I hate the 6th pick in this upcoming draft...I really do. It's not the because of where we pick, it's the fact that the players we need will probably be gone when we pick. IMO there are only 5 players that are worth the 6th overall pick for the Giants. Any other player we pick at 6, just feels like a reach.
If you were the GM of the Giants. What would trigger you to trade out of the 6th overall pick?
For me it would be when these 5 guys were off the board
Drake Maye
Marvin Harrison Jr.
Jayden Daniels
Malik Nabers
Caleb Williams (I think he might be a bust, but if he falls at 6,I dont want to be the GM that passed on a guy that could be a franchise QB)
Before any of you guys tell me "but there are good tackles"...yes true, but the top 2 are LTs and we already have a very good one. The transition from LT to RT in the NFL isn't as easy as one might think. Just draft a forking player that already been playing RT in college. At pick 10 to 20 JC Latham makes a ton of sense, he a true Right Tackle. I wouldnt be mad if we got him with the 10th pick, but 6 is a reach.
Makes sense to me. Another good topic for discussion. :ok:
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 07:09:02 PMI hate the 6th pick in this upcoming draft...I really do. It's not the because of where we pick, it's the fact that the players we need will probably be gone when we pick. IMO there are only 5 players that are worth the 6th overall pick for the Giants. Any other player we pick at 6, just feels like a reach.
If you were the GM of the Giants. What would trigger you to trade out of the 6th overall pick?
For me it would be when these 5 guys were off the board
Drake Maye
Marvin Harrison Jr.
Jayden Daniels
Malik Nabers
Caleb Williams (I think he might be a bust, but if he falls at 6,I dont want to be the GM that passed on a guy that could be a franchise QB)
Before any of you guys tell me "but there are good tackles"...yes true, but the top 2 are LTs and we already have a very good one. The transition from LT to RT in the NFL isn't as easy as one might think. Just draft a forking player that already been playing RT in college. At pick 10 to 20 JC Latham makes a ton of sense, he a true Right Tackle. I wouldnt be mad if we got him with the 10th pick, but 6 is a reach.
If you like him at 10 you take him at 6. Nobody can rank players that well.
Quote from: Philosophers on February 17, 2024, 07:49:35 PMIf you like him at 10 you take him at 6. Nobody can rank players that well.
Joseph, normally I would agree with you. " If you like him you take him", but not in this draft. Why? Because at best JC Latham would be an ok pick at 10 anything earlier is a reach. aside from the 5 guys I mentioned, there are Joe Alt and Olumuyiwa Fashanu. Both are franchise Left Tackles. Had Olumuyiwa Fashanu came out in 2023 he would have been a top 5 pick. As of now many have Joe Alt as the #1 Left Tackle. There are many teams that would love to have either one. A trade back with a team like Atlanta who could use a LT makes sense. No way in hell does a team take JC Latham before Fashanu or Alt...no way
With the exception of Harrison, I trade back if those QBs are gone, but not to a team that needs a QB. I trade to a team who wants Nabers and only back so I get McCarthy and then another few picks. There are almost 20 real good receivers in this draft. The Giants can win with a second or third round receiver. They cannot win unless they get an upgrade at QB.
When trading back there has to be a calculation as to among a group of players, at least one will be there for you of value in your BPA. At that point, with so many needs, one has to fit.
That's my ideal draft at least as of mid February.
I think in the 6-8 range the Giants have a ton of options to get an elite talent.
JJ as our new QB1 in a trade down to #8 along With Polk, Benson, and Burton to pair with Hyatt and Wandale is a really exciting young offensive core. Then you also grab 2 studs on defense, an elite Safety to replace Mckinney, and Trotter Jr to pair with Okereke to give you one of the best young linebacking groups. Plus a talented tackle who could step in and be swing and an edge to develop later
Couple that with 2 guard signings, a DE, and a #2 and #3 Edge in FA and I think this is a playoff team next year or at minimum 8-9 with a ton of young talent to look forward to the future. Especially with the extra cap from Mccarthy being on a rookie deal.
I think that is how you can flip the Giants as an offense and a team in one offseason.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 08:28:08 PMWhen trading back there has to be a calculation as to among a group of players, at least one will be there for you of value in your BPA. At that point, with so many needs, one has to fit.
Ed, I agree. Thats a risk you have to take and be able to deal with the consequences. Having said that...I think the chances of JC Latham being there in the mid-first are a lot more likely than McCarthy being there in the mid-first. As the GM...if my 5 guys are gone, I am moving back and getting as many draft picks as possible, if my boy is gone then I am taking the best player I can get and defiantly looking for a guy that played exclusively at a RT in college and grabbing him with one of my two 2nd round picks.
It depends on compensation and how far you have to drop. This team desperately needs high end talent that creates mismatches. Your chances of grabbing an elite player drops quickly once you get outside of the top 10. Nabors, Odunze and Alt are high upside players and will be available at 6.
Quote from: madbadger on February 17, 2024, 08:51:00 PMIt depends on compensation and how far you have to drop. This team desperately needs high end talent that creates mismatches. Your chances of grabbing an elite player drops quickly once you get outside of the top 10. Nabors, Odunze and Alt are high upside players and will be available at 6.
According to Dave's math (and I think he is right)...if we were to slide back to Atlanta...swap thier 8th for our 6th...we would get their 2nd round pick 47th, but I would still ask for their 199th pick (6th)
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 08:57:39 PMAccording to Dave's math (and I think he is right)...if we were to slide back to Atlanta...swap thier 8th for our 6th...we would get their 2nd round pick 47th, but I would still ask for their 199th pick (6th)
Keep an Eye on Minnesota and Oakland who will be looking to move up for a QB. I can see both of them coveting JJ.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 09:12:34 PMKeep an Eye on Minnesota and Oakland who will be looking to move up for a QB. I can see both of them coveting JJ.
And Atlanta.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 09:12:34 PMKeep an Eye on Minnesota and Oakland who will be looking to move up for a QB. I can see both of them coveting JJ.
I agree and if we trade with either team, then for our Right Tackle:
JC Latham
Taliese Fuaga
Tyler Guyton
And let's not forget, the Bengals are in huge need of a LT. The must protect their prized QB. Getting Olumuyiwa Fashanu or Joe Alt with our 6th overall pick would set them up to be a powerhouse in the AFC and we would get a lot of picks sliding to pick 18
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 09:12:34 PMKeep an Eye on Minnesota and Oakland who will be looking to move up for a QB. I can see both of them coveting JJ.
Schoen is going to have to be savvy. It's gonna be a wild draft.
Quote from: katkavage on February 17, 2024, 09:35:57 PMSchoen is going to have to be savvy. It's gonna be a wild draft.
I wouldn't rule out a trade down and a trade up for some team.
I think if the top 5 started to shake out that way, there would be a mad rush to trade ahead of us to secure McCarthy, which means out of those 5 would end up at our pick.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 17, 2024, 08:47:37 PMThat's my ideal draft at least as of mid February.
I think in the 6-8 range the Giants have a ton of options to get an elite talent.
JJ as our new QB1 in a trade down to #8 along With Polk, Benson, and Burton to pair with Hyatt and Wandale is a really exciting young offensive core. Then you also grab 2 studs on defense, an elite Safety to replace Mckinney, and Trotter Jr to pair with Okereke to give you one of the best young linebacking groups. Plus a talented tackle who could step in and be swing and an edge to develop later
Couple that with 2 guard signings, a DE, and a #2 and #3 Edge in FA and I think this is a playoff team next year or at minimum 8-9 with a ton of young talent to look forward to the future. Especially with the extra cap from Mccarthy being on a rookie deal.
I think that is how you can flip the Giants as an offense and a team in one offseason.
I really appreciate all your college insights. I know you have reasons for not drafting o line early. I can respect that. Personally, I'd be disappointed if we don't grab more o line talent before the second sound closes
I just dont see how they trade down when Schoen and Daboll could very well be fired next year if this team wins like 4 games.
if they truly do covet.. JJ MCCarthy (vomit) then I suppose we could trade down to the 12-14 range and get him.
Based on draft history and success/failure statistics, the number of our needs and also this draft not having more than a couple of clear blue chippers, I would actively invite trade offers.
It would be really good if we could get another second for picking 5-6 spots lower and take a OT JC Latham.
Imagine if the opportunity is there for another trade down to around the 20th and grab Ladd McConkey, plus at least two other 2nd rounders ( 4 seconds) to add the needed potential upgrades. Getting that dynamic Receiver, two offensive linemen, an DT and a pass rusher, filling the biggest holes in just two rounds!!!
The last time we traded back we lost out on MIcah Parsons and I could be mistaken, but while Alt played last year as LT , didn't he play some right tackle at Notrte Dame before last year ? Unless we upgrade our OL , we will be going nowhere . Drafting a QB without up grading our OL greatly is a mistake .
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 08:50:04 PMEd, I agree. Thats a risk you have to take and be able to deal with the consequences. Having said that...I think the chances of JC Latham being there in the mid-first are a lot more likely than McCarthy being there in the mid-first. As the GM...if my 5 guys are gone, I am moving back and getting as many draft picks as possible, if my boy is gone then I am taking the best player I can get and defiantly looking for a guy that played exclusively at a RT in college and grabbing him with one of my two 2nd round picks.
I really like the idea of trading back, but there needs to be something at 6 that someone behind you is willing to trade up to get. I hope one of the qb's is there at 6 that someone wants and would consider moving up. Pick up the phone and consider how much more value you can get by trading out. We need way too much to consider taking a qb at 6. If you can't trade out take the BPA.
There really isn't a right or wrong answer on trading back as a matter of principle. It is entirely dependent on the specifics of the situation. I wouldn't be blindly for or against it without having more information. How far am I moving back? What exactly am I getting in return? What players are on the board now that I'll be passing up on if I move down? How many players would I be happy to draft in the target range of where I'm moving to? If I'm getting a second round pick, what do I think of the second round range? And so on.
The Giants lack top end players, and that is no secret. Getting an elite difference-maker at 6th overall would certainly help our team. On the other hand, the Giants are bereft of talent and depth all over the roster, so getting a chunk of valuable draft capital in exchange for just one pick could also make sense. It really depends on all the specifics of the situation. I am neither patently for or against moving down without knowing more.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on February 18, 2024, 06:12:05 AMThe last time we traded back we lost out on MIcah Parsons and I could be mistaken, but while Alt played last year as LT , didn't he play some right tackle at Notrte Dame before last year ? Unless we upgrade our OL , we will be going nowhere . Drafting a QB without up grading our OL greatly is a mistake .
Both drafting a QB and upgrading the Giants OL can be done. It's not one or the other.
My trigger would be a ridiculous offer.
Quote from: gregf on February 17, 2024, 10:05:22 PMI really appreciate all your college insights. I know you have reasons for not drafting o line early. I can respect that. Personally, I'd be disappointed if we don't grab more o line talent before the second sound closes
I completely get that 100%. Schoen has tried to draft oline talent to fix the line in multiple years that hasn't panned out. So instead of drafting and waiting for them to develop I'm all in on grabbing talent to immediately fix the line now. So finding 2 guards to plug and play plus a swing would have us look like this potentially.
LT Thomas
LG Kevin Dotson
C JMS
RG Robert Hunt
RT Neal With us bringing long time swing from the Raiders Jermaine Eluemunor over with his old OLine coach who is plug n play if Neal fails.
Those 3 moves and we will have a complete rebuild and will have finally fixed the line and could focus on fixing the offensive skills and qb in the draft.
Last time the Giants traded down they passed on Pro Bowl pass rusher Micah Parsons and Pro Bowl LT Rashawn Slater
In return they on Toney and Evan Neal (and some miscellaneous lower draft capital)
https://x.com/jcsg03/status/1759206032264294491?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 08:58:44 AMLast time the Giants traded down they passed on Pro Bowl pass rusher Micah Parsons and Pro Bowl LT Rashawn Slater
In return they on Toney and Evan Neal (and some miscellaneous lower draft capital)
Let's hope they learn from their mistakes. But with the draft there are no guarantees. The only way I favor a trade down is if they can't get their QB at six or by trading up. I don't think the receivers they can get at six (unless one is Harrison) will be game changers to the current team especially since there are so many very good receivers in this draft. I'd rather have more picks. Same with tackles. This is a draft full of good tackles.
Quote from: katkavage on February 18, 2024, 09:09:39 AMLet's hope they learn from their mistakes. But with the draft there are no guarantees. The only way I favor a trade down is if they can't get their QB at six or by trading up. I don't think the receivers they can get at six (unless one is Harrison) will be game changers to the current team especially since there are so many very good receivers in this draft. I'd rather have more picks. Same with tackles. This is a draft full of good tackles.
This post demonstrates the other issue with trading down. If you are trading down because you don't think there is any player worth drafting at 6, why on earth would a team trade up???
The reality is trade downs only work when there is a prospect that is worth drafting that the team trading down doesn't need due to their current roster.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 09:17:21 AMThis post demonstrates the other issue with trading down. If you are trading down because you don't think there is any player worth drafting at 6, why on earth would a team trade up???
The reality is trade downs only work when there is a prospect that is worth drafting that the team trading down doesn't need due to their current roster.
They might covet a player (receiver) that you do not. Plenty of reasons for it. Like I said, the receiver pool this year is very very deep. For a receiver to be effective he needs a QB. Giants don't have a top QB to work with a potentially great receiver. Get that first.
Quote from: katkavage on February 18, 2024, 09:20:12 AMThey might covet a player (receiver) that you do not. Plenty of reasons for it. Like I said, the receiver pool this year is very very deep. For a receiver to be effective he needs a QB. Giants don't have a top QB to work with a potentially great receiver. Get that first.
You do appreciate if the draft is deep in WRs there is little incentive for any team to trade up, right?
As for order players are drafted, having a solid O-line and at least one quality receiving target greatly enhances a team's chances for success when they do acquire a QB
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 09:25:24 AMYou do appreciate if the draft is deep in WRs there is little incentive for any team to trade up, right?
As for order players are drafted, having a solid O-line and at least one quality receiving target greatly enhances a team's chances for success when they dQuote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 09:25:24 AMYou do appreciate if the draft is deep in WRs there is little incentive for any team to trade up, right?
As for order players are drafted, having a solid O-line and at least one quality receiving target greatly enhances a team's chances for success when they do acquire a QB
I just said it was but if they covet one in particular like the genius Gettleman did with Toney. Same with offensive tackles. Lots of them. Also free agency can help in both areas. The bottom line is the Giants go nowhere until the QB position is fixed.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 08:50:04 PMEd, I agree. Thats a risk you have to take and be able to deal with the consequences. Having said that...I think the chances of JC Latham being there in the mid-first are a lot more likely than McCarthy being there in the mid-first. As the GM...if my 5 guys are gone, I am moving back and getting as many draft picks as possible, if my boy is gone then I am taking the best player I can get and defiantly looking for a guy that played exclusively at a RT in college and grabbing him with one of my two 2nd round picks.
I'm doing the same thing to the the theme "Fix the damn line, once and for all!!!"
If you are going to drop and get a nice addition of picks, this draft and next, you are using this draft's capital to fix the line AND pick yourself a BPA in the range you dropped to.
On the other hand, if Schoen has a conviction at pick six (6), that he's willing to put his neck out for, then the expectation is the rest of his draft is planned with contingencies to ensure the Giants have improved their overall talent and, with free agency, can narrow the gap between them and Dallas and Philadelphia, and soon to be Washington whom we can assume will have no place to go but up.
But, for heaven's sake, fix the damn line!!! Please!!!
Trading back has its own problems because this draft is not deep at all. The drop off after the top 60 prospects is steep and next year's class doesn't look special at all. So what is the purpose of trading back, why are you collecting assets? You should have been collecting assets for this draft not the next.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 18, 2024, 10:11:26 AMTrading back has its own problems because this draft is not deep at all. The drop off after the top 60 prospects is steep and next year's class doesn't look special at all. So what is the purpose of trading back, why are you collecting assets? You should have been collecting assets for this draft not the next.
Add picks next year as well.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 09:25:24 AMYou do appreciate if the draft is deep in WRs there is little incentive for any team to trade up, right?
As for order players are drafted, having a solid O-line and at least one quality receiving target greatly enhances a team's chances for success when they do acquire a QB
I could easily see someone trading up for Bowers or, as others have mentioned, someone like the Bengals trading up for the #1 LT.
This draft is not just QBs and WRs.
I dont see any scenario in which the Giants can trade back unless they are committed to DJ and a top QB prospect is there.
As for me, it wouldn't take much to entice me into trading down. I've only done about a thousand /sarcasm/ mock draft simulations and when I don't trade down, I come away with one stud and a couple "potential" studs, and miss out on fixing a lot of our problems. We need some extra second day picks to do a good job at taking a Giant leap forward
I'm leary of using pick 6 on a QB, or any of the bloated positions (WR's, CB's, etc). First, because the Giants aren't looking to replace Daniel Jones regardless of the handful of fans who are screaming for him to be replaced (it ain't happening, so there's that), and secondly, because the bloated positions can give you a starter that is just as good (perhaps even better) in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...or even later rounds. Thirdly, I believe (and always will) that great teams are built around dominating both sides of the trench. If you don't control the trench, all the game planning in the world can't come up with a winning formula with trick plays, running QBs, etc., to be a consistent winning team. As Butkus said (and echoed by Parcels), "Build the trench and then build around it, the only way to win". I believe it and will take that opinion to the grave with me
With that said, my ideal trade down scenario would be to trade down within the top 12 and pick up another 2nd, and pray that Taliese Fuaga was still on the board, and he'd be my first choice...even at pick 6 if no offers came in. And I wouldn't have him replacing Neal, but playing alongside Neal at RG, and if the bigger, lengthier Neal fails to progress this year, then switch them out. If Fuaga is gone, I'd hope to trade down again, but no further than the mid-20s and getting an extra 2nd. I would then target inside guards, either Jackson Powers-Johnson or Graham Barton (who is almost as good as JGB, but can play RT)
Now, with a couple of extra 2nd rounders, I'd target a defensive lineman, and edge rusher, and another OG like Zak Zinter or Cooper Beebe. As far as ERs go, my favorite in the draft is LB/ER Payton Wilson or LB/ER Edgerran Cooper, with an edge to Wilson. Both roughly the same size, but Wilson an inch taller and 8 lbs heavier at 6-4/238, and faster than Cooper...both are incredible at getting to the quarterback. Wilson however, has a nasty streak that defies what a human can physically do. Wilson had 6 sacks to Cooper's 8 sacks last season. Also, Wilson would be first round pick and top LB/ER in the draft, if not for some serious past medical issues (think Trey Smith a couple of years ago). Cooper is the safer pick, Wilson the better pick if his medicals pass judgement. He's now had two years with zero injuries and he plays as if he has no past injuries. Still, if not for his past injuries, he'd be a first round pick, probably between 15-20
So with the extra picks, we'd get two stud OGs, a stud DLman, and a stud LB/ER. After shoring up the trench, then go for luxury picks like WR, CB, S, RB, etc., and I'd like us to grab one of the two best blocking TEs in the draft (Cade Stover and Breyvan Spann-Ford), both had a PFF blocking score over 90
Players that are my favorites in the draft include OGs' Fuaga, Jackson Powers-Johnson, Graham Barton, Zak Zinter,...DLmen, T'Vondre Sweat, Ruke Orhorhoro, and Maason Smith...LBs' Cooper and Wilson,...TEs Cade Stover and Breyvn Spann-Ford...WRs Malachi Corley, and Ainias Smith...and RBs' Trey Benson, Braelon Allen, and Will Shipley
A write-up on Payton Wilson:
Last season: 6 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 138 tackles, 69 solo tackles
"Bruce Feldman's Freak's List - ranked #48. He wrote, '
The 6-4, 238-pound former North Carolina state champion high school wrestler has vertical-jumped 36 inches, and coaches say he will "easily" run the 40 in the 4.49 to 4.54 range'"
"
The motor of an absolute maniac on every single down" SI Giants
"Payton Wilson appears to have boosted his draft stock this week at the Senior Bowl."
Per NFL Draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah, Wilson is one of the 10 biggest 'winners' from Senior Bowl practices in Mobile this week. Jeremiah said Wilson looked like a "Day 2 prospect" while going through practice this week.
Here's Jeremiah's full analysis on the former NC State star:
From a talent perspective, Wilson looked like a Day 2 pick here in Mobile. He's a huge off-ball linebacker (6-4, 238 pounds), but he showed the ability to run and cover, too. Wilson was a three-sport star in high school in North Carolina, playing lacrosse and earning a state championship in wrestling. There are questions about his durability after he suffered multiple injuries during his early college career, but I see so much to like in his game.
Wilson was finally able to stay healthy in 2023 after battling injuries earlier in this career. A healthy season turned into a remarkable campaign for Wilson and the Wolfpack. Wilson was a unanimous All-American this past season and also took home the Bednarik and Butkus Awards." Saturdayroad.com
Worst case scenario, the Cowboys draft him to pair with Micah Parsons so they have two "hair on fire" guys to stuff RBs and QBs. Here's the Cowboy's analysis (coincidently, the Steelers, Cowboys, and Eagles have done extensive research on him, so I imagine so has the Giants):
The analysts constantly compare him to Ivan Pace, who is a half foot shorter than Wilson, consequently allowing him to be undrafted last year. Yet despite his size, is starring in the NFL as a rookie
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 08:57:39 PMAccording to Dave's math (and I think he is right)...if we were to slide back to Atlanta...swap thier 8th for our 6th...we would get their 2nd round pick 47th, but I would still ask for their 199th pick (6th)
If Atlanta is trading up you can bet it's to take a quarterback as Ridder has proven that he isn't the answer. Doing so would likely cost us McCarthy, a risk I personally wouldn't be willing to take. If we don't come out of this draft with a quarterback I will be really disappointed. We can't go on with Jones at the helm and DeVito isn't the answer even if he provided a nice storyline.
Quote from: madbadger on February 18, 2024, 03:11:10 PMIf Atlanta is trading up you can bet it's to take a quarterback as Ridder has proven that he isn't the answer. Doing so would likely cost us McCarthy, a risk I personally wouldn't be willing to take. If we don't come out of this draft with a quarterback I will be really disappointed. We can't go on with Jones at the helm and DeVito isn't the answer even if he provided a nice storyline.
The question was "What would be your trigger to trade back in the draft?" So, in your case, I would assume you would draft McCarthy with the 6th overall pick. For me, the RT is a major concern, and we are stuck with Jones this year. For me I would trade back and address the line and the other multiple holes we have on the team.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 18, 2024, 03:40:31 PMThe question was "What would be your trigger to trade back in the draft?" So, in your case, I would assume you would draft McCarthy with the 6th overall pick. For me, the RT is a major concern, and we are stuck with Jones this year. For me I would trade back and address the line and the other multiple holes we have on the team.
If you truly believe that Jones won't be on the roster after next year you have to make the move now not a year from now. You aren't going to want to head in to the 2025 season with a rookie quarterback if you can help it. I agree that right tackle is clearly an area of weakness but we have multiple second round picks. We could conceivably slide up into the late first round to address that need or stay put if there are a couple of guys you feel comfortable with. Personally I shudder at the thought of having three top seven picks on the offensive line. Frankly I think it's a grotesque misuse of assets.