Former GM Mike Lombardi is friends with both Wink and Daboll. Mike shares the insights that those friendships bring and his insights as a former GM and a student of leadership.
Go to 28:40 to hear Mike talk about Wink and NYG.
Here is the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/65lqOk61I3j7nFQEoLpwyu
FWIW the Giant saga is at 28:40, not 21:40.
I thought that was a pretty one-sided analysis by Lombardi.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 02:24:20 PMFWIW the Giant saga is at 28:40, not 21:40.
I thought that was a pretty one-sided analysis by Lombardi.
Rich,
Thanks for the heads up; I fixed the time. Mike wasn't lying about being friends with both men. Daboll even called Mike to ask him about his potential choice between the Dolphins job and the Giants job.
So, while it may seem one-sided, Mike did explain why he said the things he did, and he certainly doesn't have any reason to put Daboll in a bad light.
I thought Mike's point about Wink fighting for his guys was an interesting one.
Just as an aside, as a Sopranos nut, I will say I do very much enjoy Lombardi's constant Sopranos references and comparisons to real-life situations. He does a very good job with a lot of those.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 10, 2024, 02:56:04 PMJust as an aside, as a Sopranos nut, I will say I do very much enjoy Lombardi's constant Sopranos references and comparisons to real-life situations. He does a very good job with a lot of those.
I never saw the Sopranos, but Mike's references have me tempted to check it out.
Pretty one sided in my view. And clearly, he feels Daboll is at fault here.
Now, Daboll gets another shot with another for the most part new staff.
If he fails, he will be gone after next season.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 10, 2024, 03:44:57 PMPretty one sided in my view. And clearly, he feels Daboll is at fault here.
Now, Daboll gets another shot with another for the most part new staff.
If he fails, he will be gone after next season.
and
@AZGiantFan I have been thinking, what exactly do you mean by "one-sided"? Are you saying Mike was biased or that Mike clearly is assigning the majority of the blame to Daboll?
My fear is enough people inside and outside our building across the league will see it as Mike does making it a bigger shadow over Daboll than Wink.
These are the opinions that matter not ours as they will determine the motivation of those already here and influence the quality of players and coaches we can attract.
I personally do not give a stuff how it plays out for Wink as he is now history but how it plays out for Daboll really matters for our future.
Neither the owners nor Schoen can be pleased with how this mess blew up so publicly, potentially complicating matters moving forward. It is bad management and they will need to think about if and how they could have helped avoid it just as much as Daboll will need to do some soul-searching.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:48:53 PMand @AZGiantFan
I have been thinking, what exactly do you mean by "one-sided"? Are you saying Mike was biased or that Mike clearly is assigning the majority of the blame to Daboll?
The latter.
I think Lombardi isn't accounting for the difficulty in managing Wink's character.
Typically, the truth lays in the middle.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:48:53 PMand @AZGiantFan
I have been thinking, what exactly do you mean by "one-sided"? Are you saying Mike was biased or that Mike clearly is assigning the majority of the blame to Daboll?
Both. He weights every issue in Wink's favor and gives almost no regard to the idea that the head coach is the head coach and subordinate coaches should be subordinate, not insubordinate.
Wink hasn't officially quit and he hasn't officially been fired, so as of now, he is still our DC.
What happens if he decides he wants to stay, then that would leave Dabill no choice but to dire him and would be free to go where ever he wants.
It's a game of chicken
Quote from: londonblue on January 10, 2024, 04:00:02 PMMy fear is enough people inside and outside our building across the league will see it as Mike does making it a bigger shadow over Daboll than Wink.
These are the opinions that matter not ours as they will determine the motivation of those already here and influence the quality of players and coaches we can attract.
I personally do not give a stuff how it plays out for Wink as he is now history but how it plays out for Daboll really matters for our future.
Neither the owners nor Schoen can be pleased with how this mess blew up so publicly, potentially complicating matters moving forward. It is bad management and they will need to think about if and how they could have helped avoid it just as much as Daboll will need to do some soul-searching.
Excellent and well laid out point.
Quote from: LennG on January 10, 2024, 06:08:47 PMWink hasn't officially quit and he hasn't officially been fired, so as of now, he is still our DC.
What happens if he decides he wants to stay, then that would leave Dabill no choice but to dire him and would be free to go where ever he wants.
It's a game of chicken
Len,
They resolved the issue. Wink has his freedom and the Giants don't have to pay him.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 05:52:25 PMBoth. He weights every issue in Wink's favor and gives almost no regard to the idea that the head coach is the head coach and subordinate coaches should be subordinate, not insubordinate.
That seems about what it boils down to. Wink saw himself as co-HC and that led to his exits both here and in Baltimore.
I think the thing that really struck me was Mike counciling his friend Daboll to reign it in on the sidelines. This is in reference to Wink objecting to being dressed down on the sidelines by Daboll.
Can you imagine dealing with this shitshow in the middle of the season?
The world of social media and couch juries has come a long way and far removed from Hufnagal.
You either follow leadership or you're out the door. Rightly or wrongly that's the way it is.
Unless of course your boss is a bully or something along those lines. There's one captain, one vision. Buy in or ship out.
The Giants D were hardly excellent last season. I am sure that level of productivity can be replaced with relative ease.
The guy has been in the league for 19 years and never been a head coach. That's pretty telling.
I initially supported Daboll when hired but to be honest, even before the Wink issue I had soured somewhat on Daboll.
He is a control freak and not particularly personable. His results on the offense have been horrendous. That was supposed to have been his specialty.
We can do better than a "drag along" from the Bills by Schoen.
Schoen needs to part with his old buddy and organize a real HC search.
Vrabel is available and would be a significant upgrade in my opinion.
Id hate to see Vrable joining the Commanders or Eagles (I think Siriani is doomed after this coming Monday night. the Eagles have been in reverse for half the season).
Whatever Im a Giants fan to the core and hope somehow this all works out.
Likely Daboll is now free to run the team as he sees fit. Lets see his end product come September. Should be an eventful off season. Has been so far.
I wonder what the players are feeling right now.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 10, 2024, 04:00:49 PMThe latter.
I think Lombardi isn't accounting for the difficulty in managing Wink's character.
Typically, the truth lays in the middle.
Apologies if I quote myself, but I feel I'd like to explain this a little better;
What I mean by the above is that mistakes were made on both sides, more specifically; You don't yell at your DC in the middle of a game. BD's demeanor has been less than ideal. This is not how you should manage your people. I get the frustration, the pressure, anything you want, but there are ways and places where you can confront Wink directly, and that's certainly not the right way of doing it.
BUT: Does that give Wink the right to do what he's done? Absolutely not. As mentioned before, BD is the Head Coach. Period. He is your boss. You cannot start a feud from within the core of the team and start undermining the HC.
At the end of the day, I think BD understood that he made a mistake and tried to fix it. I believe that BD did more than Wink to fix the situation. And Wink had no interest whatsoever in getting things fixed between the parties. Wink's behaviour was equally wrong as DB's, but somewhat just more childish, because one way of improving is understanding where you were wrong and admit it. Doesn't look like Wink is capable of doing this.
So my view is that JS supported BD, as he should. And so should we, I think.
I agree GG. The boss is the boss, right or wrong. You can have your say. You can have your principles. You can ultimately vote with your feet if you cannot find middle ground. Providing you do so privately and professionally.
I get that sports are 'emotional' but in any senior leadership position in any aspect of life if you cannot manage your own emotions you cannot manage anything or anyone. You will always be a passenger, even a prisoner, of your own impulses and moods.
The jury is still out on whether Daboll can grow into a true leader becoming more than just 'talented' but erratic. I think the verdict is now in that Wink never will.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 11, 2024, 12:22:20 AMYou either follow leadership or you're out the door. Rightly or wrongly that's the way it is.
Unless of course your boss is a bully or something along those lines. There's one captain, one vision. Buy in or ship out.
The Giants D were hardly excellent last season. I am sure that level of productivity can be replaced with relative ease.
The guy has been in the league for 19 years and never been a head coach. That's pretty telling.
It's funny that you used the word "leadership". Being in charge means you get to tell others what to do. Leadership is how well you do that. A poor leader forces others to listen by virtue of their authority. A good leader has people agreeable to what is asked of them. A great leader has people wanting to follow them.
I think it's fair to say that Wink is anarchic, don't you think?
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 11, 2024, 06:45:43 AMI think it's fair to say that Wink is anarchic, don't you think?
I think Wink could be described as an anti-hero. The players love him because he listens to them, treats them well, and puts them in positions to succeed. However, he also isn't the dutiful follower in the bigger picture. He will be a pain in the backside to manage because he has a way of doing things and isn't one to go for the Kumbaya management fads. Managing a guy like Wink takes some management talent, patience/tolerance, and a constant reminder that it's about the big picture, but guys like this tend to get results.
It is a fair point on leadership Mighty and you will note I make the point about Daboll needing to develop in this area. However, sooner or later guys like Wink always wear out their welcome. A good leader can channel them effectively for a while but if they do not learn and adapt there always comes a point where effort and reward no longer align, particularly if you find you are wasting time controlling a senior, experienced guy that would be better spent inspiring, developing and mentoring younger future leaders.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 11, 2024, 06:45:43 AMI think it's fair to say that Wink is anarchic, don't you think?
What I find poisonous, organizationally, and of much more concern long range, is that Wink thought he could get away with undermining Daboll because he had the ear and support of the owner. I don't know if he actually did, but he seems to have thought that he did. And I don't think he could have gotten that impression out of thin air.
Quote from: londonblue on January 11, 2024, 10:30:00 AMIt is a fair point on leadership Mighty and you will note I make the point about Daboll needing to develop in this area. However, sooner or later guys like Wink always wear out their welcome. A good leader can channel them effectively for a while but if they do not learn and adapt there always comes a point where effort and reward no longer align, particularly if you find you are wasting time controlling a senior, experienced guy that would be better spent inspiring, developing and mentoring younger future leaders.
Neal,
I agree with this point. However, I am also mindful that Wink's biggest point of contention is being publicly dressed down on the sidelines. I don't think, in this day and age, such a request by Wink is not unreasonable.
To your point, as I have gotten older, I have found myself "wasting" less time trying to control the people under me. I have reached a point where I evaluate the people in terms of their net contributions towards an organization's goals. If it's positive I tend to work with their quirks and issues, if it's not (and I can do something about it) then I work to part ways with them. When I was younger, I would waste time trying to control people (over what, in the big picture, were minor issues), but not any longer.
I can appreciate that not everyone will take my approach, and it was Daboll's right to part ways with Wink. What I will say is non-negotiable was the terrible way this all went down. Frankly, if Daboll had decided to let Wink go, he should have simply let him go. His name should have been announced along with T-Mac and Bobby Johnson. The whole game playing about, "Oh, I want him back, and I expect him back." firing his key coaches to make him quit was a huge mistake, in my opinion, and only served to sully Daboll and the organization.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 10:56:12 AMNeal,
I agree with this point. However, I am also mindful that Wink's biggest point of contention is being publicly dressed down on the sidelines. I don't think, in this day and age, such a request by Wink is not unreasonable.
To my knowledge, Martindale wasn't publicly dressed down by Harbaugh in Baltimore. Yet, he wore out his welcome there.
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 11:12:12 AMTo my knowledge, Martindale wasn't publicly dressed down by Harbaugh in Baltimore. Yet, he wore out his welcome there.
Tim,
The reports from Baltimore are pretty clear. The parting of the ways was truly mutual and totally amicable. I posted a report of that departure from the Athletic (which has high-level quality reporting). So we really can't say if Wink did or didn't wear out his welcome.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:17:57 AMTim,
The reports from Baltimore are pretty clear. The parting of the ways was truly mutual and totally amicable. I posted a report of that departure from the Athletic (which has high-level quality reporting). So we really can't say if Wink did or didn't wear out his welcome.
He had a year left on his contract. The Ravens wanted to get a new DC. He could have stayed in Baltimore. Why take the same job and start over with another team? There was a reason Harbaugh didn't want to keep him. He's just classy enough not to say.
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 11:26:03 AMHe had a year left on his contract. The Ravens wanted to get a new DC. He could have stayed in Baltimore. Why take the same job and start over with another team? There was a reason Harbaugh didn't want to keep him. He's just classy enough not to say.
The report said Wink wouldn't agree to more years on his contact. To answer your question, Wink's goal was an HC job. Turning around an anemic defense would generate more interest in him than just more years in Baltimore, where he has already earned the reputation of being a good DC. Wink's plan did seem to generate more interest, as he did get another HC interview last off season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 11:36:34 AMThe report said Wink wouldn't agree to more years on his contact. To answer your question, Wink's goal was an HC job. Turning around an anemic defense would generate more interest in him than just more years in Baltimore, where he has already earned the reputation of being a good DC. Wink's plan did seem to generate more interest, as he did get another HC interview last off season.
The report also said Baltimore was ready to move on from him.
I get that you have your eggs in the Wink basket but he's far from a victim in this.
Seems to me that Dabs showed Winks the same level of courtesy and professionalism that Winks showed Dabs all year and he couldn't handle it.
What coordinator thinks it's entirely appropriate to abandon the game plan, before the game even started and without consulting the head coach? What do you think that did to Daboll's authority in the locker room. Even worse when confronted with it by a rightfully angry Daboll he tells him to go pound sand in front of the team.
Yet this clown Lombardi thinks it's outrageous that Daboll didn't show Martindale the courtesy of telling him he was firing his best friend.
IMHO that's nothing more than a case of FAFO, and his Sopranos analogy is idiotic. Somehow Dabs was supposed to get rid of Wilks and make everybody think it wasn't his doing by being dishonest. Screw that noise. A real leader takes action and then owns it. The more I hear from this guy the less respect that I had for him and it wasn't much.
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2024, 11:41:01 AMThe report also said Baltimore was ready to move on from him.
I get that you have your eggs in the Wink basket but he's far from a victim in this.
Tim,
I wouldn't say my eggs are in the Wink basket. My preference was for him not to go because I don't see a real opportunity to upgrade, and you are losing critical continuity. That said, it doesn't look like Wink was a saint in all of this.
My eggs are in the basket of I have serious concerns about Daboll's leadership and management ability. Admittedly some issues I have are more preference, but Daboll appears to have violated some cardinal rules of leadership and management.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 12:52:45 PMTim,
I wouldn't say my eggs are in the Wink basket. My preference was for him not to go because I don't see a real opportunity to upgrade, and you are losing critical continuity. That said, it doesn't look like Wink was a saint in all of this.
My eggs are in the basket of I have serious concerns about Daboll's leadership and management ability. Admittedly some issues I have are more preference, but Wink appears to have violated some cardinal rules of leadership and management.
I guess that's the best I'm gonna get out of you =)) =D>
I, too, have concerns about Daboll and how he's going to bounce back from this season. I do think he's the right man for the job. He's undoubtedly had quite a bit of adversity to learn and grow from. I trust that he and his advisors will evaluate the season honestly and make the necessary changes to be better in all areas.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 09:18:25 AMI think Wink could be described as an anti-hero. The players love him because he listens to them, treats them well, and puts them in positions to succeed. However, he also isn't the dutiful follower in the bigger picture. He will be a pain in the backside to manage because he has a way of doing things and isn't one to go for the Kumbaya management fads. Managing a guy like Wink takes some management talent, patience/tolerance, and a constant reminder that it's about the big picture, but guys like this tend to get results.
It doesn't sound like Mckiney or Thibs would agree