Please consider watching Amani Toomer's post game comments from 27:25-27:55.
https://www.giants.com/video/giants-postgame-live-takeaways-from-week-6-x9885
I think what Toomer says is reflective of what many have been attempting to articulate. In any event, it is another metric to utilize in the overall evaluation of the QB.
Quote from: Trench on October 17, 2023, 04:17:41 PMPlease consider watching Amani Toomer's post game comments from 27:25-27:55.
https://www.giants.com/video/giants-postgame-live-takeaways-from-week-6-x9885
I think what Toomer says is reflective of what many have been attempting to articulate. In any event, it is another metric to utilize in the overall evaluation of the QB.
Absolutely. Check out my All-22 notes on TT.
sorry, but FIVE years and the ball has to get out quicker for success tells me everything I need to know.
DC will gameplan for a running QB, ultimately in time it is his ability in the passing game that tells the story.
Quote from: Trench on October 17, 2023, 04:17:41 PMPlease consider watching Amani Toomer's post game comments from 27:25-27:55.
https://www.giants.com/video/giants-postgame-live-takeaways-from-week-6-x9885
I think what Toomer says is reflective of what many have been attempting to articulate. In any event, it is another metric to utilize in the overall evaluation of the QB.
That Taylor led offense led to zero touchdowns and two goal line failures. Tell me again how the offense looked better under Taylor than Jones.
Quote from: madbadger on October 17, 2023, 09:39:07 PMThat Taylor led offense led to zero touchdowns and two goal line failures. Tell me again how the offense looked better under Taylor than Jones.
That he got to the goal line twice? Isn't that already better than Jones? Did Jones even cross midfield twice?
Jones always had these deficiencies, but some of them were covered up last season by regularly using Jones as a runner. That was easier done when they weren't really planning on bringing back Jones, but they pulled back on those plays when they gave him $40 mil AAV. And with that, Jones' singular edge evaporated. Without designed runs, Jones isn't as good a QB as Taylor
Quote from: madbadger on October 17, 2023, 09:39:07 PMThat Taylor led offense led to zero touchdowns and two goal line failures. Tell me again how the offense looked better under Taylor than Jones.
IMHO the point is more that he didn't look worse, despite being less than 1/7th the cost.
And the same can be said for his entire career versus Jones' entire career. In fact, if we want to split hairs, Taylor's looks a little better. And he has played for mediocre to bad teams for the most part.
Quote from: madbadger on October 17, 2023, 09:39:07 PMThat Taylor led offense led to zero touchdowns and two goal line failures. Tell me again how the offense looked better under Taylor than Jones.
Mentioned it in anaother thread, but the fact people suddenly care about TDs when DJ is not involved is absolutely ironic
Quote from: True Blue on October 17, 2023, 09:56:38 PMMentioned it in anaother thread, but the fact people suddenly care about TDs when DJ is not involved is absolutely ironic
When did I say that I don't care about touchdowns? You don't win football games without them.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 17, 2023, 09:55:50 PMIMHO the point is more that he didn't look worse, despite being less than 1/7th the cost.
And the same can be said for his entire career versus Jones' entire career. In fact, if we want to split hairs, Taylor's looks a little better. And he has played for mediocre to bad teams for the most part.
It's like arguing who's the taller midget. The franchise will never have the type of success we want with either, and yes Jones contract sucks.
Interesting how Justin Pugh was praised for his efforts coming off of the couch and he did well considering but gave up two sacks and false starts yet... Tyrod Taylor's first start in two years and the critics come out that he didn't play well enough and blame him for the loss for calling an audible.
He played well for four quarters and thats twice as many quarters than Daniel Jones has played in five games this year.
Quote from: madbadger on October 17, 2023, 10:06:08 PMIt's like arguing who's the taller midget is. The franchise will never have the type of success we want with either, and yes Jones contract sucks.
Obviously I agree. I have been arguing that we need to draft a QB for weeks now (as well as put veterans who are not in our long term plans on the block).
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 17, 2023, 10:58:49 PMObviously I agree. I have been arguing that we need to draft a QB for weeks now (as well as put veterans who are not in our long term plans on the block).
I know. That post was more for the people who read these threads and struggle with nuance.
Trench, great get =D>
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 17, 2023, 10:23:51 PMHe played well for four quarters and thats twice as many quarters than Daniel Jones has played in five games this year.
A QB who played four quarters that culminated in 0 TD drives and made a game-altering, boneheaded audible that likely cost them the game did not play well.
I listened to the whole video
They thought the line played well
They thought the receivers especially Hyatt played very well
They thought the return of Barkley was huge
They thought that Taylor played well but they faulted him for the bad play call he made that cost them vital points and momentum at the half.
Toomer thought Taylor got the ball out quick but he made it clear he wasn't comparing Taylor to Jones
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 17, 2023, 10:23:51 PMInteresting how Justin Pugh was praised for his efforts coming off of the couch and he did well considering but gave up two sacks and false starts yet... Tyrod Taylor's first start in two years and the critics come out that he didn't play well enough and blame him for the loss for calling an audible.
He played well for four quarters and thats twice as many quarters than Daniel Jones has played in five games this year.
Just wanted to quote this and give folks another opportunity to read it.
Excellent observation 👌🏾
Since
@T200 and
@Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance
I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor. If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched.
Taylor didn't LOOK bad, but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones. How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 08:24:22 AMSince @T200 and @Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance
I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor. If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched.
Taylor didn't LOOK bad, but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones. How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?
First, saying it's "one extreme" is a gross mischaracterization of what was said.
Another mischaracterization is saying people hold Jones to "an impossibly high standard."
No one absolved Tyrod of his bone-headed decision at the end of the first half. And had it not been for inept refs at the end of the game, it's a very good chance the Giants win, meaning Tyrod led them on a game-winning drive at the end, on the road in a hostile environment.
Former.players, analysts, and fans who watched the game have said that the offense looked more effective with Taylor under center. At a fraction of the cost. Neither QB has thrown a TD pass or engineered a TD drive through 6 drives. They are equal in that regard, I'm sure you would agree.
What's more palatable: a QB who can't put it in the end zone for 5.5 million or 40 million?
Edit to add/ask: what's the "impossibly high standard" you speak of?
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 08:34:59 AMFirst, saying it's "one extreme" is a gross mischaracterization of what was said.
Another mischaracterization is saying people hold Jones to "an impossibly high standard."
No one absolved Tyrod of his bone-headed decision at the end of the first half. And had it not been for inept refs at the end of the game, it's a very good chance the Giants win, meaning Tyrod led them on a game-winning drive at the end, on the road in a hostile environment.
Former.players, analysts, and fans who watched the game have said that the offense looked more effective with Taylor under center. At a fraction of the cost. Neither QB has thrown a TD pass or engineered a TD drive through 6 drives. They are equal in that regard, I'm sure you would agree.
What's more palatable: a QB who can't put it in the end zone for 5.5 million or 40 million?
Edit to add/ask: what's the "impossibly high standard" you speak of?
Tim,
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am certainly entitled to mine. You needed to call out Tyrod's critics, so I felt it was only fair to provide the counterpoint so people feel comfortable that both sides have a voice.
I wasn't planning on even posting what I did (I had thought about it, but decided against it), but when people critical of Taylor's performance were called out, I felt the need to balance things out.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 08:24:22 AMSince @T200 and @Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance
I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor. If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched.
Taylor didn't LOOK bad,
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 08:24:22 AMSince @T200 and @Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance
I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor. If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched.
Taylor didn't LOOK bad, but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones. How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?
but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones. How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?
The bar was not dropped, and some of this is twisting what has been discussed.
The offense functioned a bit better int he sense TT wasn't under as much duress and had time to get the ball our or downfield no one said production was there this week.
Point is it has been no better and no worse than anything Jones has done for the majority of the season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 09:13:18 AMTim,
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am certainly entitled to mine. You needed to call out Tyrod's critics, so I felt it was only fair to provide the counterpoint so people feel comfortable that both sides have a voice.
I wasn't planning on even posting what I did (I had thought about it, but decided against it), but when people critical of Taylor's performance were called out, I felt the need to balance things out.
Rich,
I posed two questions to you. Do you care to answer them or are we just moving on?
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 09:20:15 AMRich,
I posed two questions to you. Do you care to answer them or are we just moving on?
I will address the two questions.
Show me another post where a player's performance was being judged by their pay.
Show me a thread where someone posted a picture downfield on an incompletion pointing out who appeared open, but T2 didn't throw to. Now, it's possible T2 was perfect and didn't miss a single open receiver (although he did underthrow Hyatt pretty badly on one play, as mentioned in the video), but it seems unlikely. What seems more likely is the never miss an apparently open receiver is a standard reserved for only judging Daniel Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 09:44:57 AMI will address the two questions.
Show me another post where a player's performance was being judged by their pay.
Show me a thread where someone posted a picture downfield on an incompletion pointing out who appeared open, but T2 didn't throw to. Now, it's possible T2 was perfect and didn't miss a single open receiver (although he did underthrow Hyatt pretty badly on one play, as mentioned in the video), but it seems unlikely. What seems more likely is the never miss an apparently open receiver is a standard reserved for only judging Daniel Jones.
OK... you don't want to answer and I'm not going to press. Moving on.
lets not forget that in two games Jones had zero and 3 points. Tyrod did well coming off the bench and getting 9 that's about normal for the Giants /sarcasm/
Quote from: expatriot on October 18, 2023, 10:01:30 AMlets not forget that in two games Jones had zero and 3 points. Tyrod did well coming off the bench and getting 9 that's about normal for the Giants /sarcasm/
Should Jones scoring 31 points against the Cards count?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:04:09 AMShould Jones scoring 31 points against the Cards count?
It does. No one is suggesting that it doesn't or shouldn't. But... it's still one game.
In others, as pointed out. Zero points in two games, 3 in another.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:12:51 AMIt does. No one is suggesting that it doesn't or shouldn't. But... it's still one game.
In others, as pointed out. Zero points in two games, 3 in another.
Tim, why cite the score of only two games rather than all of them?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:17:27 AMTim, why cite the score of only two games rather than all of them?
Why cite the score of the one game he was actually productive and not the four others?
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:18:36 AMWhy cite the score of the one game he was actually productive and not the four others?
I didn't suggest only citing one, I was responding to a citation of just 2 games by pointing out one of the games left out. I think all of the games should be cited. Why are you challenging that?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:21:04 AMI didn't suggest only citing one, I was responding to a citation of just 2 games by pointing out one of the games left out. I think all of the games should be cited. Why are you challenging that?
You only asked about one game:
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:04:09 AMShould Jones scoring 31 points against the Cards count?
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:23:05 AMYou only asked about one game:
Exactly, I was seeing citations of just those two games and asked if the 31-point game should count. I am not sure how you concluded that I was suggesting that was the only game that should be considered.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:26:16 AMExactly, I was seeing citations of just those two games and asked if the 31-point game should count. I am not sure how you concluded that I was suggesting that was the only game that should be considered.
Jones played 5 games. Two games were mentioned, you mentioned the 31-point game. There were still 2 games not mentioned. Your only concern was his sole good 1/2 game out of 5.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:29:06 AMJones played 5 games. Two games were mentioned, you mentioned the 31-point game. There were still 2 games not mentioned. Your only concern was his sole good 1/2 game out of 5.
Where did I say that we should ignore those games?
I think we have to consider that for 2 seasons now it has been drilled into DJ not to commit turnovers. Due to the fact that the O has been limited due to various reasons. I am not absolving his play, but I believe that that would cause some hesitation on his part to getting the ball out quicker.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:31:33 AMWhere did I say that we should ignore those games?
Where did I say you said we should ignore them?
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:32:37 AMWhere did I say you said we should ignore them?
The difference is that when I mentioned the 31-point game, the two zero-point games were on the table. When the zero-point games were mentioned, the 31-point game had not been mentioned.
That's a critical distinction
Quote from: beaugestus on October 18, 2023, 10:32:15 AMI think we have to consider that for 2 seasons now it has been drilled into DJ not to commit turnovers. Due to the fact that the O has been limited due to various reasons. I am not absolving his play, but I believe that that would cause some hesitation on his part to getting the ball out quicker.
I understand your point but to me, that kind of says getting the ball out quicker has a direct correlation to turnovers. Don't get it out quicker to help prevent turnovers.
To me, the best way to prevent turnovers is to make better decisions and better throws. Faster or slower has no bearing on that. The speed with which he gets rid of the ball has a bearing on pass rush effectiveness and sacks, but not so much turnovers... unless he gets hit and fumbles.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:35:08 AMThe difference is that when I mentioned the 31-point game, the two zero-point games were on the table. When the zero-point games were mentioned, the 31-point game had not been mentioned.
That's a critical distinction
Rich,
We can go round and round the mulberry bush all day if you'd like. You don't want to concede the point? Fine. But please don't insult my intelligence.
As you said, there were two games mentioned. You asked ONLY about ONE game. That leaves two more games that were not mentioned. Plain and simple. Two plus one does not equal five.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 10:38:25 AMRich,
We can go round and round the mulberry bush all day if you'd like. You don't want to concede the point? Fine. But please don't insult my intelligence.
As you said, there were two games mentioned. You asked ONLY about ONE game. That leaves two more games that were not mentioned. Plain and simple. Two plus one does not equal five.
As the famous saying goes, "I would love to agree with you, but then I would be wrong" :laugh:
Quote from: beaugestus on October 18, 2023, 10:32:15 AMI think we have to consider that for 2 seasons now it has been drilled into DJ not to commit turnovers. Due to the fact that the O has been limited due to various reasons. I am not absolving his play, but I believe that that would cause some hesitation on his part to getting the ball out quicker.
John: I agree but there is a "time limit" to everything in development of a QB.
At SOME point, no matter how much potential a player possesses, you have to give up.
I don't think Giants have done so yet (correctly, IMO) but I'd say it's about a-quarter-to-midnight as of today, and as we all know.... at midnight the coach reverts to a pumpkin. I chose the word "coach" because I'm referring to both Cinderella's mode of transportation as well as to Daboll.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 10:40:36 AMAs the famous saying goes, "I would love to agree with you, but then I would be wrong" :laugh:
I'll see your quote and raise you:
The first law of holes, is an adage which states: "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
:cheers:
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 08:34:59 AMFirst, saying it's "one extreme" is a gross mischaracterization of what was said.
Another mischaracterization is saying people hold Jones to "an impossibly high standard."
No one absolved Tyrod of his bone-headed decision at the end of the first half. And had it not been for inept refs at the end of the game, it's a very good chance the Giants win, meaning Tyrod led them on a game-winning drive at the end, on the road in a hostile environment.
Former.players, analysts, and fans who watched the game have said that the offense looked more effective with Taylor under center. At a fraction of the cost. Neither QB has thrown a TD pass or engineered a TD drive through 6 drives. They are equal in that regard, I'm sure you would agree.
What's more palatable: a QB who can't put it in the end zone for 5.5 million or 40 million?
Edit to add/ask: what's the "impossibly high standard" you speak of?
Yes, Tim. Tyrod was able to move the ball effectively. If the Oline was able to do their job, that audible would have and should have resulted in a TD. I actually fault Daboll for poor clock management near the end of that drive. If they had the time and just one more second, they win the game with two field goals.
Tyrod had just 6 starts in 2021 and none since. We saw the results of Jones not having a start in 9 months against Dallas in the season opener. Zero points. Both faced top-ten Defenses. Jones outside of that Cards game has scored 7.75 points on average including Defensive scoring.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 18, 2023, 10:54:36 AMYes, Tim. Tyrod was able to move the ball effectively. If the Oline was able to do their job, that audible would have and should have resulted in a TD. I actually fault Daboll for poor clock management near the end of that drive. If they had the time and just one more second, they win the game with two field goals.
Tyrod had just 6 starts in 2021 and none since. We saw the results of Jones not having a start in 9 months against Dallas in the season opener. Zero points. Both faced top-ten Defenses. Jones outside of that Cards game has scored 7.75 points on average including Defensive scoring.
I really thought the light had gone on for Jones in the second half of the Cards game. To come out flat, albeit on a short week against the 9ers, was troubling to me.
I hope he's cleared to play and Pugh gets the nod again.
Btw, I don't consider Tyrod Taylor more than an adequate backup and a good veteran to work with Jones and DeVito. As a backup he moved the ball, didn't fumble for a turnover or throw an interception. A far better option than Glennon.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 11:03:36 AMI really thought the light had gone on for Jones in the second half of the Cards game. To come out flat, albeit on a short week against the 9ers, was troubling to me.
I hope he's cleared to play and Pugh gets the nod again.
I hope he's held out one more week to fully heal and I hope as was in the case with Josh Allen he comes away with an epiphany and balls out the rest of his career. Because the league has figured him out and he's broken.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 18, 2023, 10:54:36 AMYes, Tim. Tyrod was able to move the ball effectively. If the Oline was able to do their job, that audible would have and should have resulted in a TD. I actually fault Daboll for poor clock management near the end of that drive. If they had the time and just one more second, they win the game with two field goals.
Tyrod had just 6 starts in 2021 and none since. We saw the results of Jones not having a start in 9 months against Dallas in the season opener. Zero points. Both faced top-ten Defenses. Jones outside of that Cards game has scored 7.75 points on average including Defensive scoring.
4.75 pts per game over the 4 games not counting the cards game if the 12 points from the defense are removed.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 11:03:36 AMI really thought the light had gone on for Jones in the second half of the Cards game. To come out flat, albeit on a short week against the 9ers, was troubling to me.
I hope he's cleared to play and Pugh gets the nod again.
The Seahwaks game was the one for me where I really took a step back and realized what the reality of Jones was at.
Seattle is the #28 passing offense and #16 defense over all and Jones was 6-16 on 3rd downs with 136 passing yards, completely lost.
Quote from: babywhales on October 18, 2023, 11:10:16 AM4.75 pts per game over the 4 games not counting the cards game if the 12 points from the defense are removed. The Seahwaks game was the one for me where I really took a step back and realized what the reality of Jones was at.
Seattle is the #28 passing offense and #16 defense over all and Jons was 6-16 on 3rd downs with 136 passing yards, completely lost.
Chris, there was one play where I believe it was WDR or Slay on the right side flat and it was an intended one-read quick pass. There were 2 defenders on it and one was undercutting the route to pick the ball off and the other to hit him as he caught the pass. TT threw the ball away. See where I'm going with this...
I don't think Tyrod is better than Jones, Jones is more physically gifted overall. Not sure who has the stronger arm but can't imagine it's very different.
But until Jones shows otherwise I do think TT does gives this team a better chance to win most weeks. He may not be better, but he doesn't have the mental issues some say DJ has, with him in, the offense was at least to attempt more downfield shots, avoid and/or prevent "as much" pressure, and in general getting the ball out easier. He also had more time to throw against a good pass rush.
Maybe DJs clock is damaged, maybe the games too fast for him or something else whatever the reason may be its holding him back until he shows me a reason to believe otherwise. But TTs clock was just fine and the offense was more functional in several areas. Not great, but better than most of the season however low that bar may be. He wasn't seeking the checkdown every single play
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 11:18:00 AMI don't think Tyrod is better than Jones, Jones is more physically gifted overall. Not sure who has the stronger arm but can't imagine it's very different.
But until Jones shows otherwise I do think TT does gives this team a better chance to win most weeks. He may not be better, but he doesn't have the mental issues some say DJ has, with him in, the offense was at least to attempt more downfield shots, avoid and/or prevent "as much" pressure, and in general getting the ball out easier. He also had more time to throw against a good pass rush.
Maybe DJs clock is damaged, maybe the games too fast for him or something else whatever the reason may be its holding him back until he shows me a reason to believe otherwise. But TTs clock was just fine and the offense was more functional in several areas. Not great, but better than most of the season however low that bar may be. He wasn't seeking the checkdown every single play
Personally, I think the big difference is mindset.
Tyrod said he was going to go out and make the most of his opportunity. He went into the game with something to prove, he had an opportunity and was going to make the most of it.
He played smart, made quick field assessments, through downfield at the correct times, through the ball away at the right times, he was more aggressive with his pocket presence- stepping up and extending the play at the right time vs running and flushing out to the side, adjusted and advised blocking when needed and audibled correctly roughly three times and of course completely screwed up the one audible that will not be forgotten.
Tyrod was playing to win vs the 3rd highest pressure % of the season. He made a bad O line better with his reads, pocket presence and play.
Jones
I do not see a Jones playing that way. He scrambles to the side even when no pressure exist, rarely stepping up, checks down even when a receiver is open, he plays it safe all the time seldom taking the chances necessary to beat the best defenses.
If Jones could get his mind right I think he could be a stud QB. Coming out of last season I thought his development would get him there. However, in the face of pressure vs Dallas his PTSD kicked in and he is a mess mentally. He is not calm and collected at the line, he is more like Dave Brown Deer in headlights while he waits for the next horrible play to plague him.
He doesn't read the rush very well, hit the hot route very well, he is making a bad line worse with his poor reads, pocket presence and play.
For me the key thing here is that I don't think Taylor is better than Jones. It's more that they appear to be roughly similar in overall effectiveness. That statement holds true if you are just isolating Sunday night's game against what Jones has done under similar conditions this year, and it also holds true if you widen the lens and look at their whole careers (Taylor's passing stats are in fact a bit better than Jones' long term).
I don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 18, 2023, 11:38:55 AMI don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.
100% this.
Unfortunately, some will read this as a negative and critical post against Jones.
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 11:41:13 AM100% this.
Unfortunately, some will read this as a negative and critical post against Jones.
And that is completely their right to do if they so wish.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 18, 2023, 11:38:55 AMFor me the key thing here is that I don't think Taylor is better than Jones. It's more that they appear to be roughly similar in overall effectiveness. That statement holds true if you are just isolating Sunday night's game against what Jones has done under similar conditions this year, and it also holds true if you widen the lens and look at their whole careers (Taylor's passing stats are in fact a bit better than Jones' long term).
I don't think anyone is pounding the table that Jones is significantly inferior to Taylor. That is not the argument. The point is more that they are not dissimilar in overall effectiveness, and yet one is a career journeyman backup making relatively modest money, and the other is a very well-paid starter. Which if you're a Giants fan feels problematic.
That's the biggest thing that most are overlooking.
If that $40M went toward G and OL Depth and other areas, a Tyrod led team may actually be much more effective.
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 11:55:26 AMThat's the biggest thing that most are overlooking.
If that $40M went toward G and OL Depth and other areas, a Tyrod led team may actually be much more effective.
Agreed. It wasn't a question of Daniel or Tyrod. It was a question of Daniel or Tyrod and better players. Plus moving on from Daniel would've unburdened the franchise of the fairytale that Daniel Jones is a franchise QB, which has been holding the organization back for 5 years. We're still stuck in the Gettleman era and will be until his contract is off the books.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 18, 2023, 01:06:14 PMAgreed. It wasn't a question of Daniel or Tyrod. It was a question of Daniel or Tyrod and better players. Plus moving on from Daniel would've unburdened the franchise of the fairytale that Daniel Jones is a franchise QB, which has been holding the organization back for 5 years. We're still stuck in the Gettleman era and will be until his contract is off the books.
Couldn't agree more, $80++ Million, one less Gettleman mistake, and fewer checkdowns can go a very long way.
Toomer can say that all he wants in terms of softening the blow but his comments were a CLEAR indication that he thought the team played better behind Tyrod. That cannot be disputed when we read the text of what he stated
Quote from: T200 on October 18, 2023, 08:34:59 AMFirst, saying it's "one extreme" is a gross mischaracterization of what was said.
Another mischaracterization is saying people hold Jones to "an impossibly high standard."
No one absolved Tyrod of his bone-headed decision at the end of the first half. And had it not been for inept refs at the end of the game, it's a very good chance the Giants win, meaning Tyrod led them on a game-winning drive at the end, on the road in a hostile environment.
Former.players, analysts, and fans who watched the game have said that the offense looked more effective with Taylor under center. At a fraction of the cost. Neither QB has thrown a TD pass or engineered a TD drive through 6 drives. They are equal in that regard, I'm sure you would agree.
What's more palatable: a QB who can't put it in the end zone for 5.5 million or 40 million?
Edit to add/ask: what's the "impossibly high standard" you speak of?
I would add Daniel Jones OWN comments about Tyrod as proof that many of the people pushing back against Tyrod not playing too well are totally misguided.
Toomer said Tyrod played well.
Daboll said Tyrod played well.
Daniel Jones said Tyrod played well!
But people here still feel otherwise.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 08:24:22 AMSince @T200 and @Ed Vette are taking the one extreme, I am going offer up a counterpoint for balance
I find it interesting that the same people who hold Daniel Jones to an impossibly high standard dropped that bar to the ground for Tyrod Taylor. If Jones had scored just 9 points, made a huge mistake that cost the team the game, and failed to score twice while snapping the ball from the 1-yard line, there would be thread after thread calling for him to be benched.
Taylor didn't LOOK bad, but his RESULTS were no better than and arguably worse than Jones. How many games will a team win scoring just 9 points especially when the defense gives the offense 2 turnovers?
Since I am one of these people who hold Jones to the high standard I will reply to this.
I don't believe Tyrod is a better overall (potential) QB than Jones. But I am positive Jones is shaken and Tyrod gives the Giants a better chance to win at this time. The team looks smoother on offense in my opinion.
I always say winning is all that matters. Just win baby! This remains true with Tyrod. He lost and he ultimately failed. BUT I don't absolve him from any negativity which I would've had for Jones if the shoe were on the other foot. There is a major difference - one is the franchise QB and one is a journeyman backup. When the franchise guy screws up I will magnify it simply because he is expected to be better than the backup.
But as I mentioned last week and will reiterate now - Tyrod performance for me had more to do with examining what Daniel Jones is. I got my answer. Tyrod played a better defense than most teams of what Jones had to deal with this year, he moved the ball more fluidly, was way better on 3rd down, took less sacks, looked to have much more poise.
Did he win?....no...but he offered a glimpse into a comparison against Jones.
DJ can learn better pocket awareness and movement from Tyrod as well as greater downfield awareness and taking more 3rd down longer throws. DJ is more accurate than Tyrod.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 18, 2023, 02:28:10 PMDJ can learn better pocket awareness and movement from Tyrod as well as greater downfield awareness and taking more 3rd down longer throws. DJ is more accurate than Tyrod.
The idea that a fifth year starting QB making $40mm a year needs to "learn from " a $5mm/yr journeyman veteran backup in the later stages of his career is mind-boggling.
Is anyone saying Jalen Hurts can benefit from leaning from Marcus Mariotta? Or that Brock Purdy would stand to benefit from learning from Sam Darnold?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 18, 2023, 02:34:51 PMThe idea that a fifth year starting QB making $40mm a year needs to "learn from " a $5mm/yr journeyman veteran backup in the later stages of his career is mind-boggling.
Is anyone saying Jalen Hurts can benefit from leaning from Marcus Mariotta? Or that Brock Purdy would stand to benefit from learning from Sam Darnold?
Andy Dalton is going to turn Bryce Young into a stud
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 18, 2023, 02:34:51 PMThe idea that a fifth year starting QB making $40mm a year needs to "learn from " a $5mm/yr journeyman veteran backup in the later stages of his career is mind-boggling.
Is anyone saying Jalen Hurts can benefit from leaning from Marcus Mariotta? Or that Brock Purdy would stand to benefit from learning from Sam Darnold?
I agree with you. I would just add that if Jones has things to learn from Taylor, he would've picked them up over the last two training camps. He shouldn't be sitting on the bench making 40 million just learning how to do the fundamentals we expect a professional QB to do.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 18, 2023, 10:54:36 AMYes, Tim. Tyrod was able to move the ball effectively. If the Oline was able to do their job, that audible would have and should have resulted in a TD. I actually fault Daboll for poor clock management near the end of that drive. If they had the time and just one more second, they win the game with two field goals.
Tyrod had just 6 starts in 2021 and none since. We saw the results of Jones not having a start in 9 months against Dallas in the season opener. Zero points. Both faced top-ten Defenses. Jones outside of that Cards game has scored 7.75 points on average including Defensive scoring.
Fact is the O line has not done there job all year...you can run the ball in that situation with 15 seconds left but not with 8 or 10 they had....there was no time to get set and stop the clock , in fact the line did not even realize that if the run play didn't work they had to line up quickly to stop the clock.
A pass was the only play in that situation ....if not there throw it away and stop clock.
I just finished listening to Papa and Banks. They pointed out with Jones the team averaged 11 points per game. That dropped to 9 with Tyrod
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 05:20:24 PMI just finished listening to Papa and Banks. They pointed out with Jones the team averaged 11 points per game. That dropped to 9 with Tyrod
You're really starting to reach with these
2 more points? Whoa 🤯
5 games vs 1 c'mon, I'd be more interested in what their offenses each average over their career starts
Better yet, what did the offense with DJ average this year outside those 2 quarters against Arizona?
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 05:25:17 PMYou're really starting to reach with these
2 more points? Whoa 🤯
5 games vs 1 c'mon, I'd be more interested in what they each average over their career starts
Taylor has played in 86 games, with 11,086 yards and has 60 passing TDs and 19 Rushing TDs. Which averages out to be a 0.91 TDs a game
Jones has played in 59 games with 12,487 yards, 62 passing TDs and 13 Rushing TDS. This averages to be a TD every 1.27 TDs a game.
Granted Taylor has played a lot more games, but using the above figures, Jones, on his current career pace, would throw or run for 108 TDs over 86 games, which will broadly be 1.26 TDs a game.
So the question isn't about who is better, it's whether 0.36 TDs a game is worth the additional 35million and change that Jones earns. This 0.36 extra per game equates to 6.12 TDs a season.
Is it worth it?
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 05:33:53 PMBetter yet, what did DJ average this year outside those 2 quarters against Arizona?
I did the Math
in 17 quarters outside of that second half in Arizona, the offense with Daniel Jones is averaging 1.64 points a quarter, which comes to 6.58 points a game
I did 17 QTRS, because I omitted the 4th quarter of the Miami game since he did not play it in full.
28 points scored in those quarters
28 divided by 17 -= 1.64
It isn't about DJ vs TT, but there is some math for those that may be curious since some want to keep making it TT vs DJ for some unknown reason.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 18, 2023, 05:39:38 PMTaylor has played in 86 games, with 11,086 yards and has 60 passing TDs and 19 Rushing TDs. Which averages out to be a 0.91 TDs a game
Jones has played in 59 games with 12,487 yards, 62 passing TDs and 13 Rushing TDS. This averages to be a TD every 1.27 TDs a game.
Granted Taylor has played a lot more games, but using the above figures, Jones, on his current career pace, would throw or run for 108 TDs over 86 games, which will broadly be 1.26 TDs a game.
So the question isn't about who is better, it's whether 0.36 TDs a game is worth the additional 35million and change that Jones earns. This 0.36 extra per game equates to 6.12 TDs a season.
Is it worth it?
Great work on this, thanks for sharing.
I will vote in the No column, but others may feel the extra third of a score is worth it, they are entitled to believe that.
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 05:33:53 PMBetter yet, what did DJ average this year outside those 2 quarters against Arizona?
Outside of Arizona, he averages 0.00 points per game, with an average of 140.75 yards per game, with an average long pass of 21.25 yards, he averages 6.5 sacks per game - although take out the Seattle game and he averages 4.5 sacks per game (76.5 over a 17 game pace).
Quote from: madbadger on October 17, 2023, 09:39:07 PMThat Taylor led offense led to zero touchdowns and two goal line failures. Tell me again how the offense looked better under Taylor than Jones.
That they were in a position to win. Against a very good team. On Primetime. Jones would have been down 30-0 with 10 sacks. Just going off this year.
Tyrod screwed up then the refs screwed up. I have more confidence in Tyrod getting the ball where it belongs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 18, 2023, 05:20:24 PMI just finished listening to Papa and Banks. They pointed out with Jones the team averaged 11 points per game. That dropped to 9 with Tyrod
Your point is?...
Quote from: Trench on October 18, 2023, 06:57:57 PMYour point is?...
Idk what the point is, but it misses the point that this has never been a DJ vs TT thing.
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 05:25:17 PMYou're really starting to reach with these
2 more points? Whoa 🤯
5 games vs 1 c'mon, I'd be more interested in what their offenses each average over their career starts
Quote from: True Blue on October 18, 2023, 05:25:17 PMYou're really starting to reach with these
2 more points? Whoa 🤯
5 games vs 1 c'mon, I'd be more interested in what their offenses each average over their career starts
Why do you dismiss certain facts?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 19, 2023, 08:14:12 AMWhy do you dismiss certain facts?
Why do you do the same thing?
@ Mighy
Why are you jumping through hoops to prop up Daniel Jones?
We all know what Tyrod Taylor is . I don't think the question is if Tyrod is the better QB .
The real question is how is a journey man back up in the conversation with a QB being paid like a top 10 QB and is this oline and skill player to blame.
The answer clearly is it's Daniel jones fault. And let's see him play another game or like five or six more . Barkley was able to dive for a TD in that cardinal game from Luke the 10 yard line. He couldn't get in from the two yard line he Bills. If he got would we even be having this discussion?
Quote from: True Blue on October 19, 2023, 08:23:49 AMWhy do you do the same thing?
I don't, I listen to all points of view and take in all information