I know many are blaming the coaching for the team's failings. Yet, to me I can't help but get this nagging suspicion that the team is lacking in talent. This team can and does pull off victories against teams with lesser coaching staff, but when they face teams with competent coaching staff, then the team's lack of talent really shows.
Coaching.
For example name me the 4 starting DB's on our finest team ever, the 1986 Giants.
The issues to me are in this order:
1.QB
2.Talent (particularly OL)
3. Coaching
It's both.
When defenders routinely miss tackles, that's not a talent issue. It's coaching.
When offensive linemen can't hold the point of attack against any of the other 31 teams, that's talent.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on December 26, 2023, 09:13:38 AMCoaching.
For example name me the 4 starting DB's on our finest team ever, the 1986 Giants.
How does 1 position group being sort of nondescript in 86 lead to the conclusion that coaching is the issue this year?
Bet people can name a bit of the front 7 which had 2 HOFers including the best player at his position in the history of the NFL. Outside of Dexter Lawrence, which player from the 2023 front 7 would start on the 86 team?
Quote from: T200 on December 26, 2023, 09:19:58 AMWhen defenders routinely miss tackles, that's not a talent issue. It's coaching.
To me this is a culture issue which is partly a coaching issue but when you're on your 5th HC with the same culture issues it becomes obvious that it's the organization more than the coaching.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 26, 2023, 09:24:03 AMTo me this is a culture issue which is partly a coaching issue but when you're on your 5th HC with the same culture issues it becomes obvious that it's the organization more than the coaching.
The culture issue is really the owner. His "culture" has killed this team for the last decade.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 26, 2023, 09:24:03 AMTo me this is a culture issue which is partly a coaching issue but when you're on your 5th HC with the same culture issues it becomes obvious that it's the organization more than the coaching.
I don't think we'd have these lack of tackling problems if we had a defensive-minded coach. Defenders want the highlight hit instead of the highlight tackle.
Quote from: T200 on December 26, 2023, 09:30:30 AMI don't think we'd have these lack of tackling problems if we had a defensive-minded coach. Defenders want the highlight hit instead of the highlight tackle.
I think the organization (someone mentioned Mara, which I agree with) prioritizes star power above winning. The players see it and respond to it.
I think coaching can mitigate some talent deficiencies. But it can't solve them and can only do so much. This team has far too many holes for Daboll and Co. to plug every leak. They are not immune from criticism, but they're still fighting (which is not insignificant given the challenges faced). More practically, I think Daboll is going to get a chance to prove himself with a QB he chooses rather than inherits (barring a complete Joe Judge-esque meltdown).
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 26, 2023, 09:38:05 AMI think coaching can mitigate some talent deficiencies. But it can't solve them and can only do so much. This team has far too many holes for Daboll and Co. to plug every leak. They are not immune from criticism, but they're still fighting (which is not insignificant given the challenges faced). More practically, I think Daboll is going to get a chance to prove himself with a QB he chooses rather than inherits (barring a complete Joe Judge-esque meltdown).
As painful as this season has been, I think it's only fair to give him another two years if he's allowed to pick his QB next draft. That's not to say he's done everything right. But he did have this team overachieve last season and that tells me that he has a good idea about how to coach. This season has tested him for sure but he's the best we've had since Coughlin.
I don't think coaching is irrelevant by any means, but it is much less important than the talent you have on the field. Is six time Super Bowl winner and HOF coach Bill Belichick all of a sudden a terrible head coach? Or does his roster suck?
Giants fans love to overrate the team's talent and blame coaches and coordinators for anything and everything that goes wrong. This has been going on forever. I suspect this is a subconscious defense mechanism against facing the painful truth that we have terrible players, as this is a much harder problem to fix than just angrily firing coaches, bringing in new ones, and then going through the same process two years later (as we have been doing for a while now).
I am not saying Daboll or the coordinators have done a great job this year or that they are in any way above scrutiny. But this team is bad primarily because of it's severe lack of talent, not because we don't have better coaching.
Schoen had to basically flip the whole roster. Clearly a talent issue. Last year we coached out and lucked into some wins we probably shouldn't have. I just don't think this is a HC issue but I do agree there needs to be better fluidity and talent in the assistant ranks. To me this is just the growing pains of a long rebuild. We are paying the piper for years of bad signings and drafting.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on December 26, 2023, 09:13:38 AMCoaching.
For example name me the 4 starting DB's on our finest team ever, the 1986 Giants.
Mark Collins
Perry Williams
Terry Kinard, then Tom Flynn when Kinard got hurt
Kenny Hill
We had arguably one of the best LB corp ever, and a stout DL.
Coaches can only do so much, one needs talent.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on December 26, 2023, 09:13:38 AMCoaching.
For example name me the 4 starting DB's on our finest team ever, the 1986 Giants.
Perry Williams and Elvis Patterson were the corners with Kenny Hill and Herb Welch as the safeties.
Belichick could get away with them as a result of the finest front seven in Giants' history and one of the modest all-time.
Peace!
Quote from: files58 on December 26, 2023, 10:46:21 AMMark Collins
Perry Williams
Terry Kinard, then Tom Flynn when Kinard got hurt
Kenny Hill
We had arguably one of the best LB corp ever, and a stout DL.
Coaches can only do so much, one needs talent.
I listed the starters in the '86 playoffs while you captured nearly everyone else. They also had Greg Lasker as a rookie back there.
Peace!
Like most things in life the answer is that it is several things. Some of it is definitely an issue of talent - Dex and a fit AT might be our only starters who would definitely start for the Eagles. Some of it is coaching. Some of it is injuries (which is usually a mix of training, turf, technique & luck). Some might be locker room - how many true leaders do we have that drive up energy, competitive spirit and drive to win (as opposed to good guys, community assets or thin-skinned egos)? Stepping back we still do not look, feel or act like a winning organisation. We lack edge and fire on and off the field.
If you were going to build a team, where would you start? You start with the GM and HC. From there the HC picks his Coaching Staff. Then players are brought in.
You can only do so much with the players you have. However what is lost is where you build from first and foremost. QB, Oline and Dline.
Coughlin had marginal players at Linebacker and in the Secondary with a few solid players mixed in. No elite Receivers but some very good complimentary pieces. One decent TE and the rest suboptimal. The RBs were very good complimented by the Oline. The point is that you can't have great players at every position but good coaching gets the most out of the players and gets them to compliment each other. AJ Brown was a good receiver but became a great receiver with Hurts. Matt Stafford was a good 10-15 QB and became an Elite QB in LA. CMC is a consistent, healthy elite RB today. The Raiders under Pierce are a different team.
So you need both, but you start with the GM on down. Schoen and Daboll are tied at the hip. Can they work together bring in the right talent? So far Schoen has failed to upgrade both Lines. He's a few players away on both fronts and that has impacted the team. It's killed the Offense and shackled three QBs. Can Daboll get the most out of a well and properly staffed team? He hasn't shown that yet. He should have replaced his Oline and Special Teams Coach before the season began. His Offense is extremely predictable and they find themselves in third down Hell where they can't convert.
It's pretty bleak right now for this regime and a lot of changes need to be be made. Let's see how the fans support Daboll at home against a desperate Eagles team.
Ed, I really don't know if Daboll and Schoen are the right people or not. What I dont want is to draft a QB this year. Keep Daboll and Schoen and then fire them after 1 year of a new QB. Changing regimes for yesr 2 of a QB usually doesn't work too well for the QB.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 26, 2023, 12:32:19 PMEd, I really don't know if Daboll and Schoen are the right people or not. What I dont want is to draft a QB this year. Keep Daboll and Schoen and then fire them after 1 year of a new QB. Changing regimes for yesr 2 of a QB usually doesn't work too well for the QB.
I think Daboll and Schoen have a couple years minimum.
If the Pats win this week, it's possible for either Drake Maye or Daniels to be there when they pick. Would Schoen pass on either of those QBs? If he does, how will that go down?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 26, 2023, 12:56:42 PMIf the Pats win this week, it's possible for either Drake Maye or Daniels to be there when they pick. Would Schoen pass on either of those QBs? If he does, how will that go down?
Obviously we are only dealing in speculation here, but I struggle to see any way that happens short of them both having some injury or scandal be revealed that we don't know about today.
Admittedly it's totally possible that they did their due diligence on both of these players and came away with the view that neither is worthy of a top 10 pick, but given how bad the QB room is and given that you don't get these opportunities every year, I'd be shocked if they didn't take a shot. I'll be surprised if they even pass on Daniels.
If we get to pick #4 let's say Daniels or Maye is available. It all depends if the FO likes McCarthy more. Then it's possible for a trade down a couple spots, and get some more assets. I want as many turns at the wheel as possible. Any OL taken has to have a mean streak. I want to evolve into a belligerent, nasty team that no one wants to play.
Definitely lack of talent mainly at QB, Oline. I assume that the D would improve with a better offense.
A much better QB will solve most of the Giants issues imo.
Quote from: sooners56 on December 26, 2023, 01:18:22 PMDefinitely lack of talent mainly at QB, Oline. I assume that the D would improve with a better offense.
A much better QB will solve most of the Giants issues imo.
I think playing defense with an offense that is top half of the league is much easier than a bottom 5 offense.
It's a point that I think is missed by many.
I think we can all agree our team doesn't have a lot of talent, but we sure aren't devoid of it. I feel what talent we do have is just not being used in the right ways.
Let's look at our WRs. We draft a speedster in Hyatt yet he never saw the ball one time in yesterday's game. He was, what, a @2 pick and he starts and goes games without ever touching the ball. Speed is the name of the game today and if our OC can't find a way of using this speed, then why did we draft Hyatt in the first place? I don't care if he is as dumb as a rock, just find a way to use his speed in our offensive game plan. Except for Campbell and we just don't know what he has to offer, most of our WRs can catch the ball when thrown to them, but we still need a big-time #1 guy. Waller was thought to be that, but another wasted big-time FA pick-up at WR. Why can't we get this right?
Most know I wanted the Giants to draft Simmons, especially as he was touted as a pass rusher, yet he is used mostly in coverage schemes. Personally, and it is just my opinion, with the right coach he can be almost as effective as Parsons. He is a unique talent and needs the right system, but he can rush the passer, yet he is rarely used that way.
I won't even mention our OL coach and our ST coach because there is simply nothing to say about coaches who just fail at their jobs yet continue to have jobs.
Another offense problem, we just continue to run Barkley off tackle, over and over and over again. Is he immune to something different, like a quick pitch? or a quick slant over the middle?
Does anyone else think Thibs is a bit overrated? Sure he is an exceptional talent, but where the hell is he in big games? Interesting sat they posted, he has 6 games without a sack and yesterday he didn't even have a tackle. Is this on him or coaching?
I will say the Ravens D looks pretty good post year 2 of Wink Martindale. I'd say most would agree they have always had talent so switching to a new coach didn't affect the outcome.
https://x.com/JeffEBonham/status/1739668470776643893?s=20
I don't like these 'either/or' scenarios. It's never one or the other. It's both.
Quote from: sooners56 on December 26, 2023, 01:32:39 PMI will say the Ravens D looks pretty good post year 2 of Wink Martindale. I'd say most would agree they have always had talent so switching to a new coach didn't affect the outcome.
Hard to draw conclusions given only 2 starters are left from Wink's D.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 26, 2023, 02:13:28 PMHard to draw conclusions given only 2 starters are left from Wink's D.
This is fair but it also shows it doesn't take half a decade to rebuild a unit. This is why it's so frustrating to me that we keep talking about how many years it will take to rebuild this or that unit when other teams can rebuild and are competitive within a year or two.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 26, 2023, 02:24:42 PMThis is fair but it also shows it doesn't take half a decade to rebuild a unit. This is why it's so frustrating to me that we keep talking about how many years it will take to rebuild this or that unit when other teams can rebuild and are competitive within a year or two.
I definitely agree with that. I think there is a bevy of reasons the Giants have not been able to turn it around like that.
Yes