This is not a joke. Far from it. There is an article about the website below, which I have edited significantly in order to limit the size of this post.
Older members will recall the days of McCarthyism in the 1950's. This is no different, IMO. Bob
https://www.canceledpeople.com/home
When political data scientist David Shor got fired for sharing research that found peaceful protests were more politically effective than violent protests, a skilled manual laborer in the Mountain West had an idea: Why not create a database of so-called cancellations?
Over the next several months he started researching documented instances of cancel culture across the world and soliciting submissions. His project, CanceledPeople.org (and .com), is approaching 200 listings from the U.S., Canada, U.K., Germany, France, Indonesia and Australia. The website got a boost of attention earlier this month when Christina Hoff Sommers, the American Enterprise Institute scholar and "Factual Feminist" YouTube host, tweeted about the "well-sourced database" of cancellations. In an interview, the creator pulled back the veil on the project. (He declined to identify himself, except for his geography and field of work, but he did provide screenshots of account records verifying his ownership and operation of the site.) "Canceled People is not part of a larger organization," he wrote in an email last week. "It's really just a part-time project of mine, with my girlfriend helping out occasionally." Neither is an academic, as might be guessed from the project's research protocols, which lay out the rules for adding and removing people from public view. The tweet by Sommers triggered 75 submissions, which each take 20-30 minutes to review, the creator said. "Usually it's fairly clear whether or not they belong there, but some cases are tough," he said. "It would be good to have a panel of experts to discuss and vote on those cases.
Does it contain the Dixie Chicks?
Does it contain Colin Kapernick?
How about Chris Krebs?
Is Michael Atkinson in the database?
Did Samantha Bee make their list?
How about Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman?
How about Nike? I mean the right thinks corporations are people so surely they got on the list
What about Starbucks? I lost count of the number of times they were the target of cancelation
Remember Kathy Griffin?
NASCAR must have earned a place on that list after they banned Confederate flags, even the NFL and NBA could get in on that action
Well I will munch on some "freedom fries" while I think of some more names
Much like "fake news" cancel culture is just another toxic product of the right-wing propaganda/hate machine. They created the false "fake news" claim so that their consumers could easily dismiss facts in favor of their false right-wing propaganda. Now that those who are peddling the false right-wing talking points are being called out for the false claims and being held accountable for the destruction of those false claims cause, the right-wing propaganda/hate machine coined the term and idea of "cancel culture". It was the perfect invention, as my list shows, canceling people they didn't agree with has been a favored tactic of the right for some time, and so they could project their fault on their hated target of non-right-wing Americans and it would allow them to continue to spew lies and hate which has badly damaged our nation
The right has consistently preferred attack over defending or justifying their own misdeeds. So attacking people calling for truth and calling out hate, with "cancel culture" claims felt so "right" for them.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 07:23:32 AM
Does it contain the Dixie Chicks?
Does it contain Colin Kapernick?
How about Chris Krebs?
Is Michael Atkinson in the database?
Did Samantha Bee make their list?
How about Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman?
How about Nike? I mean the right thinks corporations are people so surely they got on the list
What about Starbucks? I lost count of the number of times they were the target of cancelation
Remember Kathy Griffin?
NASCAR must have earned a place on that list after they banned Confederate flags, even the NFL and NBA could get in on that action
Well I will munch on some "freedom fries" while I think of some more names
Much like "fake news" cancel culture is just another toxic product of the right-wing propaganda/hate machine. They created the false "fake news" claim so that their consumers could easily dismiss facts in favor of their false right-wing propaganda. Now that those who are peddling the false right-wing talking points are being called out for the false claims and being held accountable for the destruction of those false claims cause, the right-wing propaganda/hate machine coined the term and idea of "cancel culture". It was the perfect invention, as my list shows, canceling people they didn't agree with has been a favored tactic of the right for some time, and so they could project their fault on their hated target of non-right-wing Americans and it would allow them to continue to spew lies and hate which has badly damaged our nation
The right has consistently preferred attack over defending or justifying their own misdeeds. So attacking people calling for truth and calling out hate, with "cancel culture" claims felt so "right" for them.
Rich: Except for tossing in your usual Democrat talking points, needless name-calling and unnecessary pejoratives, THIS is the type of responsive post that actually furthers the conversation.
I agree. Those people were also canceled. It always goes both ways. I'll never back off that point.... because it is an undeniable truth. My reply is.....
Have those people submitted their names to the site? Doubtful, but I say... why not? Someone (you perhaps?) should propose their cases for consideration. The response (if any) will tell us a lot about the site, IMO.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 24, 2021, 08:07:59 AM
Rich: Except for tossing in your usual Democrat talking points, needless name-calling and unnecessary pejoratives, THIS is the type of responsive post that actually furthers the conversation.
I agree. Those people were also canceled. It always goes both ways. I'll never back off that point.... because it is an undeniable truth. My reply is.....
Have those people submitted their names to the site? Doubtful, but I say... why not? Someone (you perhaps?) should propose their cases for consideration. The response (if any) will tell us a lot about the site, IMO.
Bob
Bob,
One thing I am extremely mindful of is "framing". Framing is everything in political discussion and the right-wing are masters of framing that is not conducive to good and productive debate, but rather to frame issues in a manner that benefits their agenda.
You are trying to frame me calling out these ideological framing as being insulting and not "allowing for good conversation". Only the conversation is built on the false frame of "cancel culture". It's little different than the right's effort to ignore racial inequalities and issues by hyper-focusing on obscure ideas like "critical race theory"
Rather you would have been non-partisan and non-ideologue and talked about false messaging, hate messaging, their role in the attacks on our nation's capital, the accountability of a President that tells lies that harm our nation and caused the attacks, the role of social media both in stopping harmful actions, as well as their role in acting as the new age town square. Where do you strike the balance between freedom and accountability?
You just pushed right-wing propaganda framing of issues and then lashed out because my response was "I will have none of this"
If you truly want a productive conversation you need to drop the ideological framing that is essentially propaganda and discuss the foundational issues I brought up in a fair and non-biased manner. What this thread is equivalent to saying Derek Chauvin went to jail for doing his job. How many more police officers are going to be jailed for just doing their job? All the while ignoring what got him jailed. That is exactly what the fake "cancel culture" claims are like
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
One thing I am extremely mindful of is "framing". Framing is everything in political discussion and the right-wing are masters of framing that is not conducive to good and productive debate, but rather to frame issues in a manner that benefits their agenda.
Don't confuse my thoughts/views with the contents of the article reproduced in the original post. I did not write the article. It was included because it provides some information about the database.
My point (i.e., this thread) is about free speech, which hopefully was clearly stated: McCarthyism was bad, and the so-called "cancel culture" is just as bad (
no matter who is being canceled).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
You are trying to frame me calling out these ideological framing as being insulting and not "allowing for good conversation". Only the conversation is built on the false frame of "cancel culture". It's little different than the right's effort to ignore racial inequalities and issues by hyper-focusing on obscure ideas like "critical race theory"
My reply was an attempt to point out that IMO it's better to respond to a post with a constructive ideas (which IMO you did) without including talking points and matters unrelated to the topic (which you also did).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
Rather you would have been non-partisan and non-ideologue and talked about false messaging, hate messaging, their role in the attacks on our nation's capital, the accountability of a President that tells lies that harm our nation and caused the attacks, the role of social media both in stopping harmful actions, as well as their role in acting as the new age town square. Where do you strike the balance between freedom and accountability?
This thread is not about those topics. IMO, you are attempting to drag your "favorite" issues into a discussion about something else, rather than sticking to the subject of free speech.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
You just pushed right-wing propaganda framing of issues and then lashed out because my response was "I will have none of this"
I disagree, although I do see your point. I will address it. First, don't confuse the database with the opinion piece that was written ABOUT the database. The writer of the article obviously is coming at the issue from a "slant" but the slant does not change the fact that people are being "silenced" and denied the Constitutional right to freely express their views in a public forum. Second, it is an open question (to me) whether the database is being compiled scientifically by fair-minded individuals who would gladly include the group of people you mentioned in their database if their "cases" meet the criteria for inclusion - or - whether the database is just some nut willy-nilly highlighting what happened to a bunch of people he likes because he and his girlfriend have nothing better to do with their time.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
If you truly want a productive conversation you need to drop the ideological framing that is essentially propaganda and discuss the foundational issues I brought up in a fair and non-biased manner. What this thread is equivalent to saying Derek Chauvin went to jail for doing his job. How many more police officers are going to be jailed for just doing their job? All the while ignoring what got him jailed. That is exactly what the fake "cancel culture" claims are like.
I agree that the term "cancel culture" itself is term used by one political party more than the other. However, the thought behind creation of the database is not a false frame. Free speech means free for ALL PEOPLE.
As for your example, it is quite possible the operator of the database is coming at it from a "slant." The means of discovering the truth is to submit names (such as those you mentioned) and gauge the reaction.
Bob
Bob,
Cancel culture is nothing more but a false framing device used by the right to defend the undefendable. When President Donald Trump lied and declared that the election was stolen from him he essentially engaged in the classic yelling "fire" in a crowded movie house. He told just as dangerous a lie (which was amplified by social media and the right-wing propaganda machine) and there were just as damaging consequences.
If there was an honestly framed debate it would be about freedom of speech, spreading false information, accountability, and consequences. However, since most people agree that free speech does not allow one to yell fire in a crowded movie house the right-wing propaganda machine deployed the false framing of "cancel culture" that focused on consequences to those pushing the false dangerous claims while ignoring why the consequences to the nation of those false claims. It allows the right to defend the unethical and immoral actions of one of their political heroes. Of course, it's more than just hero worship. If they really took a cold hard look at the issue they would realize their own culpability in the terrible events that transpired. That is why this false framing is so readily adopted by so many.
Of course, the other aspect of this issue is slightly less cut and dry (but not by much) and that involves hate speech. We have seen people being attacked (like Asians) as a result of hate speech associated with Covid. So hate speech has even resulted in people being killed. So the question of how much does free speech allows one to spread hatred for others is another complex issue. One that can not be explored through the false frame of "cancel culture"
I think this is a great idea and would be interested to see the results. I brought up the story about Critical race Theory last week and the math teacher who wrote an article about it. He was fired less than a week later. The school said he distorted their words but he has now released a tape with the principle agreeing with him. Let the cases speak for themselves I would love to see it.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 24, 2021, 01:09:47 PM
I think this is a great idea and would be interested to see the results. I brought up the story about Critical race Theory last week and the math teacher who wrote an article about it. He was fired less than a week later. The school said he distorted their words but he has now released a tape with the principle agreeing with him. Let the cases speak for themselves I would love to see it.
He got fired for misrepresenting things. Typical right-wing behavior. I am sure the tape doesn't support the math teacher's false claims, but that doesn't stop the right-wing propaganda machine from pretending it does. It will play because it plays to the fundamental false belief of the right, that they are all victims (which is ironic when you consider how many Americans they dislike/hate/harm). This is a perfect example. The hate-filled right describes the school as "woke" and talk about their anti-American concept of "wokism" (which is hatred for Americans who believe in equality and respect for all), yet they portray themselves as the victims (while peddling their hate)
Look at these titles
Biden Administration Prioritizes "Wokeism," Critical Race Theory In Schools
https://fee.org/articles/biden-administration-prioritizes-wokeism-critical-race-theory-in-schools/
Why the right is creating this false framing and focus is to direct attention away from REAL ISSUES like this
Here is how police treat INNOCENT brown-skinned soldiers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOZwRBXfFmU
This is what we should be focusing on as Americans, but the right-wing propaganda machine has people focusing on nonsense like "critical race theory"
It's just another example of the power of false framing that the right routinely employs. It's a lot easier for parents to be hostile and oppose teaching that all men (and women) were created equal, if they reframe it as a scary concept that kids are being indoctrinated into a scary "critical race theory" rather than saying, I don't like my white kids learning that everyone is equal and should all be treated with respect.
False framing has been around for a long time but the practitioners are becoming more skilled and the right-wing propaganda machine more power the damage it's inflicting on our nation more devastating
The tape absolutely confirms what he said. Instead of getting angry just listen to the tape. The principle agreed it makes these kids feel bad about themselves. You always get angry at anything you don't agree with and criticize the messenger. There may be a million cases that support your position but that doesn't make this case wrong. Just listen to the tape it is undeniable. Do you have kids? Would you want your kids to feel bad about something they had no part in, I certainly don't.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 24, 2021, 03:00:53 PM
The tape absolutely confirms what he said. Instead of getting angry just listen to the tape. The principle agreed it makes these kids feel bad about themselves. You always get angry at anything you don't agree with and criticize the messenger. There may be a million cases that support your position but that doesn't make this case wrong. Just listen to the tape it is undeniable. Do you have kids? Would you want your kids to feel bad about something they had no part in, I certainly don't.
I tend not to argue with people I am firing. This secret onesided recording will only convince those that are conditioned to believe. Still I am will to listen to the entire tape if you provide it
Unfortunately I am technically deficient and don't know how to put it on here. I am sure you can get it on youtube. BTW the guy was a math teacher at the school for 20 years. You would think he would be the least likely person to be involved in this. If you can't get it on youtube I will try to get help from my son when he is over to move it to this site. I really don't want to argue but rather to understand what is going on and why. The Virginia math change in the high school curriculum is another example that has me confused. I want everyone to get the best education possible and to see all races succeed and do well. I don't think this can be accomplished by demonizing any group or by lowering standards.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 24, 2021, 03:51:32 PM
Unfortunately I am technically deficient and don't know how to put it on here. I am sure you can get it on youtube. BTW the guy was a math teacher at the school for 20 years. You would think he would be the least likely person to be involved in this. If you can't get it on youtube I will try to get help from my son when he is over to move it to this site. I really don't want to argue but rather to understand what is going on and why. The Virginia math change in the high school curriculum is another example that has me confused. I want everyone to get the best education possible and to see all races succeed and do well. I don't think this can be accomplished by demonizing any group or by lowering standards.
FL: A suggestion.... if you post here the words you searched for in order to find the video, that should be enough for any of us to also find it. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
Cancel culture is nothing more but a false framing device used by the right to defend the undefendable.
MG,
I don't agree with this point. Cancel culture very clearly exists, and it can easily be attributed to both sides of the spectrum (as you yourself illustrated in your first post with your list). It is a by-product of our hyper-sensitive, overly politically correct present-day society. I feel it is also harmful as it devalues actual real examples of racism, sexism, etc that actually should be condemned. When you're constantly crying wolf all the time about anything even mildly controversial, like a Dr. Seuss book that was written many decades ago, you make it that much harder for actual real cases to be taken as seriously as they should be. So not only is it excessive to the point of absurdity, but much more importantly it is doing actual harm.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 25, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
MG,
I don't agree with this point. Cancel culture very clearly exists, and it can easily be attributed to both sides of the spectrum (as you yourself illustrated in your first post with your list). It is a by-product of our hyper-sensitive, overly politically correct present-day society. I feel it is also harmful as it devalues actual real examples of racism, sexism, etc that actually should be condemned. When you're constantly crying wolf all the time about anything even mildly controversial, like a Dr. Seuss book that was written many decades ago, you make it that much harder for actual real cases to be taken as seriously as they should be. So not only is it excessive to the point of absurdity, but much more importantly it is doing actual harm.
The fake Dr. Seuss controversy actually proves my point, 100%. There were no protests or boycotts or calls to take the books off the shelves or government regulators demanding the books be removed. The publishers knew the racist imagines in some of their obscure books and took it upon themselves (exercising their own individual rights) to cease publishing them. Yet the right-wing propaganda machine twisted and distorted the event to drum up more American harming hate and outrage by pretending that this was yet another example of the PC police robbing people of their precious childhoods. The right-wing hate/propaganda network is destroying our nation. They took a simple act of thinking maybe portraying Africans as savages with bones in their noses is a bad thing and used it to push their agenda of hatred. The harm these fake manufactured controversies are inflicting on our nation can not be easily undone.
The author of the story was Leah Barkoukis, the story has audio files in it that confirm the quotes in the story. The Teacher is Paul Rossi and the head of the school is George Davidson. As for Doctor Seuss I don't understand your point as I agree that there was no outcry for their removal, yet a few elites decide this is racist. I don't find Doctor Seuss racist at all and I have read many to my grandkids. Your dislike of anything you disagree with makes you angry and you always seem to say the other side is worse. I think Bob said it right bad things happen all around and to say it is just one side is naive at best.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 25, 2021, 08:21:57 AM
As for Doctor Seuss I don't understand your point as I agree that there was no outcry for their removal, yet a few elites decide this is racist.
I can tell when someone has consumed too much hate-inducing propaganda (and this is true for both the right and the left) they use the term "elites". No terms bothers all my values more than the use of the term "elites" as a pejorative. It runs contrary to my values of expertise, valuing intelligence, education, and achievement, of not putting hate-filled labels on fellow Americans, of intellectual rigor (over laziness) more than when people use the term "elites". This is just more proof of the destruction I am seeing of America and our values. This is why our nation is in a decline and is no longer leading. When our nation was showing greatness (and even then there were plenty of warts) we treated men like Albert Einstien as a rock star. Today he would be dismissed as just another elite
As for your comments about what is not racist, I am not sure these racist stereotypes are good for a child's development
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced_737px_wide/s3/2021-03/African%20caricature-Seuss.png?itok=j9uN7U_P)
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/892x501/s3/2021-03/Dr%20Seuss%20-main.png?itok=526bWINM)
NOTE- in earlier editions the Asian man was yellow
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced_737px_wide/s3/2021-03/Asian%20caricature-Seuss.png?itok=S7n6Fitb)
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 25, 2021, 08:21:57 AM
The author of the story was Leah Barkoukis, the story has audio files in it that confirm the quotes in the story. The Teacher is Paul Rossi and the head of the school is George Davidson. As for Doctor Seuss I don't understand your point as I agree that there was no outcry for their removal, yet a few elites decide this is racist. I don't find Doctor Seuss racist at all and I have read many to my grandkids. Your dislike of anything you disagree with makes you angry and you always seem to say the other side is worse. I think Bob said it right bad things happen all around and to say it is just one side is naive at best.
I found the video and I think that anyone that has not been negatively impacted by right-wing propaganda would immediately take note that it's Paul Rossi with all the hate speech and the principal is being prodded by Paul Rossi to agree with his exaggerated views (plus why isn't the entire video being played). It's also clear that Paul Rossi is a snake who secretly recorded the conversation and how he is speaking makes it's clear he is playing that secret to push his anti-equality agenda.
Frankly, it was good that Paul Rossi was fired. We should have men like him who are fundamentally opposed to equality and fairness teaching our youth (plus we teachers should be of higher character). Not that anyone infected by the right-wing propaganda machine will see it that way. They will see the carefully selected audio CLIPS as proof that their false beliefs created by the right-wing propaganda machine are correct
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2021/04/24/what-school-principal-admits-theyre-doing-to-white-people-n2588376
Oh and "Townhall.com" is perhaps one of the worst in terms of pushing right-wing propaganda and hate. They pushed so many lies and encouraged the attacks of January 6th. Townhall.com is not contained by fact or reason or conscience in the pursuit of their far far right agenda. They push hate, fear, and anger like few sites on the web
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 08:38:12 AM
I can tell when someone has consumed too much hate-inducing propaganda (and this is true for both the right and the left) they use the term "elites". No terms bothers all my values more than the use of the term "elites" as a pejorative. It runs contrary to my values of expertise, valuing intelligence and achievement, of not putting hate-filled labels on fellow Americans, of intellectual rigor (over laziness) more than when people use the term "elites".
Rich: I agree. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 08:38:12 AM
As for your comments about what is not racist, I am not sure these racist stereotypes are good for a child's development
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced_737px_wide/s3/2021-03/African%20caricature-Seuss.png?itok=j9uN7U_P)
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/892x501/s3/2021-03/Dr%20Seuss%20-main.png?itok=526bWINM)
NOTE- in earlier editions the Asian man was yellow
(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced_737px_wide/s3/2021-03/Asian%20caricature-Seuss.png?itok=S7n6Fitb)
You can take one of two basic views on this broad topic. One stance would be that it is in society's best interest to white-wash history and cancel as many objectionable books, images, statues, and even human beings as possible so that people see the remnants of past racism and inequality as little as possible and live in a sort of blissful ignorance about the past. That is certainly one approach, and it seems to be the approach that many in modern society currently subscribe to.
Another approach would be to use an honest discussion and representation of the past as a way of educating about the way things used to be and the progress that has been made since. And then tie that into the present-day and talk about how hopefully 50-100 years from now there will be much more progress and things will be far better than they are now.
I prefer the latter approach myself. I think denying history is (1) close to impossible as you can't possibly cancel everything you don't like, and (2) simply not the best way to educate people. I have always believed in understanding the past and studying past wrongs, so that we don't repeat them. Living in denial of the past and trying to forget everything is not in the best interest of present or future societies. So if a kid sees an image from an old book that is objectionable from a 2021 perspective but perhaps less so in 1937, depending on the age of the kid, I see this more as an opportunity for education than something to panic about and just white-wash. Historical context matters.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 25, 2021, 09:02:47 AM
You can take one of two basic views on this broad topic. One stance would be that it is in society's best interest to white-wash history and cancel as many objectionable books, images, statues, and even human beings as possible so that people see the remnants of past racism and inequality as little as possible and live in a sort of blissful ignorance about the past. That is certainly one approach, and it seems to be the approach that many in modern society currently subscribe to.
Another approach would be to use an honest discussion and representation of the past as a way of educating about the way things used to be and the progress that has been made since. And then tie that into the present-day and talk about how hopefully 50-100 years from now there will be much more progress and things will be far better than they are now.
I prefer the latter approach myself. I think denying history is (1) close to impossible as you can't possibly cancel everything you don't like, and (2) simply not the best way to educate people. I have always believed in understanding the past and studying past wrongs, so that we don't repeat them. Living in denial of the past and trying to forget everything is not in the best interest of present or future societies. So if a kid sees an image from an old book that is objectionable from a 2021 perspective but perhaps less so in 1937, depending on the age of the kid, I see this more as an opportunity for education than something to panic about and just white-wash. Historical context matters.
We don't teach kids in kindergarten about sexual intercourse because their young minds are not yet ready to comprehend and understand what you are trying to teach. Yet you are advocating ingrain racial stereotypes into young minds with the use of otherwise nice children's books. What exactly is the benefit??????? It would be different to have this discussion with HS students where you should pictures like that to them while discussing the evolution of race relations and racism. HS students (or better yet college) would be better able to understand and appreciate the lessons and the messages.
I am truly baffled at your assertion that 3rd graders should be given these images (they could get these books in their school libraries) with no guidance or explanation. We have some serious race issues in our nation. You seem to be insistent that we shouldn't change a thing. So how do we improve the problems of racism? Seems to me we need to change something if we want things to get better.
I see the whole "it's part of history" claim the right's repackaged for better appeal of the classic "we always did it that way" argument
Rich the man was a math teacher at the school for 20 years with no issues. They make teachers sign pledges to agree with their vision. The reason he asked him repeatedly was obvious, the principle didn't want to admit it and tried to dance around the question until forced to admit it. As for the site I didn't ask you to believe the story only to listen to the tape. If you can't admit the tape proves the principle agreed with him it's because you don't want to. You say he should be fired, why, because he disagrees. As a parent at another elite school facing the same issue stated," I want teachers to teach my child how to think not what to think". This isn't China we are allowed to disagree.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 25, 2021, 09:22:52 AM
Rich the man was a math teacher at the school for 20 years with no issues. They make teachers sign pledges to agree with their vision. The reason he asked him repeatedly was obvious, the principle didn't want to admit it and tried to dance around the question until forced to admit it. As for the site I didn't ask you to believe the story only to listen to the tape. If you can't admit the tape proves the principle agreed with him it's because you don't want to. You say he should be fired, why, because he disagrees. As a parent at another elite school facing the same issue stated," I want teachers to teach my child how to think not what to think". This isn't China we are allowed to disagree.
Since he was a math teacher, how exactly did he learn (in detail) what was being taught in other classes?????? Look, don't surrender your critical thinking skills and what should be natural cynicism (this teacher of young minds called teaching that everyone is equal "demonizing kids for being born white"). He heard second hand that they were teaching racial equality and Paul was so consumed by right-wing hatred and propaganda, he flew off the handle and tried to destroy the school he works for.
Just really really think about this. As a math teacher he had no more access to what was being taught in this other department than you or I would
Rich, you are getting off track. The principle agreed with him, period. Your question of how would he know is absurd, teachers talk and being asked to sign a ledge of loyalty to this doctrine is proof. If you view everything though a lens of racism that's all you'll see. I repeat I would not want my kids to be taught that they are bad for something they weren't involved in. We need to look forward not backward. BTW look at Virginia's change to the math curriculum and you will see how this doctrine permeates everything.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 25, 2021, 09:44:38 AM
Rich, you are getting off track. The principle agreed with him, period. Your question of how would he know is absurd, teachers talk and being asked to sign a ledge of loyalty to this doctrine is proof. If you view everything though a lens of racism that's all you'll see. I repeat I would not want my kids to be taught that they are bad for something they weren't involved in. We need to look forward not backward. BTW look at Virginia's change to the math curriculum and you will see how this doctrine permeates everything.
No, the principal didn't "agree" he was badgered by someone with extremist views and opted not to argue with the person (if I was the principal I would have taken the same approach including firing the guy). As principal you don't want to get into arguments with staff, especially radicals over sensitive topics like racial equality) I don't see how anyone can a reasonable person can listen to those clips and come away thinking the principal actually agreed, unless they WANTED to believe because of prior conditioning by listening to way too much right-wing propaganda
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 09:10:18 AM
We don't teach kids in kindergarten about sexual intercourse because their young minds are not yet ready to comprehend and understand what you are trying to teach. Yet you are advocating ingrain racial stereotypes into young minds with the use of otherwise nice children's books. What exactly is the benefit??????? It would be different to have this discussion with HS students where you should pictures like that to them while discussing the evolution of race relations and racism. HS students (or better yet college) would be better able to understand and appreciate the lessons and the messages.
I am truly baffled at your assertion that 3rd graders should be given these images (they could get these books in their school libraries) with no guidance or explanation. We have some serious race issues in our nation. You seem to be insistent that we shouldn't change a thing. So how do we improve the problems of racism? Seems to me we need to change something if we want things to get better.
I see the whole "it's part of history" claim the right's repackaged for better appeal of the classic "we always did it that way" argument
Nowhere did I suggest that we "not change a thing." Not sure where you got that idea. Maybe you think that because I am less desperately obsessed with trying to rewrite the past than I am to want to change the present and future.
My point is that the general practice of white-washing or cancelling things from the past, just because they don't suit today's values, is not an effective form of education or means to affect real change. Should we pretend Thomas Jefferson did not own hundreds of slaves? Should we leave that part out in history books, or should we actually start teaching American kids that Thomas Jefferson was a terrible human being? Why is his face even on our currency, if we are going to start equating modern values to past ones? As you can see, this obsession with re-writing or cancelling the past can become an endless and ultimately fruitless pusuit.
I think the past should be an open book. The only way societies progress is by understanding the past, coming to grips with it, and not being doomed to repeat the failures of it. If you want to make certain books only allowed to be read by certain age groups, that is one thing, but just throwing anything and everything into the book burning bonfire that isn't precisely aligned with today's current values is a big mistake. Over the course of history, the book burning crowd has not been the one that has aged well.
This topic is very close to home for me.
My wife is the secretary for Athletic Director for the Binghamton City School District and as such has to attend and "control" many of the larger athletic events - Football, Basketball etc. She gets an extra $45 for spending 3 - 4 hours at each event. She also has to schedule the workers for the events to include security - off duty police in uniform (with the blessing of the BPD) who get $120 per event.
Within the last 10 days one local elementary school made a book named the "book of the month" titled, "Something Happened in Our Town" in an attempt to talk about social justice.
It is a blatant anti police book, so much so the school district had to issue an apology (link below). As a result of this action - no police officer will work a single event at this school district. For the last 3 years these officers have protected my wife from the "trash" that has showed up at the events.
Since this has happened - I have gone to both the football games she has worked, and had to take my 12 year old granddaughter, whom we just got custody of, in order to ensure her (wife's) safety. There have been a couple of instances at both games where I am so glad I was there. 2 middle aged woman would not have been able to handle. I am not a tough guy, but I will protect those I love. The worst part is that my very fragile (emotionally) granddaughter had to see this - she is in our custody through a Juvenile Court in Texas with very strict conditions.
The pendulum swings both ways, if a 3rd grader can't be exposed to Dr Suess, why should they be expected to be able to understand the social justice principle.
https://wnbf.com/binghamton-school-book-controversy-receives-national-attention/
The schools apology:
"The Binghamton City School District released a statement apologizing for "the negative light this has shined" on the law enforcement profession."
The number of issues raised by the seemingly "simple" Dr. Seuss situation are mind-boggling!!! I believe a doctoral thesis could be written about it. And probably someone will. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 25, 2021, 09:50:51 AM
Nowhere did I suggest that we "not change a thing." Not sure where you got that idea.
I got that idea with your outrage over an independent company deciding it wanted to remove children's books with offensive racial stereotypes in them. Since you attacked the publishers over the removal, I think it's reasonable to assume you want to continue to expose young minds to such imagines. I applaud the publishers for doing what was essentially a common-sense move to address changing times and norms.
If the right-wing propaganda machine existed in the 60s and the 70s no doubt there would have been right-wingers protesting in front of homes whose owners removed their black lawn jockeys from their homes.
Just as with the fake cancel culture outrage, the "whitewash history" outrage is equally grounded in hypocrisy. I mean how many Americans were taught about or sees memorials dedicated to the Tulsa race massacre? We are already seeing the right-wing propaganda machine whitewash over the events of January 6th 2021. How hard has the right-wing propaganda machine worked to preserve the wrongs our nation has inflicted on the native American populations?
It seems like the only times the right-wing propaganda machine cares about preserving history is if it honors racist who attacked and kills Americans to preserve slavery or it perpetuates racism and bigotry through stereotyping and the like
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 09:59:26 AM
It is a blatant anti police book,
Did you read the book or are you repeating (without critical review) the opinions of others and trying to pass that opinion off as fact?
Rich I will stop because if you don't believe what you hear then what can I say. The idea that the guy that was fired was badgering the principle is laughable and if the situation was reversed you would be screaming for the principles head. On a side note I appreciate your football contributions to the site.
Quote from: FL GMAN on April 25, 2021, 10:14:02 AM
Rich I will stop because if you don't believe what you hear then what can I say. The idea that the guy that was fired was badgering the principle is laughable and if the situation was reversed you would be screaming for the principles head. On a side note I appreciate your football contributions to the site.
I am sorry that you were unwilling to listen to what I had to say. Maybe if I could get a blog on TownHall.com... :D
Seriously, no hard feelings. We may not agree but that doesn't preclude respecting one another.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 10:12:51 AM
Did you read the book or are you repeating (without critical review) the opinions of others and trying to pass that opinion off as fact?
1) Why would you even question this? Of course I listened to it
2) The statement from the school district says it all "The Binghamton City School District released a statement apologizing for "
the negative light this has shined" on the law enforcement profession." I think that proves it as a fact. The BCSD is about as far as you can get from a "right wing" ideology.
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 10:34:39 AM
1) Why would you even question this? Of course I listened to it
2) The statement from the school district says it all "The Binghamton City School District released a statement apologizing for "the negative light this has shined" on the law enforcement profession." I think that proves it as a fact. The BCSD is about as far as you can get from a "right wing" ideology.
I do appreciate you adding another example of the right-wing canceling something they don't agree with. It's sad how the right-wing (thanks to the propaganda network) is so outraged and up in arms about the so called cancel culture but as soon as there is something they don't agree with, they violently cancel it.
I have said before, consistency of views is more important (in my opinion) than the views themselves. You can't be out with torches and pitchforks ready to hunt down those liberal elites you claim are canceling everything they don't agree with, and then turn around and engage in the exact same behavior you accuse and vilify others for.
Well I had a chance to listen to the book (we all can)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whR_JIzknpo
It's sort of disturbing for people to listen to that story and come away angry that the book was "blatantly anti-police". To hold that view one would have to ignore the FACT that a police officer was found guilty of murdering a man while 4 or 5 other police officers stood by and did nothing while the public pleaded for his life. To hold that view one would have to pretend that video of officers drawing guns on a brown-skinned soldier who was completely innocent of wrongdoing didn't happen. We would have to ignore the number of police officers who donated to Rittenhouse's defense fund (the guy brought a military-style weapon to a black lives matter protest and shot and killed multi-unarmed protestors. One a LT who was in charge of internal affairs (of all divisions) sent along a note of encouragement along with his check.
If the police directed more of their anger and energy toward the bad apples that are making them look bad as they did about canceling this book and the message it contained, maybe the book could be consigned to the dustbins of history. Of course some would want it to read long even if we get rid of the racist bad apples in the police force because we can't white wash history and all that...
Mighty,
To be honest I read the first couple lines of your reply and just gazed over the rest of it.
I gave you a first hand account of this book and it's affect - yet you try to justify it, because it fits your political agenda.
I have sat through the last 2 zoom meetings with the school board since this "controversy" has erupted. The Superintendent, School Board president and 2 other members of the board are so far left, they make you, AOC and the the rest of the "squad" look like fanatical right wingers.
The 4 mentioned acknowledged how it could be perceived, with out stating the out right fact, and that is wrong. The other fact is the 300 (?) member police force is in a 90% agreement and took offense to it and will never work another sporting event for the district.
If the shoe was on the other foot, you would be beating the drum as to how wrong it was. That is not an opinion on my part, but a fact based on many years of your postings.
As usual, you missed the main point of my original post. You stated that it was not appropriate for 3rd graders to be in discussions about sex or be exposed to Dr Suess with it's racial stereotypes, I gave you a real life example of the exact same concept with this book. Because it fits your narrative, you defend it.
I will try not to respond, because it will go south.
Take a look in the mirror my friend - The next game, if I get in a fight or confrontation with an a$$hole to protect my wife, because the police are not there - I will think how right you are. /sarcasm/
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 11:48:51 AM
Mighty,
To be honest I read the first couple lines of your reply and just gazed over the rest of it.
I gave you a first hand account of this book and it's affect - yet you try to justify it, because it fits your political agenda.
I have sat through the last 2 zoom meetings with the school board since this "controversy" has erupted. The Superintendent, School Board president and 2 other members of the board are so far left, they make you, AOC and the the rest of the "squad" look like fanatical right wingers.
The 4 mentioned acknowledged how it could be perceived, with out stating the out right fact, and that is wrong. The other fact is the 300 (?) member police force is in a 90% agreement and took offense to it and will never work another sporting event for the district.
If the shoe was on the other foot, you would be beating the drum as to how wrong it was. That is not an opinion on my part, but a fact based on many years of your postings.
As usual, you missed the main point of my original post. You stated that it was not appropriate for 3rd graders to be in discussions about sex or be exposed to Dr Suess with it's racial stereotypes, I gave you a real life example of the exact same concept with this book. Because it fits your narrative, you defend it.
I will try not to respond, because it will go south.
Take a look in the mirror my friend - The next game, if I get in a fight or confrontation with an a$$hole to protect my wife, because the police are not there - I will think how right you are. /sarcasm/
I listened to the book being read. As I said, I appreciate you sharing the story because it's a classic example of the right-wing being guilty of do as I say not as I do politics. There was nothing, in my opinion, anti-police in that book. The book addressed the issue in the news and the issues that people are talking about now. It told the story from the vantage point of a white family and a black family. Of course, the book is but a jumping-off point to discussions to have with young kids who are hearing about these issues on TV, and from older siblings or even overhearing their parents talking.
It's sort of amazing the double standards at play that the same adults angry that a private company decided to stop exposing children to racial stereotypes would be angry that children would be read a story that does an excellent job addressing a difficult issue. If I didn't know better I would think that those on the right don't want kids to be raised free of prejudices or bigotry (or at least less so). Hardly an isolated incident as we saw the angry radical math teacher making the rounds on the right-wing propaganda network demonizing his employer for teaching racial equality and daring to talk about racism.
The world is a scary place for kids and they are trying to understand why sometimes the police behave like this toward 100% innocent men
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1fw3gu.img?h=1080&w=1920&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f)
While behaving this way with 100% guilty criminals
(https://heavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Screen-Shot-2021-01-06-at-3.14.32-PM-1-e1609968118719.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=780)
One last reply - you always bring up left and right to justify your ideology ( I don't even read it), I gave you a personal example of reality of it.
Background - 3 weeks ago tomorrow, my wife and I were in Richmond (7 hour drive) visiting my daughter and her fianc
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 01:03:08 PM
I am giving you a personal account of how it has affected 3 people directly, let alone the 100 or so spectators at the events and yet you are probably going to continually post your agenda about how worse the right is or it is a right wing propaganda machine .
Get over yourself and look at reality.
There is a lot of ironies, that are clearly lost on you, with your rude and disrespectful remarks. Here is the thing, I have had many black friends over the years. I have my personal experience where a black friend and a fellow volunteer were stopped by police for the crime of "walking while black". I had many friends among the guys I worked with at the inner-city hospital and they felt comfortable enough to share their views on race. They all had way too many stories of being pulled over while black and they all knew how they had to behave to try and prevent being shot. So you are hardly the only one with personal stories.
I should be angry with you, I really should because you had no right to speak to me that way, but anger and hatred are only making things worse. I know what has you so ginned up that you would violently lash out at me, I am not going to make it worse by reacting the same way.
I will only patiently and respectfully ask you to try and maintain consistency in your views. I will ask you to consider why you felt the story was anti-police. Really ask why. Did the book invent something that didn't exist?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 01:38:17 PM
There is a lot of ironies, that are clearly lost on you, with your rude and disrespectful remarks. Here is the thing, I have had many black friends over the years. I have my personal experience where a black friend and a fellow volunteer were stopped by police for the crime of "walking while black". I had many friends among the guys I worked with at the inner-city hospital and they felt comfortable enough to share their views on race. They all had way too many stories of being pulled over while black and they all knew how they had to behave to try and prevent being shot. So you are hardly the only one with personal stories.
I should be angry with you, I really should because you had no right to speak to me that way, but anger and hatred are only making things worse. I know what has you so ginned up that you would violently lash out at me, I am not going to make it worse by reacting the same way.
I will only patiently and respectfully ask you to try and maintain consistency in your views. I will ask you to consider why you felt the story was anti-police. Really ask why. Did the book invent something that didn't exist?
~X(
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 01:47:55 PM
~X(
I am not going to meet your anger and rage with more anger and rage. That is exactly what the right wing propaganda network wants, every one angry and at each other's throats. If we are going to end the cycle of anger, hate, and division people need to say "enough"
I have no anger or hatred toward you because you don't agree with me. I have only respect as a fellow Giants fan and another member of my BBH family. :cheers:
The reality of it is the book (which the School District has apologized for) has put my wife and granddaughter in harms way.
That is all that matters to me
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 02:00:44 PM
The reality of it is the book (which the School District has apologized for) has put my wife and granddaughter in harms way.
That is all that matters to me
The book preached peace, tolerance, respect, and inclusion. What part, specifically, inspired people to threaten your family?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 02:13:50 PM
The book preached peace, tolerance, respect, and inclusion. What part, specifically, inspired people to threaten your family?
Rich: I can't answer your question, but maybe it was MAINLY the fact that the book "preached" at all. This isn't about religion... at least, I don't view political matters as religion. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 02:13:50 PM
The book preached peace, tolerance, respect, and inclusion. What part, specifically, inspired people to threaten your family?
I am completely amazed at how tone deaf you are. The school district has apologized for it, saying it put the police in a bad light, the BPD will not work with district because of it. And yet you still want to argue it is OK
The book caused the off duty police officers to not work the games (which I mentioned in my initial post - and you ignored), which means no security - they used to have my wife's back - but they are not there - so the same a$$holes that show up that they (BPD) used to deal with, I have to. What is so difficult to understand?
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2021, 02:30:57 PM
Rich: I can't answer your question, but maybe it was MAINLY the fact that the book "preached" at all. This isn't about religion... at least, I don't view political matters as religion. Bob
Bob,
I think you are making a lot about a word I used. The video is there for all to see. I am looking for a quote (preferably in context). Beyond that teaching(a better term than preaching) children is a responsibility
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 02:31:32 PM
I am completely amazed at how tone deaf you are. The school district has apologized for it, saying it put the police in a bad light, the BPD will not work with district because of it. And yet you still want to argue it is OK
The book caused the off duty police officers to not work the games (which I mentioned in my initial post - and you ignored), which means no security - they used to have my wife's back - but they are not there - so the same a$$holes that show up that they (BPD) used to deal with, I have to. What is so difficult to understand?
You keep leaning on the apology of a political entity instead of the sound proof of specific words.
I also find it interesting that you gave the police who violated their oaths to serve and protect a free pass. I don't share your view that a children's book excuses the disgraceful behavior of the police, who would be better off acting in a manner that deserves respect rather than harming citizens while demanding it
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 02:39:13 PM
I also find it interesting that you gave the police who violated their oaths to serve and protect a free pass. I don't share your view that a children's book excuses the disgraceful behavior of the police, who would be better off acting in a manner that deserves respect rather than harming citizens while demanding it
Again you failed to read what I posted - they do their duty every day - the security gig is an off duty job for them, the made an extra $120 per game for their
OFF DUTY security at the games with the blessing of the BPD. They can choose to work or not work these games. It is off the clock. So no - they did not violate their oaths, they just chose not to work on their own time for a school district that they feel disrespected them.
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
Again you failed to read what I posted - they do their duty every day - the security gig is an off duty job for them, the made an extra $120 per game for their OFF DUTY security at the games with the blessing of the BPD. They can choose to work or not work these games. It is off the clock. So no - they did not violate their oaths, they just chose not to work on their own time for a school district that they feel disrespected them.
Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I didn't understand you. I consider protecting the public their duty regardless if they get paid extra to do it. You seem to forget that I showed up for duty at the squad shift after shift regardless of the fact I wasn't paid. I did that out of a sense of duty to guard the public a value clearly not shared by the officers who endangered your family
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 03:14:40 PM
Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I didn't understand you. I consider protecting the public their duty regardless if they get paid extra to do it. You seem to forget that I showed up for duty at the squad shift after shift regardless of the fact I wasn't paid. I did that out of a sense of duty to guard the public a value clearly not shared by the officers who endangered your family
Sorry Rich, I just spit out a glass of Pappy VanWinkle ($100 a shot) on my computer screen when I read this. You had to turn it into you not off duty police officers who get treated like xxxx all the time.
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 03:23:11 PM
Sorry Rich, I just spit out a glass of Pappy VanWinkle ($100 a shot) on my computer screen when I read this. You had to turn it into you not off duty police officers who get treated like xxxx all the time.
So let me get this straight. A book that teaches children about the challenging topic of racism and policing endangered your family and needs to be canceled forthwith. However, the police who refused to provide security to the citizens attending a football game and actually endangered your family are not only completely innocent but are victims of persecution because people fail to give them the praise they deserve. I was confused until you mentioned that alcohol was involved ;)
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2021, 03:54:39 PM
So let me get this straight. A book that teaches children about the challenging topic of racism and policing endangered your family and needs to be canceled forthwith. However, the police who refused to provide security to the citizens attending a football game and actually endangered your family are not only completely innocent but are victims of persecution because people fail to give them the praise they deserve. I was confused until you mentioned that alcohol was involved ;)
Rich,
I feel very sorry for you, your politics has turned you into a zealot.
I asked you earlier if you had raised a child, you did not answer, so I am assuming (my bad if not correct) that you haven't. It softens the strident positions people have.
Yes I, poured a glass of special bourbon (1st of the day), but for you to assume everything in this alcohol related is bad on you.
You have responded to my posts with "with your rude and disrespectful remarks." I have not been rude or disrespectful in any way.
Here is one thing made made me laugh my ass off "Here is the thing, I have had many black friends over the years. ". What a xxxx*ng thing to say. Sounds like a true racist in the old fashioned way. You don't think anyone else has had "black friends"? Why even bring it up?
You have to twist everything posted to fit your agenda, regardless of the reality of the situation.
Off duty cops have no obligation to get abused at sporting events - they do their job every day on the clock. To make it about you, just shows where you are.
You are more closed minded than the right wing you hate
Quote from: philo43 on April 25, 2021, 04:32:40 PM
Rich,
I feel very sorry for you, your politics has turned you into a zealot.
I asked you earlier if you had raised a child, you did not answer, so I am assuming (my bad if not correct) that you haven't. It softens the strident positions people have.
Yes I, poured a glass of special bourbon (1st of the day), but for you to assume everything in this alcohol related is bad on you.
You have responded to my posts with "with your rude and disrespectful remarks." I have not been rude or disrespectful in any way.
Here is one thing made made me laugh my ass off "Here is the thing, I have had many black friends over the years. ". What a xxxx*ng thing to say. Sounds like a true racist in the old fashioned way. You don't think anyone else has had "black friends"? Why even bring it up?
You have to twist everything posted to fit your agenda, regardless of the reality of the situation.
Off duty cops have no obligation to get abused at sporting events - they do their job every day on the clock. To make it about you, just shows where you are.
You are more closed minded than the right wing you hate
I tried to have a civil, fact-based discussion that was based on logic and reason. What was your response? Well you attacked me on a personal level. Now before you go on another right-wing propaganda fueled rant/personal attack consider
I asked you specifically what about the book was "blatantly anti-cop"
Your response?
QuoteI am giving you a personal account of how it has affected 3 people directly, let alone the 100 or so spectators at the events and yet you are probably going to continually post your agenda about how worse the right is or it is a right wing propaganda machine .
Get over yourself and look at reality.
After you blamed a children's book for "endangering your family" your response when I suggested the police who refused to work and protect your family should shoulder the blame?
QuoteSorry Rich, I just spit out a glass of Pappy VanWinkle ($100 a shot) on my computer screen when I read this.
When I pointed out how you are blaming a book for "endangering your family" while giving the police who refused to protect your family a free pass, your response?
QuoteHere is one thing made made me laugh my ass off
Quoteyour politics has turned you into a zealot.
QuoteYou are more closed minded
Good thing you were "respectful" /sarcasm/ I would hate to see you nasty.
This is the unfortunate side-effect of the right-wing propaganda machine. It has caused so many people to be emotional rather than logical about issues. When a different opinion is produced your go-to move is mockery and an assumption of character flaws that must exist to explain the different viewpoints. They have taught you to hate and ignore people like me. They did that because your positions don't hold up to critical thinking or examination. So they trained you to attack, insult, and then ignore.
It's funny, if I had the time and patience, and we could meet face to face, I might be able to break through the walls you have built. I do know that on a message forum, such a feat can't be accomplished.
So I will just wish you a good day and move on and shake my head and how hostile the right-wing propaganda machine has made their target audience toward their fellow Americans.
You know the Americans who
Quotetwist everything posted to fit your agenda, regardless of the reality of the situation.
Just saw this in our local paper and thought it was appropriate to post on this thread. A store owner has canceled all law enforcement, firefighter and military customers at her store.
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/local/2021/04/26/soiled-doves-rosendale-doesnt-want-police-customers/7350634002/
Rosendale collectibles dealer won't sell to police, firefighters, military
:ROSENDALE
Quote from: philo43 on April 26, 2021, 02:25:26 PM
Just saw this in our local paper and thought it was appropriate to post on this thread. A store owner has canceled all law enforcement, firefighter and military customers at her store.
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/local/2021/04/26/soiled-doves-rosendale-doesnt-want-police-customers/7350634002/
Rosendale collectibles dealer won't sell to police, firefighters, military
:ROSENDALE
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2021, 02:40:08 PM
philo: As much as I dislike the cancel culture and prior restraints (and "chilling effects") on free speech, I figure if a private business owner wants to turn down customers, that's her business.
On the other hand, your post reminded me of the various bakeries and pizza stores that were "canceled" for refusing to provide services to gay couples, etc.
So, IMO, is must be one way or the other. The cancel crowd can't have it both ways.
Bob
Sort of like when landlords got "canceled" when they refused to rent apartments to African Americans
or
Realtors having a separate listing for white people and black people, I remember they got canceled as well
I have to say, if you guys weren't so heavily ingrained with right-wing propanda I think you would be embarrassed by this thread as it doesn't reflect well on today's US conservative ideology
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2021, 02:40:08 PM
philo: As much as I dislike the cancel culture and prior restraints (and "chilling effects") on free speech, I figure if a private business owner wants to turn down customers, that's her business.
On the other hand, your post reminded me of the various bakeries and pizza stores that were "canceled" for refusing to provide services to gay couples, etc.
So, IMO, is must be one way or the other. The cancel crowd can't have it both ways.
Bob
Bob,
I agree with you 100%.
Sometimes what you guys don't say is far more telling than what you do
This Gun Shop Says It Won't Do Business With Biden Voters
https://reason.com/2021/02/12/this-gun-shop-says-it-wont-do-business-with-biden-voters/
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2021, 02:48:06 PM
Sometimes what you guys don't say is far more telling than what you do
This Gun Shop Says It Won't Do Business With Biden Voters
https://reason.com/2021/02/12/this-gun-shop-says-it-wont-do-business-with-biden-voters/
Rich: That's why we have a forum with multiple posters. If I had known of this story I would have included it in my reply. Thanks. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2021, 03:16:51 PM
Rich: That's why we have a forum with multiple posters. If I had known of this story I would have included it in my reply. Thanks. Bob
Bob,
I was aware of things like this for a long time. However, I didn't post it because I wouldn't want to mislead people by only posting this one anecdotal incident. It would create the false impression that when it comes to the world of crazy small-time business owners one side or the other had a monopoly. Anecdotal is the worst evidence to base opinions on, it violates so many principles of critical thinking.
I mean I could have shared about a picture I saw of a home in my town that had a "hate China" sign posted on the front lawn. What I found ironic was that the person who placed it there put it right in front of one of those Virgin Mary shrines that are very common in my town with a high percentage of old-school Italians. However one person doesn't make or dispute a point, at least to sound thinking people,
Bob, I do believe you honestly want to have good productive conversations on these topics, but you always seem to start out from the right-wing propaganda perceptive. This could have been more productive, in my opinion, if you had framed this discussion in terms of free speech, the consequences of free speech, and where lines should be drawn, and by whom. Instead, you used the right-wing propaganda buzzword, "cancel"
Same with your climate change discussion. I mean you literally posted from the NY Post which is a solid part of the right-wing propaganda network. You didn't even make an effort to find a more neutral (or more importantly qualified) source to start the discussion.
Bob, I have the utmost respect for you. You are clearly a very smart man with a keen well-disciplined mind. I see it in your football posts every day. Yet suddenly when it comes to world issues, everything is distorted by passing through the lens of a conservative ideology. I have to think you are more than capable of starting conversations on these topics from a more middle and unbiased perspective.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2021, 03:31:05 PM
Bob, I do believe you honestly want to have good productive conversations on these topics, but you always seem to start out from the right-wing propaganda perceptive.
I have the utmost respect for you. Yet suddenly when it comes to world issues, everything is distorted by passing through the lens of a conservative ideology.
Rich: It's your opinion that I "start out from the right-wing propaganda perspective" and view issues "through the lens of a conservative ideology." IMO the lens through which you view my posts is a bit foggy. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2021, 03:49:16 PM
Rich: It's your opinion that I "start out from the right-wing propaganda perspective" and view issues "through the lens of a conservative ideology." IMO the lens through which you view my posts is a bit foggy. Bob
Bob,
If I started a thread that was titled "Why are Trump cultists so hard to reason with?" would you say I was trying to have a fair and unbiased discussion on a topic of interest or would you say I was trying to push Democratic or liberal propaganda? I said it before, I am very familiar with the technique of framing and I am well aware of how framing can affect a discussion. It's easy enough to leave the framing behind and create an open and productive field for discussion, it really is.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
Bob,
If I started a thread that was titled "Why are Trump cultists so hard to reason with?" would you say I was trying to have a fair and unbiased discussion on a topic of interest or would you say I was trying to push Democratic or liberal propaganda? I said it before, I am very familiar with the technique of framing and I am well aware of how framing can affect a discussion. It's easy enough to leave the framing behind and create an open and productive field for discussion, it really is.
Rich: If you started such a thread I would ignore it or reply with a contrary view. It is clear that such a post would be expressing an opinion, and I would treat it as such, and react accordingly.
However, other types of posts merely "report" news or an event. You do so every single day on the main board. That's standard operating procedure around here, IMO.
The original post of this thread expresses no opinion. You reacted to it as though it did, so I'll repeat the hackneyed expression, "don't kill the messenger just because you don't like the message."
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 26, 2021, 04:18:10 PM
The original post of this thread expresses no opinion. You reacted to it as though it did, so I'll repeat the hackneyed expression, "don't kill the messenger just because you don't like the message."
Bob
It occurred to me that perhaps you are not familiar with the science of framing. It's a relatively new field but it's one that has quite a few scholars involved. Essentially you can convey an opinion and try to sway people to your way of thinking, simply by how you frame a discussion. In your case instead of framing your discussion in terms of free speech you opted for an extremely partisan framing device used by propandists.
Here is a good intro on framing
QuoteSummary
Political communicators have long used framing as a tactic to try to influence the opinions and political decisions of others. Frames capture an essence of a political issue or controversy, typically the essence that best furthers a communicator
MG,
You consistently refer to the "right wing propaganda machine." Are you really suggesting the conversative message is more prevalent in mass media than the liberal one? I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The liberal message is dominant in:
-Basically every major news network except one
-The vast majority of major newspapers like the NYT, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times, Detroit Free Press, etc.
-Virtually all of Hollywood
-All of Big Tech (this alone is huge)
-Music industry
-Television and streaming services
Etc etc etc.
The country may be half conservative, but the same does not apply to mass media that we are all exposed to everyday. So when you use the word "propaganda" and claim that it only applies to the right, that sounds astonishingly biased and isn't really backed up by facts, given the disprportionate share of exposure we all have to the left wing message.
And I feel I am being reasonable in using the word "message" where you choose to insert the word "propaganda."
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2021, 05:43:34 PM
It occurred to me that perhaps you are not familiar with the science of framing. It's a relatively new field but it's one that has quite a few scholars involved. Essentially you can convey an opinion and try to sway people to your way of thinking, simply by how you frame a discussion. In your case instead of framing your discussion in terms of free speech you opted for an extremely partisan framing device used by propandists.
Rich: It's just a fancy way of saying "loaded question." It's not science, but a gadget used to try to win arguments, and there's nothing new about it... political pollsters have been asking loaded questions forever. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 26, 2021, 06:19:30 PM
MG,
You consistently refer to the "right wing propaganda machine." Are you really suggesting the conversative message is more prevalent in mass media than the liberal one? I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The liberal message is dominant in:
-Basically every major news network except one
-The vast majority of major newspapers like the NYT, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times, Detroit Free Press, etc.
-Virtually all of Hollywood
-All of Big Tech (this alone is huge)
-Music industry
-Television and streaming services
Etc etc etc.
The country may be half conservative, but the same does not apply to mass media that we are all exposed to everyday. So when you use the word "propaganda" and claim that it only applies to the right, that sounds astonishingly biased and isn't really backed up by facts, given the disprportionate share of exposure we all have to the left wing message.
And I feel I am being reasonable in using the word "message" where you choose to insert the word "propaganda."
DB: I've failed with that very argument several times previously, but IMO you have presented it much better/clearer than I ever did, so maybe you've got a shot at getting the message across. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 26, 2021, 06:19:30 PM
MG,
You consistently refer to the "right wing propaganda machine." Are you really suggesting the conversative message is more prevalent in mass media than the liberal one? I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The liberal message is dominant in:
-Basically every major news network except one
-The vast majority of major newspapers like the NYT, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times, Detroit Free Press, etc.
-Virtually all of Hollywood
-All of Big Tech (this alone is huge)
-Music industry
-Television and streaming services
Etc etc etc.
The country may be half conservative, but the same does not apply to mass media that we are all exposed to everyday. So when you use the word "propaganda" and claim that it only applies to the right, that sounds astonishingly biased and isn't really backed up by facts, given the disprportionate share of exposure we all have to the left wing message.
And I feel I am being reasonable in using the word "message" where you choose to insert the word "propaganda."
Here is former Republican House speaker- By JOHN BOEHNER
QuoteBy 2011, the right-wing propaganda nuts had managed to turn Obama into a toxic brand for conservatives. When I was first elected to Congress, we didn
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2021, 07:13:29 PM
So I am hardly the only one who recognizes reality. People on both sides of the aisle see it.
MG,
I am certainly not denying that there are kooks on the right. There is no question about that. But there are on the left as well. There are plenty of extreme and misguided individuals and groups on both sides of the aisle. I don't know a single fair-minded adult who thinks otherwise. Anyone on either side who claims that their side is populated solely by well-meaning, sane, reasonable individuals and that the other side is all crazies and propaganda spreaders is biased and lost to the point of being incapable of having a rational discussion about any political topic.
Any individual will have the end of the spectrum with which they most identify, and that is obviously fine, but once they go down the road of claiming/implying anyone else with an opposing view is irrational or spreading propaganda, all while ignoring or even condoning similar behavior on their own side, loses credibility quickly with any reasonable, fair-minded adult. This to me qualifies as an ad hominem attack, which as we know is a fallacious line of reasoning in any debate. Further, I think it is condescending and wrong to claim that anyone who has different beliefs from those one favors has been brainwashed by a supposed propaganda machine, implying that this individual is too stupid or weak to think for himself and formulate his own viewpoints, unlike the individual making the accusation who of course has thought everything out for himself.
People are always going to disagree. Right-leaning people are not going anywhere, and neither are left-leaning people. They will have to continue to co-exist. I would prefer, and hence I try to promote myself, a less accusatory and less caustic tone in the national discourse than what I am seeing from both sides lately, particularly in the last five years or so. I don't see how constantly pointing the finger at the other side and claiming people are brainwashed or are spreading "propaganda" promotes any sort of constructive dialogue. Rather, I try to listen to the other side, disagree respectfully when I disagree, summarize my rationale for disagreement, and then have a thoughtful and fair discussion. Name calling and complete close-mindedness to any remotely different view does not seem constructive to me. Sadly, so many people on both sides don't seem to agree.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 27, 2021, 04:26:42 AM
MG,
I am certainly not denying that there are kooks on the right. There is no question about that. But there are on the left as well. There are plenty of extreme and misguided individuals and groups on both sides of the aisle. I don't know a single fair-minded adult who thinks otherwise. Anyone on either side who claims that their side is populated solely by well-meaning, sane, reasonable individuals and that the other side is all crazies and propaganda spreaders is biased and lost to the point of being incapable of having a rational discussion about any political topic.
Any individual will have the end of the spectrum with which they most identify, and that is obviously fine, but once they go down the road of claiming/implying anyone else with an opposing view is irrational or spreading propaganda, all while ignoring or even condoning similar behavior on their own side, loses credibility quickly with any reasonable, fair-minded adult. This to me qualifies as an ad hominem attack, which as we know is a fallacious line of reasoning in any debate. Further, I think it is condescending and wrong to claim that anyone who has different beliefs from those one favors has been brainwashed by a supposed propaganda machine, implying that this individual is too stupid or weak to think for himself and formulate his own viewpoints, unlike the individual making the accusation who of course has thought everything out for himself.
People are always going to disagree. Right-leaning people are not going anywhere, and neither are left-leaning people. They will have to continue to co-exist. I would prefer, and hence I try to promote myself, a less accusatory and less caustic tone in the national discourse than what I am seeing from both sides lately, particularly in the last five years or so. I don't see how constantly pointing the finger at the other side and claiming people are brainwashed or are spreading "propaganda" promotes any sort of constructive dialogue. Rather, I try to listen to the other side, disagree respectfully when I disagree, summarize my rationale for disagreement, and then have a thoughtful and fair discussion. Name calling and complete close-mindedness to any remotely different view does not seem constructive to me. Sadly, so many people on both sides don't seem to agree.
DB,
Your comments are so thoughtful, respectful, and well laid out. It really puts me in a bind. Despite all the positives, your point is fundamentally flawed. I am talking about the right-wing propaganda network that both sides (when being honest) fully acknowledge exist. Hell, President Trump even called for a major component FOX News be boycotted because it wasn't propaganda enough for his liking. This network is as well funded as it is destructive. It starts with right-wing think tanks that create the talking points and framing (although under Trump, he often did that instead). It's an echo chamber where they repeat the same stories and utilize the same tactics and even knowing propagate false information like the factually incorrect claims that the election was stolen.
While you laid out reasonable points about there being a right and a left and there being radicals on both sides of the ideological spectrum, that doesn't address the right-wing propaganda machine or the destructive effect it has on our nation.
On January 6, thousands of crazed Americans attacked our nation's capital seeking to overthrow our democracy inspired by lies that the right-wing propaganda network both propagated and conditioned people to accept. That is a truly unprecedented event and has literally nothing to do with your "both sides" talk.
Nor, it that an isolated issue. Look at Covid and the vaccine. We need something like 80% of our nation to get the vaccine to achieve herd immunity and stop the spread of Covid. Yet, 44% of Republicans say they do not intend to get vaccinated while 92% of Democrats have been vaccinated or intend to be. I don't believe that Republicans are inherently stupid or anti-American and that's why they want to harm the nation by not getting vaccinated. Yes, I said, "harm" and that sadly is not hyperbole. Here is the thing as long as people are being infected by Covid, there is a risk with every single infection that a new mutation will develop that will defeat the vaccine and put us back to the beginning. It's literally a race between getting everyone vaccinated (around the world really) and the virus mutating to defeat our vaccine. Yet thanks to the right-wing propaganda network we literally have 44% of Republicans kneecapping our efforts to defeat the virus.
That is a very real problem and again has nothing to do with your both sides discussion.
So I appreciate the courtesy you showed and the generally respectful tone, but you really didn't address the topic at hand.
To circle back to Bob's original right-wing framing, Bob is very unhappy that people an organizations that are pushing false Covid vaccine claims on social media are being "canceled"
Rich: This thread is now at least 5 pages long and you still haven't addressed the main contention in my original post... comparing today's "cancel culture" to McCarthyism of the 1950's. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
Rich: This thread is now at least 5 pages long and you still haven't addressed the main contention in my original post... comparing today's "cancel culture" to McCarthyism of the 1950's. Bob
Bob,
The reality is you want to have a discussion about freedom of speech but recent events would have that discussion come down to this- Do people have a right to yell fire in a crowded movie house?
You know that's not a winning (for your side) discussion, so you created the false framing of being held accountable for false or destructive statements is the same as people fired just for being a member of a political party.
Sorry, but I don't think the front porch should become an extension of the right-wing propaganda machine. Hell, I don't think it should be a platform of any propaganda right or left. I think this forum should be for discussions, not promoting political positions.
Edit to add: Imagine how far one needs to go off the beaten path to equate people who lost their social media accounts for inciting attacks on our government by promoting proven lies about election fraud, with people who lost their jobs and couldn't get another because at one time they were a member of an unpopular political party. You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to get there or just sit back and listen to right-wing propaganda and let them do the mental gymnastics for you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 09:25:42 AM
Imagine how far one needs to go off the beaten path to equate people who lost their social media accounts for inciting attacks on our government by promoting proven lies about election fraud, with people who lost their jobs and couldn't get another because at one time they were a member of an unpopular political party.
Rich: Last time I checked, not a single person in the database was canceled for "inciting attacks on our government." They were canceled because of their beliefs, as were the men and women in the 1950's. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2021, 10:21:24 AM
Rich: Last time I checked, not a single person in the database was canceled for "inciting attacks on our government." They were canceled because of their beliefs, as were the men and women in the 1950's. Bob
Yeah, if you "believed" the lie that the election was stolen, and you pushed that false claim that incited rioting (and justified voter suppression laws), one could technically claim that one was "canceled because of their beliefs". However, the best that could be said about such a claim was that it was wildly misleading. It would be beyond disingenuous to compare it to the right-wing movement of the 50s to punish people for belonging or have belonged to a political party.
Such flawed thinking is very dangerous to our nation. We have seen such false victimization narratives drive people to do very bad things.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 10:30:47 AM
Yeah, if you "believed" the lie that the election was stolen, and you pushed that false claim that incited rioting (and justified voter suppression laws), one could technically claim that one was "canceled because of their beliefs". However, the best that could be said about such a claim was that it was wildly misleading. It would be beyond disingenuous to compare it to the right-wing movement of the 50s to punish people for belonging or have belonged to a political party.
Such flawed thinking is very dangerous to our nation. We have seen such false victimization narratives drive people to do very bad things.
Rich: Not a single person in the database claimed the election was stolen, nor had anything to do with inciting a riot or voter suppression laws. Maybe it's time you actually read the database. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2021, 11:32:10 AM
Rich: Not a single person in the database claimed the election was stolen, nor had anything to do with inciting a riot or voter suppression laws. Maybe it's time you actually read the database. Bob
This post reminds me of the old saying, "be careful of what you wish for". The funny thing about that database that you are promoting on our forum, is it's owners went to great lengths to hide their identities (and by extension their funding). Their "about" page has absolutely no clue who they are, not even a hint. The website also paid to have the ownership of the website itself hidden from the public.
So beyond the obvious, what made you think that this website was a credible source of information?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 11:50:53 AM
This post reminds me of the old saying, "be careful of what you wish for". The funny thing about that database that you are promoting on our forum, it's owners went to great lengths to hide their identities. Their "about" page has absolutely no clue who they are, not even a hint. The website also paid to have the ownership of the website itself hidden from the public.
So beyond the obvious, what made you think that this website was a credible source of information?
Rich: First, the database is searchable for key words, so you can easily see that none of them relate to any of the topics you've been talking about (election, rioting, other illegal acts, etc.).
Second, the owner's identity is immaterial to the correctness of entries. Let me know if you find any that are wrong. I checked about a fourth (or maybe a third) of them and found them all to be correct.
Lastly, either the site itself (or news articles written about the site) tell you why they're hiding their identities, and the answer is obvious. They don't want to fall victim to the same fate as the people in the database.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2021, 12:07:42 PM
Second, the owner's identity is immaterial to the correctness of entries.
Bob
That is an interesting assertion. If I go on the main forum and post a topic that says "an anonymous internet source from an anonymous website says the Giants are drafting Ojulari guaranteed", or "I heard read on realGiantsinsider.com a post from an anonymous author who says that Joe Judge hates Gettleman's guts", I would lose all credibility and be the subject of well-deserved criticism and mockery.
Why would we change the standard for facts in this discussion so drastically? When did we establish the standard of, "if it's on the internet it must be true"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-pHe879l60
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 12:15:37 PM
That is an interesting assertion. If I go on the main forum and post a topic that says "an anonymous internet source from an anonymous website says the Giants are drafting Ojulari guaranteed", or "I heard read on realGiantsinsider.com a post from an anonymous author who says that Joe Judge hates Gettleman's guts", I would lose all credibility and be the subject of well-deserved criticism and mockery.
Rich: Your examples relate to unverifiable assertions. The "cancel" database info is easily verifiable; and the site owner welcomes/encourages feedback, and asks for viewers to point out any erroneous data.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 12:15:37 PM
Why would we change the standard for facts in this discussion so drastically? When did we establish the standard of, "if it's on the internet it must be true"?
Rich: We haven't changed the standard. The database is factual. No one has uncovered an error. You should feel free to criticize/mock me all you wish if you have nothing better to do. It won't change the facts. Bob
Beyond believing what is posted on an anonymous website (which is a standard I proudly don't subscribe to) there is the issue that even if you take the claims at face value, it only takes the word of people who got banned from various social media platforms. As a forum moderator, you of all people would understand the difference between what people say they were banned for versus what people are actually banned for. Rarely does a single post or action elicit a ban, it's usually based on patterns of behavior and escalating discipline measures
One other thing that struck me as "I should have seen it coming", was your effort to paint yourself as the victim. I mean essentially the entire thread is founded on the right-wing tactic of false victimhood (that somehow people who got themselves banned from a social media site for breaking the rules are victims if they also happen to be conservatives), so guess it shouldn't surprise me when you tried to paint yourself as the victim when I properly called out your efforts to paint an anonymous website as a factual source.
I am truly impressed by the right's use of false victimhood. Not only does it distract from a fact and logic-based discussion (very helpful when most of the positions pushed by the right-wing propaganda machine don't hold up to any sort of scrutiny) but it fires up the emotions of anger and resentment which are great for priming people to be manipulated. Throw in "fake news" and "deep-state" and you can effectively isolate an entire group of people from facts and incompatible opinions.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 01:11:58 PM
... there is the issue that even if you take the claims at face value, it only takes the word of people who got banned from various social media platforms... you.... understand the difference between what people say they were banned for versus what people are actually banned for. Rarely does a single post or action elicit a ban, it's usually based on patterns of behavior and escalating discipline measures
Rich: I can agree with virtually all of above portion of your post. There is a certain "incompleteness" in the various entries, and although the owner of the site MIGHT have just taken the word of the people who were canceled, is not a proven fact that the owner did so. Also, inasmuch as the descriptions are quite brief, there is a question about whether we have all the details. Probably not. I have read one analysis of the database which describes it as "not scientific" while still noting that the entries appear to check out as legitimate. However, that fact that data was collected in a non-scientific manner does NOT automatically render it false.
Further, that is not why I started the thread. I put it here for interested people to examine, and as a simple illustration of my point, which is...
The stifling or muffling of a citizen' ability to speak freely about political matters (so long as it does not incite violence or otherwise break the law) should be sacrosanct.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2021, 02:57:33 PM
Rich: I can agree with virtually all of above portion of your post. There is a certain "incompleteness" in the various entries, and although the owner of the site MIGHT have just taken the word of the people who were canceled, is not a proven fact that the owner did so. Also, inasmuch as the descriptions are quite brief, there is a question about whether we have all the details. Probably not. I have read one analysis of the database which describes it as "not scientific" while still noting that the entries appear to check out as legitimate. However, that fact that data was collected in a non-scientific manner does NOT automatically render it false.
Further, that is not why I started the thread. I put it here for interested people to examine, and as a simple illustration of my point, which is...
The stifling or muffling of a citizen' ability to speak freely about political matters (so long as it does not incite violence or otherwise break the law) should be sacrosanct.
Bob
Bob,
You have repeatedly challenged me to prove data false. That is not how we work in the world of science. In science, we ONLY accept data when it is proven correct, true, or accurate. The burden is to prove the validity of the data, not for the observer to disprove. Anonymous website, with brief descriptions, and zero verification is utterly useless data. Of course when you are working on pushing an ideological false narrative the quality of data used to support it, generally isn't subject to vetting as long as it's useful to the cause
I got into a heated political discussion on Facebook with a conservative friend. I consider myself moderately liberal.
It
Quote from: squibber on April 28, 2021, 09:17:49 AM
I got into a heated political discussion on Facebook with a conservative friend. I consider myself moderately liberal.
It
Quote from: squibber on April 28, 2021, 09:17:49 AM
I got into a heated political discussion on Facebook with a conservative friend. I consider myself moderately liberal.
It
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 28, 2021, 11:49:31 AM
Squibber,
I am always mindful of the point raised that people like your friend didn't get to the point they are at with careful unbiased studying of the facts and then forming logical conclusions. As such presenting them with fats and showing the sort of conclusions you would draw from them simply isn't going to work. The right-wing propaganda machine achieves much through emotional manipulation and careful use of logical biases. If you want to reach your friend on an issue you need to appeal to them on an emotional visceral level, not with logic, reason, and cold hard facts.
That said, it might be best to simply avoid the topic, that is what I do with my father who is a tea party conservative/Republican. I remember visiting him some years back and seeing his "Obama is a liberal" protest sign in his garage.
I think there is a parallel to religious discussions I have had online. Facts and logic didn
Quote from: squibber on April 28, 2021, 05:02:52 PM
I think there is a parallel to religious discussions I have had online. Facts and logic didn
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2021, 01:11:58 PM
As a forum moderator, you of all people would understand the difference between what people say they were banned for versus what people are actually banned for. Rarely does a single post or action elicit a ban, it's usually based on patterns of behavior and escalating discipline measures
Huh? ask the
dick face weasel mods on BBWC or Bermuda Bahamas Interactive if that's true...I took a 13 year sabbatical from posting on any Giants.com or related football boards after SB 42 and now when I have come back? I am banned or wont allow me to register. a big middle finger to them and a huge thank you to this board for allowing me to converse.
ok - back to cancelled people!
Is this "cancel culture" or something else?
https://justthenews.com/government/congress/top-gop-senator-slams-party-attempt-oust-liz-cheney-cancel-culture
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 11, 2021, 05:37:02 PM
Is this "cancel culture" or something else?
https://justthenews.com/government/congress/top-gop-senator-slams-party-attempt-oust-liz-cheney-cancel-culture
Your website that claims to care about cancel culture hasn't listed Liz Cheney who is being punished for telling the truth and putting the Country before Donald Trump. Why is that?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 08:08:36 AM
Your website that claims to care about cancel culture hasn't listed Liz Cheney who is being punished for telling the truth and putting the Country before Donald Trump. Why is that?
Rich: I'm repeating myself... anyone (including Cheney herself) can submit her situation for consideration, including you. So I guess the answer to your question is... perhaps because no one has submitted her name.
On the other hand, the implication of your question is that this is an instance of "cancellation." MY question above asks whether or not she is being canceled.
I see significant differences between "cancel culture" actions and Cheney's situation. The issue is whether the those differences are sufficient to justify making a distinction between Cheney's case and "cancellation."
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 12, 2021, 08:16:33 AM
Rich: I'm repeating myself... anyone (including Cheney herself) can submit her situation for consideration, including you. So I guess the answer to your question is... perhaps because no one has submitted her name.
On the other hand, the implication of your question is that this is an instance of "cancellation." MY question above asks whether or not she is being canceled.
I see significant differences between "cancel culture" actions and Cheney's situation. The issue is whether the those differences are sufficient to justify making a distinction between Cheney's case and "cancellation."
Bob
The secret people running that website are no doubt well aware of Cheney being canceled. Seems the only goal of that website is to make social media a safe space to spread dangerous lies and hatred in the form of bigotry, intolerance, and prejudice.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 08:23:10 AM
The secret people running that website are no doubt well aware of Cheney being canceled. Seems the only goal of that website is to make social media a safe space to spread dangerous lies and hatred in the form of bigotry, intolerance, and prejudice.
Rich: I think you meant "the Cheney situation" rather than what you wrote. It is hardly clear that removing her from party leadership is the same as "cancellation."
Each political party in Congress is free to choose leaders for any reason, good or bad, fair or unfair. When Trump was voted out of office, was he "cancelled?" I think not.
The factual circumstances underlying the cases enumerated on that list are a different animal. No muzzle is being put on Cheney's mouth. She is still free to speak her mind, and did so last night on the House floor.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 12, 2021, 08:40:05 AM
. It is hardly clear that removing her from party leadership is the same as "cancellation."
Bob
True, getting fired from your job for the crime of telling the truth is a million times worth than having your Facebook account suspended