Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 10:28:59 AMTBF,

I think the issue is more of your strong desire to prove yourself right. You guys seem so driven by that, that your views of what happens are greatly skewed.  That strong desire has created situations where you do exactly what you admit to, posting things that agree with your opinion.  That sort of approach rarely leads to good or correct outcomes.

There is a perfect example on this thread.  The two Youtube videos were posted and were created by random dudes.  One was pro-Jones and called out haters, and the other was anti-Jones and called his supporters a cult (or something similar).  The pro-Jones video was ignored by all of you guys, you couldn't be bothered.  The anti-Jones video got all sorts of love and support from the Jones critics.  Objectively, the two videos were identical in terms of the quality and expertise of the source material.  Yet it wasn't hard to see how differently the critics viewed the material.  You will notice I did not like the Pro-Jones video because it failed my criteria for quality material.

That is hardly an isolated issue.  Because you guys are so driven, there are often flawed approaches to trying to prove your correctness.  Can you really blame me for pointing out obvious flaws?

That all said, I don't think my statements should be applied as blanket statements toward or describing those critical of Daniel Jones.  I am posting a thread by Ed Vette.  He has made it clear, over the last couple of seasons that he isn't a Jones supporter.  Yet, he clearly is open-minded and willing to adjust his views as more is learned.  This post of his is one of the best I have seen (especially on this topic) in quite some time


Now consider your reaction to my post about what the beat writers are saying.  Instead of acknowledging the access they have to the team (which allows for better insights), you talked about how beat writers don't decide who stays or goes.  From my vantage point, that does not sound like you are willing to entertain information that doesn't fit your existing point of view.

Here's the thing, in a few months' time, we will all learn if Jones is staying or going.  Regardless of the outcome, I will neither be right nor wrong.  For me, it will mean the biggest piece of the puzzle has been revealed (what Schoen and Dabble feel about Jones), and that's all that matters.  I will support whatever decision is made because, at this point I have no reason not to trust the judgment of both men (appreciating they know more than we do both about football and the situation).

If Jones stays I will be happy because I support the players on the team, and if Jones is the answer it means a quicker path to relevance.  If Jones goes I will be fine because clearly Daboll and Schoen don't see him as the answer and it's better to pull that bandaid off fast.  Nothing to be gained from keeping a guy around you don't think will help you achieve the success you seek.

Heck, they could keep him short-term just because they don't see a path to a proper upgrade this offseason, but long term they do intend to replace him.  No matter the path I am fine with it and I will neither be right nor will I be wrong.  I will simply be a fan hoping for the best

We aren't as determined to be as right as you think. There is a difference between sharing one's opinions, and trying to change peoples minds and telling them they are wrong. At the end of the day perception is reality.

I don't try to make anyone pro Jones anti Jones. If someone thinks another way that's fine. Many times I have tried tontell others we agree to disagree. I just try to talk about it, that's what forums are for, to discuss things.

Sure there are some debates, but I don't try to stir up controversy for the sake of website clicks or more star votes and likes on a topic I might post.

You on the other hand have very bluntly called others wrong for having an opinion different to you or Nick Felato and co. If you want to debate or challenge something, that is all fine and well. You clearly have made claims in previous topics that what you think is a fact. So, I do not think there is any way you can claim you do not desire to be right. If you think otherwise to each their own.

I can care less if I am right or wrong, I do not have to like Jones because the all 22 film or lack of interceptions on 2 yard throws say hes having a great year. If they resign Jones or not, I'm gonna root for my team and hope they win regardless of who plays. I'm not a GM, what I think means diddly, I never once claimed to be an expert. I have a fan's opinion, when we see what JS and BD really think, I'm just gonna trust them and hope they're right. I'm a Giants fan first and foremost.

Sure, I may engage in a debate or argument, and explain my thoughts or stance. That doesn't mean I have a desire to be right. At the end of the day like skmeone else said, anyone with an opinion is biased. I just don't try to change minds or claim to have facts. All I have is an opinion and I am happy to discuss or explain why. But, any stats, links or thoughts I share, I can confidently say that I stick by them always, not just when it is convenient for whatever point I am trying to make in a given topic.

The shine is going to come off Tua sooner rather than later. Lack of arm strength and lack of mobility and injuries are going to catch up to him soon.

Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 10:27:46 AMShannon Sharpe as many know is a 'shock jock' and those ESPN boys LOVE stirring the NY pot. That opinion means quite little. I'll take the multitude of more trustworthy analysts and guys that watch this team a ton more closely than what is quite likely a shock jock peripheral opinion.

He doesn't work for ESPN and is a hall of fame TE... Shock Jock? You guys will take Lawrence Tynes the former kickers thoughts on DJ but not one of the greatest TEs to ever play. Got it, kinda ridiculous though.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AMThat number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.

Exactly.  Ignoring how his his scrambling affects his time to throw still comes up.  But if he spends a lot of the 5 second average running for his life it is hardly the same as sitting in a nice clean pocket surveying the field for 5 seconds.  And the idea that there are metrics that counter the notion that a 40% increase in sacks is an indication that pass pro got worse doesn't pass my smell test.  It seems like an excuse for the O-line, to me.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.  In the end this will all be determined by football people when we see what the Giants and other teams think in cold hard cash, and then his how his future performance goes.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:22:51 AMhttps://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1595928496496574464

I'm not sure whether citing Shannon Sharpe helps or hurts your case, LOL.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:06:28 AMI'm not sure whether citing Shannon Sharpe helps or hurts your case, LOL.

I'm not trying to help or hurt anything, he made a comment, I agree hes just a guy, that's where it ends lol

If anyone thinks otherwise that is perfectly fine.

Article from a month ago, specifically before the Dallas Loss. Executives polled seemed split, but even those wanting him retained only suggested a 1 year deal, and the other suggested to not retain him at all because he lacks the ability to win in dropback passing situations.

"The franchise tag for a quarterback is estimated at $31.5 million next season, according to the salary cap site Over the Cap. Jones made under $4 million this year, and five quarterbacks -- Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray and Derek Carr -- are currently slated to make over $31 million next season".

"The Giants could absorb the hefty salary next year, with ample salary-cap space. But they also have to figure out a solution for Barkley, who seems like a prime candidate for the franchise tag in back-to-back years. The franchise tag for a running back is estimated to be in the $10-12 million range".

"That would leave the Giants needing to find a middle ground with Jones or turn to backup Tyrod Taylor for a much more manageable $5.5 million".

"One NFC general manager figured the Giants' "best option'' would be to re-sign Jones this offseason. Another executive with a potential NFC playoff team said there is "no way" he would build around the 2019 No. 6 overall pick, citing what he considered an inability to win in traditional drop-back situations, and the Giants' success in Daboll's scaled-back offense".

"An NFL executive with experience negotiating contracts suggested a one-year deal for midlevel money would make the most sense for both parties. Something in the $15 million to $20 million range".

"That is assuming there won't be a big, long-term deal out there for Jones".

"He's a bridge to the real future starter," the executive said.

"Another source pointed to the two-year, $28 million contract ($21 million guaranteed) Jameis Winston signed with the New Orleans Saints this past offseason as an example of what might work with Jones".

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35077485/what-does-daniel-jones-need-prove-part-giants-future

There is only one opinion that matters!

That's the Giants specifically JS!

Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.

Everyone has a right to their opinion!  It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.

https://youtu.be/-YuJy-RgKvs

Dan Orlovsky saying Jones has done enough to come back and compete next season. That he doesn't know if he's the starter but he's done enough to be given a chance to compete.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!

That's the Giants specifically JS!

Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.

Everyone has a right to their opinion!  It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.

Amen!   

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 23, 2022, 10:24:45 AMAnyone who posts one side of a discussion or argument is biased. No matter how they justify in their heads. With the exception of a few people like Tim, DB, Slugger who are more open minded. If you haven't noticed, I've posted both positive and negative about this QB. Usually to just balance the discussion.

I feel like I'm in a strange position here as I simultaneously believe that:

A) he is seriously under-rated here - with an average NFL-quality OL and a decent set of NFL-quality WRs (not 'elites at every position' as some have tried to frame it) I think he can be a top ten QB in the league.  If you look at it like horse-racing where they handicap the horses, he is currently carrying some of the highest weights in the field - and will do considerably better when he only has to carry average weight.

B) the best thing the Giants can do is let him (and Barkley) go so they have fully freed up resources to focus on attacking their many holes, solidifying the holes in a promising defense and adding quality in an offense, and to continue the horse analogy, reducing the handicap weight so the next guy gets a fair shot at developing during his rookie contract, something DJ's never had.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 10:58:24 AMOutside of having similar personalities, being white and physically the same size Eli and Daniel Jones are nothing a like in their games.

Leadership, toughness, an inability to perform well when the offense is trash, ability to flash in 4th quarter situations.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:28:21 AMI feel like I'm in a strange position here as I simultaneously believe that:

A) he is seriously under-rated here - with an average NFL-quality OL and a decent set of NFL-quality WRs (not 'elites at every position' as some have tried to frame it) I think he can be a top ten QB in the league.  If you look at it like horse-racing where they handicap the horses, he is currently carrying some of the highest weights in the field - and will do considerably better when he only has to carry average weight.

B) the best thing the Giants can do is let him (and Barkley) go so they have fully freed up resources to focus on attacking their many holes, solidifying the holes in a promising defense and adding quality in an offense, and to continue the horse analogy, reducing the handicap weight so the next guy gets a fair shot at developing during his rookie contract, something DJ's never had.

AZ

I agreed and disagree at the same time.

I don't want to see home grown talent leave and be successful elsewhere!

So letting them walk I'm torn!

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 11:11:30 AMI'm not trying to help or hurt anything, he made a comment, I agree hes just a guy, that's where it ends lol

If anyone thinks otherwise that is perfectly fine.

Despite having been a great player, I've never looked at him as being any kind of football mind.  Not nearly as good a football mind as his brother.  IOW, when it comes to football knowledge his is JAG.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!

That's the Giants specifically JS!

Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.

Everyone has a right to their opinion!  It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.

JS and the GMs of the several teams looking for a QB.