The polarization in this country seems to get worse and worse by the day. So much hostility and hatred towards those who don't share their rigid and demanding opinions. Overly sensitive people who fail to grasp a bigger picture are so wrapped up in their points of view that they've shut down open thought and constructive debate. It's worrisome. I listened to a pundit the other day who made a lot of sense. Basically she said there is an intrinsic need for religion in people's lives (even if they don't know it), but because traditional religion has been deteriorating at such a rapid pace, a hole is left in people. Churches are shutting down or attendance so low that chapels are mostly empty on Sunday mornings, etc. Partly to blame because of scandals galore, but also because of a level of comfort to people in this day of technology and easy living. But because there is an innate need in people to have religion, the "hole in their soul" gets filled with a new type of religion to a very large audience: "politics". Those who have shunned traditional religion in favor of the "new" (yet ancient) religion of separating people into groups similar to caste systems of old, have the same fervor as the most religious zealot. Hatred abounds between castes for whatever reason (mostly low IQ IMO, but I digress). Regardless, it seems this once great country is becoming polarized to the point that people utterly despise and hate others simply because they don't share the beliefs of their political group of choice. Political pundits have become "evangelists" and "fire and brimstone preachers". Colleges and Universities have become the new churches of choice and are filled with religious zealots ready to spread the good word and will go to any length to convert "non-believers" including rioting, shaming, and open humiliation. The embers of hatred have been spread across the land and fanned into deadly flames. Welcome to our new America.
Read a great article from a woman (Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a research fellow at Stanford University
Jolly: Nice post. I agree polarization is bad. I try to keep that issue at the forefront of my reasoning and think twice, and take care what I write and how I say it.
I believe and hope I'm doing my best. However, I don't think worrying about polarization should cut off or deter discussion of contentious issues.
Otherwise, we would be essentially each by "cancelling" ourselves. I think that is also bad.
Bob
JBG,
It's sort of interesting, that you rightfully are concerned with polarization yet in your talk about polarization you painted colleges and universities as the villains causing the polarization.
Do you think it's possible that such finger-pointing is part of what is creating the polarization?
As for the theory you put forth about people's need for religion, what role do you think the Evengicical movement that freely mixes religion and politics might play in this nation's increasing polarization.
JBG,
Society has always had it share of angry scoldy people who mean to shun and shame the populace into conformity. Conventional norms are driven by the media now. Used to be some other people who held that job. Society hasn't changed. The people who slide into those roles haven't changed. They just have new job titles.
I also think that you can't have a discussion about the polarization of American without addressing the elephant in the room- Donald Trump
Look until Donald Trump both sides of the aisle were pretty good at at least paying lip service to unity and certainly both sides of the aisle kept the dignity of our nation's highest office by not engaging in childish name-calling and insult. This is true of Republicans like Reagan and Bush 1 and 2. This is true of Democrats like Carter, Clinton, or Obama.
With Trump, you had a man who actively encouraged polarization both in words and deeds. His deeds and behavior were factually different than other Presidents, Republican or Democratic, and I think most would agree (even if unwilling to admi) that those unusual actions contributed to the problem we see today.
Of course, the deeper issue, is why did so many Americans support or endorse that sort of behavior from our President?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 11:34:09 AM
JBG,
It's sort of interesting, that you rightfully are concerned with polarization yet in your talk about polarization you painted colleges and universities as the villains causing the polarization.
Well, to qualify my opinion let me give you my background. I didn't go to college out of high school and instead completed a 5-year tool and die apprenticeship. I didn't like the trade so I decided to go back to school in my 20's to approach life on a different career path. Two years later I graduated from community college in math/statistics (cum laude BTW). I then transferred to SUNY Cortland for three and a half years, the first year as a math major/computer programmer minor before switching to a history major, since that was where my real interests lied. From there I transferred and graduated from Binghamton University (also at the top of my class - for which means little, I know). From there I continued graduate studies at Syracuse University and maintained a 4.0 (again, irrelevant, but just pointing out I took my studies seriously and didn't go to college to have fun). Because my constant transferring to different colleges and changing majors, it took me more than two decades to get the education I sought. The point is, I've spent way too much of my life going to school and have sat at the feet of Marxist Evangelists for over 20 years. I have been scorned by professors for speaking up until I finally just shut up in order to get through the damn classes and get my sheepskin. I can tell you from first hand experience that many professors wear Marxism on their lapels with great pride and they can turn any subject into the wonders of Marxism and the evils of capitalism. The idea that any type of conservatism or Christian ethics came through the lips of a professor is borderline crazy. In my experience, they openly mocked Judaeo-Christianity values and ridiculed their adherents. Hence the reason I was a math and statistics major early on was it was a way to avoid having Marxism driven down my throat hour after hour, day after day. For a kid born in the 50's, raised on a farm and went to church every Sunday, it's a harrowing experience to discover everything you ever believed about hard work, personal responsibility, and love of country to be silly and dead wrong.
QuoteDo you think it's possible that such finger-pointing is part of what is creating the polarization?
I don't think I was "finger pointing" as much as pointing out how polarized this country has become and the increasing hostility I've personally noticed in the past few years. Some of the things I've seen or heard about activists trying to get their own way is vile and absurd. I am not pointing my finger at you or anyone on this board. I just think the polarization is going to lead to an ugly ending and it doesn't bode well for humanity and America in general - that is just my opinion.[/quote]
QuoteAs for the theory you put forth about people's need for religion, what role do you think the Evengicical movement that freely mixes religion and politics might play in this nation's increasing polarization.
Actually, it wasn't my theory, it was that of a woman psychiatrist on the radio who stated that people's innate need for religion have turned to politics as their religion, but that doesn't matter. I don't know what evangelical churches you go to in order to state that they mix religion and politics because that certainly never happens in churches I've attended - and I'm sure you would categorize them as "evangelical" (which I'd kind of like to hear you definition of "evangelical" and your personal experiences at those churches - not regurgitated crap written by anti-Christian activists). The churches I attended never talked about politics, but they did talk about a lot of things that liberals would scorn or simply laugh off: the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage, honesty, compassion, personal responsibility, helping others, love of neighbor, etc., which flies in the face of today's modern society and is fodder for jokes at schools of "higher" learning (based on my personal experience). As far as people who attend church and why they also tend to adhere to the messages like I just posted, it is their nature to vote against policies that are polar opposite of their beliefs. I actually asked a pastor one time why he never discussed politics or endorsed a politician and he simply said, "there is no place for politics here". That's been my experience in every church I've ever attended.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 12:54:34 PM
I also think that you can't have a discussion about the polarization of American without addressing the elephant in the room- Donald Trump
Look until Donald Trump both sides of the aisle were pretty good at at least paying lip service to unity and certainly both sides of the aisle kept the dignity of our nation's highest office by not engaging in childish name-calling and insult. This is true of Republicans like Reagan and Bush 1 and 2. This is true of Democrats like Carter, Clinton, or Obama.
With Trump, you had a man who actively encouraged polarization both in words and deeds. His deeds and behavior were factually different than other Presidents, Republican or Democratic, and I think most would agree (even if unwilling to admi) that those unusual actions contributed to the problem we see today.
Of course, the deeper issue, is why did so many Americans support or endorse that sort of behavior from our President?
The sheer hatred of Trump is an enigma to me. Before running for president, he was adored across the land by both left and right. I remember watching a PBS documentary on the great ones who built this country. It focused on the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts, Edisons, Fords, etc., and they used interviews with Trump and other successful businessmen who offered their opinions on what drove them. There was no mockery when Trump spoke, but a sort of reverence.
I also remember Oprah having Trump on as a guest and she fawned over him. They got into politics a little and she asked him if he ever considered getting into politics and told him he'd make a great mayor of NYC or governor. He told her that he wasn't political, but he thought that if the country was really heading in the wrong direction, he'd think about it. For which she praised him and encouraged him to do so.
Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.
I've always been amazed at how quickly people come out of the shadows and show a hatred that is hard to believe. I'm sure the media didn't help by portraying him in every negative light they could conjure up. I honestly don't know what it is about Trump that brought out such sheer hatred. I've been interested in politics my whole life and was radically against some policies thrown at us from Presidents and other heavy hitting politicians, but I never stooped to hating anyone. As I was taught from birth, "hatred destroys the vessel that contains it" which is so true. I've seen people hate someone and the target of their hatred either 1) doesn't care or 2) laughs about it because of the damage it does to the person who hates. I've never seen hatred hurt anyone other than the person who has it. It makes them irrational and unable to think clearly about things that are actually important. Time spent hating is just erasing quality time from one's life.
Regardless, the hatred of Trump is confounding. I understand that he lacked the typical political demeanor of polished politicians who can speak in circles, say nothing of substance, while making calming and likeable facial expressions that say "trust me" - and people do trust them for some reason that is beyond me. Trump obviously lacked the decorum of people who have spent their lives in politics honing their skills at "style" whilst being careful to say nothing of "substance". To me, I'll always take substance over style, but for politicians seeking love - it's all about style over substance and being able to wordsmith in such a way as to insinuate he or she will be good for you without committing to anything. It's a game that is perfected by snake oil salesmen and politicians. That's where Trump failed gallantly. He came out and said what he thought and meant what he said - even if it wasn't popular (you never had to wonder what he thought). He then attempted to fight for what he promised against a deeply sated political body who doesn't like their cushy little personal world shaken up.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 12, 2021, 01:44:47 PM
Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.
Jolly: Interesting? I guess. Unexpected? Hardly. Today "Darth Vader's" daughter (Liz Cheney) is a media hero. How long will that last (rhetorical)? She stands FOR everything the Democrats hate (except Trump). Bob
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 12, 2021, 01:44:47 PM
The sheer hatred of Trump is an enigma to me. Before running for president, he was adored across the land by both left and right. I remember watching a PBS documentary on the great ones who built this country. It focused on the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts, Edisons, Fords, etc., and they used interviews with Trump and other successful businessmen who offered their opinions on what drove them. There was no mockery when Trump spoke, but a sort of reverence.
I also remember Oprah having Trump on as a guest and she fawned over him. They got into politics a little and she asked him if he ever considered getting into politics and told him he'd make a great mayor of NYC or governor. He told her that he wasn't political, but he thought that if the country was really heading in the wrong direction, he'd think about it. For which she praised him and encouraged him to do so.
Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.
I've always been amazed at how quickly people come out of the shadows and show a hatred that is hard to believe. I'm sure the media didn't help by portraying him in every negative light they could conjure up. I honestly don't know what it is about Trump that brought out such sheer hatred. I've been interested in politics my whole life and was radically against some policies thrown at us from Presidents and other heavy hitting politicians, but I never stooped to hating anyone. As I was taught from birth, "hatred destroys the vessel that contains it" which is so true. I've seen people hate someone and the target of their hatred either 1) doesn't care or 2) laughs about it because of the damage it does to the person who hates. I've never seen hatred hurt anyone other than the person who has it. It makes them irrational and unable to think clearly about things that are actually important. Time spent hating is just erasing quality time from one's life.
Regardless, the hatred of Trump is confounding. I understand that he lacked the typical political demeanor of polished politicians who can speak in circles, say nothing of substance, while making calming and likeable facial expressions that say "trust me" - and people do trust them for some reason that is beyond me. Trump obviously lacked the decorum of people who have spent their lives in politics honing their skills at "style" whilst being careful to say nothing of "substance". To me, I'll always take substance over style, but for politicians seeking love - it's all about style over substance and being able to wordsmith in such a way as to insinuate he or she will be good for you without committing to anything. It's a game that is perfected by snake oil salesmen and politicians. That's where Trump failed gallantly. He came out and said what he thought and meant what he said - even if it wasn't popular (you never had to wonder what he thought). He then attempted to fight for what he promised against a deeply sated political body who doesn't like their cushy little personal world shaken up.
JBG,
Why do you assume that those who expectations of a certain level of behavior from our President must hate him? Has it ever occurred to you that by making that assumption you are literally shutting the door on any and all criticism no matter how valid?
If you want to end this polarization, one of the things you need to do is LISTEN to others especially those you don't agree with. When you decide that anyone who doesn't support Donald Trump is impaired by "sheer hatred" you have eliminated any and all possibilities of any sort of productive discussion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 02:09:33 PM
JBG,
Why do you assume that those who expectations of a certain level of behavior from our President must hate him? Has it ever occurred to you that by making that assumption you are literally shutting the door on any and all criticism no matter how valid?
If you want to end this polarization, one of the things you need to do is LISTEN to others especially those you don't agree with. When you decide that anyone who doesn't support Donald Trump is impaired by "sheer hatred" you have eliminated any and all possibilities of any sort of productive discussion.
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you hate him so much? Why does the media and people like Oprah (both sources adored him and fawned over him for decades) have a seething hatred for him? Was it because he put America first? Was it because he made America energy independent for the first time in over 70 years dropping gas prices to historical lows? Was it because he was the first president in 50 years who didn't get us involved in a new war? Was it because he neutralized the constant nemesis responsible for untold death and destruction for 8 years (ISIS)? Was it because he got rid of the world
Trump was the hate magnet that exposed the media for its obvious bias. You dont have to like Trump to see that.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 12, 2021, 03:17:10 PM
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you hate him so much? Why does the media and people like Oprah (both sources adored him and fawned over him for decades) have a seething hatred for him? Was it because he put America first? Was it because he made America energy independent for the first time in over 70 years dropping gas prices to historical lows? Was it because he was the first president in 50 years who didn't get us involved in a new war? Was it because he neutralized the constant nemesis responsible for untold death and destruction for 8 years (ISIS)? Was it because he got rid of the world
Quote from: jimmyz on May 12, 2021, 03:48:34 PM
Trump was the hate magnet that exposed the media for its obvious bias. You dont have to like Trump to see that.
The media bias swings both ways, my friend. Just turn on Fox or Newsmax these days and you'll see plenty of hate magnets.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 03:56:10 PM
JBG,
Do you think it's possible (even if it's not actually true) that it's possible to disapprove of how Donald Trump conducted himself as a man and as a man who was President, without being consumed with hatred? I am not talking about policy disagreement but simply that one doesn't approve of name-calling and other insults. Maybe they disapprove of Donald's many affairs. Maybe they were bothered by the "grab them by the p*ssy" comments or how contractors often had to sue to get their payments.
So is it possible that among Trump's 80 or so million critics (just in this country) there was at least one that wasn't swayed by hatred but simply felt that Trump didn't meet their moral and ethical standards?
Like I said in a previous response...I'll take substance over style any day. I'm so sick of sweet talking politicians who have honey dripping off their lips while flattering observers and always trying to be politically correct...and then go back to the office and lead the country in the direction of a cliff while laughing all the way to the bank.
I guarantee if style is that important to you, you would have hated Andrew Jackson, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and LBJ (the man who used the n word every day in office and sometimes 50 times a day and doing things like pulling out his penis in response to a reporter's question and saying "that's why").
Dems seem to have zero issues with the extreme racist LBJ who openly stated he hated blacks (as did Wilson and FDR before him), throwing the n word around (and proud of it) and was prone to showing off his willie to unsuspecting bystanders or JFK being a drug addict while bedding Hollywood harlots and every pretty women he knew (except Jackie), yet suddenly become so horribly offended by Trump's crudeness that they become extreme hate mongers because this particular President "didn't meet their moral and ethical standards"...LOL (double standard much?)
I know this is getting off track once Trump was brought up, but did anyone read the article? Did anyone agree with her or have reason to disagree with her? I thought it was well written, but what the hell do I know? :-??
JBG,
It's your right to like or support Donald Trump. You don't even owe any of us an explanation. Still you sort of skirted my question. Do you think it's possible to have legitimate criticism of Donald Trump? Are all criticism the result of "hatred"?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 06:02:40 PM
JBG,
It's your right to like or support Donald Trump. You don't even owe any of us an explanation. Still you sort of skirted my question. Do you think it's possible to have legitimate criticism of Donald Trump? Are all criticism the result of "hatred"?
Sure it's okay to criticize. I often criticized him for tweeting things that I thought were beneath the office of the President. But I loved how hard he worked at getting extremely important things done - things that were said to be impossible (the Abraham Accords, becoming energy independent, bringing manufacturing back, moving the embassy to Jerusalem, getting the cost of gas down the lowest in a couple decades, etc.). Like I have said, I always choose substance over style. I could puke :sick: watching slick politicians use style to get elected. I look for results - positive results. I don't really give a rats ass if the person puts on an air to appear other than just another human. I understand human nature and all those nice speaking, professional sounding pols talk like truckers when they are with their pals and think they'll never be heard. Sometimes it slips and you see the real person...like when DeBlasio made an inside black joke calling being late "CP time" ("colored people time"). I didn't get it, but it bothered me that Hillary knew what he was talking about. I still don't get it, but I guess it's something known to white politicians (https://www.npr.org/2016/04/12/473953878/clinton-and-de-blasio-blasted-over-cp-time-joke)
People are always going to be people and all have faults. We are not a perfect people! Trump was an unpolished civilian politician who spent his life building great buildings and hadn't spent a second of his life in politics...and in fact, supported Democrats most of his life. He didn't spend his life sucking off the government tit while learning how to massage people with style to get elected term after term after term. He couldn't have been more down to earth and straight forward...and at times, pretty crass (just like Andrew Jackson and LBJ - although LBJ knew how to turn it off when if front of a camera). It shocked people when they saw and heard Trump get feisty when they were used to the boring polished fakeness of typical life long politicians...i.e., the art of screwing a person while making them think they aren't getting screwed and are getting something special. =))
In short, criticism of politicians is fair game and it happens to every President since roughly half the population already despise you because they voted for the other guy. Again, human nature. However, the dripping vile and seething hatred I hear spewed about Trump is classless and disturbing to me. It would be the same for me to hear that stuff spewed about any President, regardless of party. I remember a woman who hated GW so much she said she wishes someone would walk up to him and shoot him in the head and blow his brains out. I told her, "you don't really mean that" and she replied, "oh yes I do - I would dance in the street and celebrate". Makes me think the human race is denigrating to a point of no return. The original article I attached to my opening post is pretty spot on (unfortunately) concerning where this country is headed.
I thoroughly agree with you JBG. Trump took care of ther country & was excellent at it. The fact he wasn't a politician combined with the fact that he came from Jamaica meant that he wouldn't take crap from anyone. He gave as good as he got! He wasn't suave like a lifetime politician; he just took on everything as it came & was damn good at it.
JBG and Jim,
I am confused, are you pro or anti polarization? Seems like the two of you admire that Trump greatly increased the polarization in our country.
Quote from: jimv on May 13, 2021, 12:28:07 AM
I thoroughly agree with you JBG. Trump took care of ther country & was excellent at it. The fact he wasn't a politician combined with the fact that he came from Jamaica meant that he wouldn't take crap from anyone. He gave as good as he got! He wasn't suave like a lifetime politician; he just took on everything as it came & was damn good at it.
Yeah, history will show that he accomplished more in 4 years than almost any other politician who spent a lifetime in politics. The worst thing that will be said about him 50 years from now will be a note under his official Presidential picture, "Doesn't Play Nice". Thing is, the ones he wasn't nice to, were mainly career politicians who got where they were because they knew how the game was played and they had figured it out. They didn't like getting pushed out of their comfort zone where the traditional game was no longer being played. Trump was a bull in a china shop the way he refused to "play their game" causing hysteria among the gamers. He only cared about doing what was right for the American people and could care less about his fellow politicians and playing their game. Those career politicians despised the man for not being one of them.
JBG,
When I hear you and JimV praise Donald Trump (or at least speak admiringly about how "he would take any crap") for increasing our nation's divides, I can't help but be pessimistic about the future of our nation. I feel strongly that Lincoln was spot one when he said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand". I feel it's the job of a leader/President to at least try and unify the nation and be the president of all Americans, I am quite adamant on that point. It seems you and JimV are acknowledging that Donald Trump failed at that critical aspect of being President, while oddly admiring him for that shortcoming ("he isn't a politician", "he doesn't take any guff")
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 13, 2021, 06:46:09 AM
JBG and Jim,
I am confused, are you pro or anti polarization? Seems like the two of you admire that Trump greatly increased the polarization in our country.
Anti polarization!
Trump didn't cause the polarization, the butt-hurt politicians like Pelosi, loathsome conniving politician Adam Schiff, the complicit media, the billionaires club, tech magnates, Hollywood actors, and other inside elitists who spent 4+ years and untold billions spreading negative vibes across the country24-7 in hopes to influence the gullible and ill-informed enough to turn normal people into hate mongers. It worked and THEY are to blame, not the target of their hatred or the little guy who fell for it. Trump rocked the boat of the haves in order to help the have-nots. The haves (who basically own everything) manipulated the have-nots into their snare of deception.
Look, politics has always been a blood sport. The little guy is always the target of manipulation. It goes back, not hundreds of years, but thousands of years. Heck, if you read the Bible you see that King David wrote in the Psalms, "my enemies lay traps for me. Those who wish me harm make plans to ruin me. All day long they plan their treachery." Sounds like it could be written by Trump regarding CNN, MSNBC, Facebook, Twitter, NY Times, Washington Post, etc.
It isn't something new. The polarization we see today (which is worse than anytime in my lifetime) is due to the manipulation of the masses by those who hold all the power and hold the tools to inform or misinform the public. If the little guy takes the bait, the rich and powerful win.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 13, 2021, 08:56:43 AM
Anti polarization!
Trump didn't cause the polarization, the butt-hurt politicians like Pelosi, loathsome conniving politician Adam Schiff, the complicit media, the billionaires club, tech magnates, Hollywood actors, and other inside elitists who spent 4+ years and untold billions spreading negative vibes across the country24-7 in hopes to influence the gullible and ill-informed enough to turn normal people into hate mongers. It worked and THEY are to blame, not the target of their hatred or the little guy who fell for it. Trump rocked the boat of the haves in order to help the have-nots. The haves (who basically own everything) manipulated the have-nots into their snare of deception.
Look, politics has always been a blood sport. The little guy is always the target of manipulation. It goes back, not hundreds of years, but thousands of years. Heck, if you read the Bible you see that King David wrote in the Psalms, "my enemies lay traps for me. Those who wish me harm make plans to ruin me. All day long they plan their treachery." Sounds like it could be written by Trump regarding CNN, MSNBC, Facebook, Twitter, NY Times, Washington Post, etc.
It isn't something new. The polarization we see today (which is worse than anytime in my lifetime) is due to the manipulation of the masses by those who hold all the power and hold the tools to inform or misinform the public. If the little guy takes the bait, the rich and powerful win.
JBG,
You talk about how Trump managed to act and speak in a way that inspired not dislike but hatred. You talk about how he "didn't play well with others". You talk about how he didn't take guff from anyone. You speak about how he would insult others and be frequently rude as a refreshing change from the usual politicians.
How do you figure that actions such as those did not serve to further divide our nation?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 13, 2021, 09:05:06 AM
JBG,
You talk about how Trump managed to act and speak in a way that inspired not dislike but hatred. You talk about how he "didn't play well with others". You talk about how he didn't take guff from anyone. You speak about how he would insult others and be frequently rude as a refreshing change from the usual politicians.
How do you figure that actions such as those did not serve to further divide our nation?
Like I said, "he didn't divide the nation", those who hold all the power of information divided the nation. Little people like you and I have zero voice. We can banter back and forth on a message board, but it changes no ones opinions and only serves as a chance to have a voice, albeit to an audience so small it's like a drop of water in the ocean.
Trump was NOT an insider. He (according to the established politicians who played the game to get where they were at) was never supposed to be able to "crack the impossible egg" and wander into their world. He wasn't part of the inside elite who drank 12 year old W.L. Weller Bourbon at 25.00 a shot while smoking 100.00 Cubans and making backroom deals with powerful lobbyists and other politicians with a "wink, wink" I scratch your back you scratch mine. This "good ole boys club" has been around since the conception of America and it has always been how "things get done". As far as they were concerned, Trump didn't belong there. He hadn't played their hidden games and earned his stripes. And of course, the big media and their power players have been in bed with the "good ole boys club" forever so it was a natural reaction to "seek and destroy this renegade who has no right to be here in this very exclusive club". It was the rich and powerful who were shaken to the core that Trump gained office. It wasn't the insiders that got Trump elected (the way it's supposed to be), it was the little people who went out and voted. So it became their only mission for the next 4 years to spend whatever it takes, say whatever it takes, to figure out how to manipulate the little people to go back to status quo. That's what they did and they won. They successfully got a pliable old white geezer in his place who won't rock the boat of the "good ole boys club" and will do what he's told by insiders. Back to the good old days of aged bourbon and foot-long cubans, laughing in the smoke-filled back rooms with dollars signs in their eyes and beautiful young women serving their every need. And of course, the little guy loses again. Back to 3.00+ for a gallon of gas, back to purchasing oil from countries that hate us, back to transporting oil in Warren Buffet's rickety trains instead of a safe pipeline while simultaneously increasing his wealth, back to the good old days of runaway inflation, being abused by other countries, back to saber-rattling and getting involved in more wars....all while the elite get richer and the little guy gets poorer.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 13, 2021, 09:36:55 AM
Like I said, "he didn't divide the nation", those who hold all the power of information divided the nation. Little people like you and I have zero voice. We can banter back and forth on a message board, but it changes no ones opinions and only serves as a chance to have a voice, albeit to an audience so small it's like a drop of water in the ocean.
Trump was NOT an insider. He (according to the established politicians who played the game to get where they were at) was never supposed to be able to "crack the impossible egg" and wander into their world. He wasn't part of the inside elite who drank 12 year old W.L. Weller Bourbon at 25.00 a shot while smoking 100.00 Cubans and making backroom deals with powerful lobbyists and other politicians with a "wink, wink" I scratch your back you scratch mine. This "good ole boys club" has been around since the conception of America and it has always been how "things get done". As far as they were concerned, Trump didn't belong there. He hadn't played their hidden games and earned his stripes. And of course, the big media and their power players have been in bed with the "good ole boys club" forever so it was a natural reaction to "seek and destroy this renegade who has no right to be here in this very exclusive club". It was the rich and powerful who were shaken to the core that Trump gained office. It wasn't the insiders that got Trump elected (the way it's supposed to be), it was the little people who went out and voted. So it became their only mission for the next 4 years to spend whatever it takes, say whatever it takes, to figure out how to manipulate the little people to go back to status quo. That's what they did and they won. They successfully got a pliable old white geezer in his place who won't rock the boat of the "good ole boys club" and will do what he's told by insiders. Back to the good old days of aged bourbon and foot-long cubans, laughing in the smoke-filled back rooms with dollars signs in their eyes and beautiful young women serving their every need. And of course, the little guy loses again. Back to 3.00+ for a gallon of gas, back to purchasing oil from countries that hate us, back to transporting oil in Warren Buffet's rickety trains instead of a safe pipeline while simultaneously increasing his wealth, back to the good old days of runaway inflation, being abused by other countries, back to saber-rattling and getting involved in more wars....all while the elite get richer and the little guy gets poorer.
How do you explain that after 250+ years of peaceful transfers of power, under Donald Trump we witnessed a violent insurrection and repeated efforts to overthrow our government? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how much Donald Trump, who was President and leaders set the tone, was ripping our nation apart?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 13, 2021, 09:57:05 AM
How do you explain that after 250+ years of peaceful transfers of power, under Donald Trump we witnessed a violent insurrection and repeated efforts to overthrow our government?
There was no attempt to overthrow the government unless you redefine "overthrow the government" to fit your anti-Trump agenda. A handful of angry citizens stormed the capital and that was very wrong...just like the leftist activists burning down Portland, Ore. Very wrong.
QuoteWouldn't that be a good indicator of how much Donald Trump, who was President and leaders set the tone, was ripping our nation apart?
The tone has been set by the powerful people who control the masses through media and manipulate people to their liking...which is to retain power and wealth off the backs of the common working people. Trump was a leader - one who worked hard and worked ridiculous hours to steer the country back in the direction favorable to the common folk. He was hated for it - all because he didn't favor the fat cats behind closed doors that run CNN, MSNBC, etc, and the super billionaires who control social media platforms like the Dorseys, the Zuckerbergs, etc. When the richest people in the country who hold untold massive wealth conspire to bring down a sitting President, you just know that President is doing something right. The President is not supposed to care about the little guy - he's supposed to help the already super rich.
Yes, Trump pissed off the super rich elitists and they retaliated with a concerted effort to destroy him from day one. And they succeeded. Now we have a low energy, non-leader patsy who will do EXACTLY what they want him to do. We will get rapid inflation, bigger government, weaker all around, and probably get into another war because Biden has always voted favorably for war and prides himself in it....but not to worry, the already rich will get even richer and more powerful. It's how the system works. The rich and powerful do not like renegades like Trump interfering with their efforts to control everything in their favor and fighting for the little guy. The rich and powerful do not want the little guy to have a say in their world. They win again and the commoners lose again. What a country.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 13, 2021, 10:57:25 AM
There was no attempt to overthrow the government unless you redefine "overthrow the government" to fit your anti-Trump agenda. A handful of angry citizens stormed the capital and that was very wrong...just like the leftist activists burning down Portland, Ore. Very wrong.
The tone has been set by the powerful people who control the masses through media and manipulate people to their liking...which is to retain power and wealth off the backs of the common working people. Trump was a leader - one who worked hard and worked ridiculous hours to steer the country back in the direction favorable to the common folk. He was hated for it - all because he didn't favor the fat cats behind closed doors that run CNN, MSNBC, etc, and the super billionaires who control social media platforms like the Dorseys, the Zuckerbergs, etc. When the richest people in the country who hold untold massive wealth conspire to bring down a sitting President, you just know that President is doing something right. The President is not supposed to care about the little guy - he's supposed to help the already super rich.
Yes, Trump pissed off the super rich elitists and they retaliated with a concerted effort to destroy him from day one. And they succeeded. Now we have a low energy, non-leader patsy who will do EXACTLY what they want him to do. We will get rapid inflation, bigger government, weaker all around, and probably get into another war because Biden has always voted favorably for war and prides himself in it....but not to worry, the already rich will get even richer and more powerful. It's how the system works. The rich and powerful do not like renegades like Trump interfering with their efforts to control everything in their favor and fighting for the little guy. The rich and powerful do not want the little guy to have a say in their world. They win again and the commoners lose again. What a country.
So Trump is Schr
JBG,
Just to address a point. Donald Trump tried multiple times to overthrow our government. After he lost the election he tried to get his Republican allies at the state level to overturn the legal results. Then he tried to get his republican allies in congress to overturn the legal results. When all of that failed, he sent an angry treasonous right-wing mob to attack our nation's capital.
I really fear for our nation's future. How democratic institutions withstood Trump's and the Republican's attempts to overthrow our government this time, but what about next time????? Trump and his GOP allies have already punished and where they could remove those patriotic Republicans that put their nation ahead of Donald Trump. Liz Cheney was removed from power for daring to speak the truth that Trump lost the election.
So with the patriotic and honorable Republicans being removed from power, what happens next time. There is an excellent chance those forces will simply say "we don't like the results of the election, so we are going to declare ourselves the winners". It's a frightening and very realistic threat
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 12, 2021, 11:34:09 AM
JBG,
As for the theory you put forth about people's need for religion, what role do you think the Evengicical movement that freely mixes religion and politics might play in this nation's increasing polarization.
There clearly are Evangelical leaders that mix politics and religion. Franklin Graham is the poster child for it. Just follow his Facebook page for a few weeks. He called Democrats and liberals anti-God socialists. He spoke against liberal policies and he worked to strip equal protections for gays and transgender. He also mirrored his comments to what Trump was saying. When Trump was running for President and was talking about a Muslim ban, Franklin was fanning the flames of fear and hatred against Muslims.
There is a danger in mixing politics with religion. I read a study that found in this environment, when political beliefs are at odds with someone
Quote from: squibber on May 14, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
There clearly are Evangelical leaders that mix politics and religion. Franklin Graham is the poster child for it. Just follow his Facebook page for a few weeks. He called Democrats and liberals anti-God socialists. He spoke against liberal policies and he worked to strip equal protections for gays and transgender. He also mirrored his comments to what Trump was saying. When Trump was running for President and was talking about a Muslim ban, Franklin was fanning the flames of fear and hatred against Muslims.
There is a danger in mixing politics with religion. I read a study that found in this environment, when political beliefs are at odds with someone
This is how Republicans who are being paid by our tax dollars behave in Congress. Is it any wonder our nation is becoming more and more polarized?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 14, 2021, 08:19:39 AM
JBG,
Just to address a point. Donald Trump tried multiple times to overthrow our government. After he lost the election he tried to get his Republican allies at the state level to overturn the legal results. Then he tried to get his republican allies in congress to overturn the legal results. When all of that failed, he sent an angry treasonous right-wing mob to attack our nation's capital.
I really fear for our nation's future. How democratic institutions withstood Trump's and the Republican's attempts to overthrow our government this time, but what about next time????? Trump and his GOP allies have already punished and where they could remove those patriotic Republicans that put their nation ahead of Donald Trump. Liz Cheney was removed from power for daring to speak the truth that Trump lost the election.
So with the patriotic and honorable Republicans being removed from power, what happens next time. There is an excellent chance those forces will simply say "we don't like the results of the election, so we are going to declare ourselves the winners". It's a frightening and very realistic threat
It's not the first, nor will be the last time election results had been contested. I seem to recall Gore contested the result against Bush and lost. There might have been others previously, but it does not seem fair to single out the Republicans, when Democrats did the same.
Unless of course, you are focusing on the last election cycle and previous contesting the result does not matter, be that by Republicans or Democrats...
Quote from: Blue4Life on May 14, 2021, 02:55:09 PM
It's not the first, nor will be the last time election results had been contested. I seem to recall Gore contested the result against Bush and lost. There might have been others previously, but it does not seem fair to single out the Republicans, when Democrats did the same.
Unless of course, you are focusing on the last election cycle and previous contesting the result does not matter, be that by Republicans or Democrats...
Actually, there were significant differences between Gore VS Bush and Trump VS Biden
While they both took their challenges to the court, Gore let the courts decide and accepted their decision.
Trump took everything and anything he could think of to court and lost over and over and over again. When that failed he attempted to overthrow our government (as I previously discussed)
Edit to add, I just remember another similarity. There were violent mobs of Republicans attacking the offices where the recounts were taking place. So Republicans trying to use force to overthrow an election isn't all that new
It's amazing Trump even lost supreme court challenges considering he 'packed' the courts with what the Left considers Klansmen.