nix both Simms and Eli because both of them took longer than expected to really flourish within the Giants offense. Part was maturation, part was getting talent around them. DJ is in a similar boat. I really don't see Dave Brown here. He is not beyond hope in my humblest of opinions, gentleman.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 11:52:32 AMThe ironic thing is there was quite a ground-swell brewing amongst the fanbase to nix both Simms and Eli because both of them took longer than expected to really flourish within the Giants offense. Part was maturation, part was getting talent around them. DJ is in a similar boat. I really don't see Dave Brown here. He is not beyond hope in my humblest of opinions, gentleman.

The Simms and Eli example are now 25 and 40 years old; plus, Eli didn't take 6 years to mature. He was a SB MVP by year 3...it's an overused and poor example. 

Today, the game is fundamentally different and QB maturation reflects that reality.  Kids have access to professional camps from age 8 on, colleges are no longer running wishbones and student body left/right; today college offenses are as sophisticated as the NFL. College nutrition and strength program are also on par with NFL clubs. It no longer takes 3+ years for NFL QBs to emerge. Just look at every QB to enter the NFL in the past decade; you'll notice an obvious and fundamental trend. 

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 10:06:39 AMWell...... based upon Tom Bradys rotisserie of average WRs playing way above their heads, you have to go with the QB position

"The clothes" do not make the man....never believed that old saying

See it as you wish but, as you do, you might want to reflect on the fact that Tom Brady & Co lost not one but two Lombardis to Eli (117-117-0) Manning who has been described- fairly or not- as a profoundly mediocre Regular Season QB.

Cheers!

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
  2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
  2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
  2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

It is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

Your stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:35:34 AMWhat evidence do you have to support that statement?  Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure.  The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds.  It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB.  In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system. 

"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"

This statement is just false.   

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year

Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter. 

Here are more stats of Eli Manning's offensive line rankings

2010 ranked 13th

https://www.pff.com/news/2010-offensive-line-rankings-%25e2%2580%2593-part-2

2012 ranked 11th

link

2013 ranked 28th

worst year of his career

18 TD's to 27 Int and an atrocious QBR Rating

link

2014-2016 lines were ranked around 20th

2017 ranked 26th

link

So in 2013 and 2017 when is offensive line was absolutely atrocious, he put up his worst years, and was ultimately benched for Geno Smith in 2017.

For the majority of his career 2005-2012 he played behind a top 5 to top 10 offensive line.

Then from 2013-2017 the line began to deteriorate.

In two out of four of those years he was atrocious, and it wasn't his fault, because his line let him down.

I will work on Tom Bradys offensive line numbers later when I have more time

Quote from: LennG on May 04, 2024, 07:43:00 PMYour stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?

Lenn,

You make a good point.

we need to keep in mind Eli in 2011 had not one, but three elite WR's in Nicks, Manningham and Cruz.

With that supporting cast he was able to do it for one year, but as I have brought out up above he couldn't elevate the team in 2013 with the 28th ranked O line.

In fact he threw 18 TD's to 27 Int's and a QBR rating that is awful.

Then in 2017 his line was ranked 26th, and he got benched.

The question we need to ask is why couldn't Eli Manning elevate the entire offense in 2013 and 2017 if his O line didn't matter?

The answer is because his O line did matter, and it was letting him down and that is why he had his worst years.

It wasn't his fault, as his line let him down but this is what the data is showing.

I will work on Tom Brady's offensive line later when I have more time.

I'm tired now

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

You asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Here are Tom Brady's offensive line numbers, his last three were on the Bucs, and the rest were on the Patriots.

Tampa Bay Bucs offensive line rankings

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

New England Patriots offensive line rankings

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

The majority of this man's career he was playing behind a top five offensive line. Whether that was with the Bucs or the Patriots.

If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

Have at it, as I'm now going to go to sleep.