I was listening to the Giants Insider podcast this morning (one of the Giants' mouthpiece reporters)
The topic of those two linemen from the 2022 draft class (Eze rnd 3 and McKethen rnd 5)
Biz repeated they weren't "busts" but that they appeared to be backups rather than starters.
If these two often-injured O-linemen prove to be nothing more than backups, would you consider them failed picks by Schoen?
Ezeudu, absolutely is a failed pick. You shouldn't have 3rd rounders that don't start unless they play a key role as a 3rd WR or nickel CB & see action 60% of snaps anyway.
McKethan? Nah, he was a long shot to be anything.
Quote from: UKGiantsFan on February 23, 2024, 09:44:06 AMEzeudu, absolutely is a failed pick. You shouldn't have 3rd rounders that don't start unless they play a key role as a 3rd WR or nickel CB & see action 60% of snaps anyway.
McKethan? Nah, he was a long shot to be anything.
I think what made the Ezeudu bust worse was when NYG drafted him, most were like, "Who?". Ezeudu wasn't projected to be drafted that high. If you are going to do your own thing in terms of how you value players, you really need to get it right, or you just look incompetent.
Plus, both of these picks were from a college team that was considered to have a very poor line. It would be like NFL teams raiding the Giant's O-line roster (minus Thomas) with big-money FA contracts. You want to acquire successful players, not unsuccessful ones
I don't see McKethan worthy of more than the practice squad. Ezeudu might have a comeback with better coaching but they need to decide where he plays and work on those skills. I would have hoped that his offseason training program focused on that. I see him as a backup and not a starter so both these were failed picks. As Ceri said, a third round pick should be a starter.
I think Ezeudu should get reps at swing all offseason.
But that was the covid draft and their first season so I'm not going to be too harsh on it.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 23, 2024, 10:33:36 AMI think Ezeudu should get reps at swing all offseason.
But that was the covid draft and their first season so I'm not going to be too harsh on it.
I thought the Toney draft was the Covid draft. By the time the next draft rolled around most of the restrictions had been lifted or there were workarounds
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 23, 2024, 10:34:36 AMI thought the Toney draft was the Covid draft. By the time the next draft rolled around most of the restrictions had been lifted or there were workarounds
Pretty sure they did all interviews and everything through video still during that draft.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 23, 2024, 09:37:24 AMI was listening to the Giants Insider podcast this morning (one of the Giants' mouthpiece reporters)
The topic of those two linemen from the 2022 draft class (Eze rnd 3 and McKethen rnd 5)
Biz repeated they weren't "busts" but that they appeared to be backups rather than starters.
If these two often-injured O-linemen prove to be nothing more than backups, would you consider them failed picks by Schoen?
I would be really concerned about Joe Schoen and his staff's ability to assess O line talent. There has to be a real change there based on pretty clear results.
Though I agree with Ceri I'm inclined to give Schoen a "pass" (generally speaking) for one more year (this one).
When he took over, the team was a mess (lack of talent, money and -most important- identity) so in addition to "fighting" 31 other teams in the draft and free agency with a dull sword, they had to make some tough decisions and gambles from the outset, all while attempting to be competitive.
The answer to the question "Where do we start to fix this mess?" was far from clear, and Schoen was a first-time GM so it was inevitable after the "honeymoon" period was over that the fan-base would begin questioning him.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 24, 2024, 08:09:41 AMThough I agree with Ceri I'm inclined to give Schoen a "pass" (generally speaking) for one more year (this one).
When he took over, the team was a mess (lack of talent, money and -most important- identity) so in addition to "fighting" 31 other teams in the draft and free agency with a dull sword, they had to make some tough decisions and gambles from the outset, all while attempting to be competitive.
The answer to the question "Where do we start to fix this mess?" was far from clear, and Schoen was a first-time GM so it was inevitable after the "honeymoon" period was over that the fan-base would begin questioning him.
Bob
I don't know how anyone could not give him a pass. Talk about "drinking from the fire hose", Schoen took over a bad team, in cap hell, and had a few weeks to assess where the Giants were at, to meet the media, hire a head coach, do a deep assessment of ALL the problems facing the team, put together a coaching staff, prepare for the draft (with scouts he never met before), assess cap issues, fix the cap, bring in FAs or letting them walk, travel around the country to see players first hand, attend the Senior Bowl, the combine, and...conduct his first draft as the Giants' new GM
I can't imagine trying to accomplish so much in so little amount of time. Was he the right choice? Absolutely!!!
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 24, 2024, 08:09:41 AMThough I agree with Ceri I'm inclined to give Schoen a "pass" (generally speaking) for one more year (this one).
When he took over, the team was a mess (lack of talent, money and -most important- identity) so in addition to "fighting" 31 other teams in the draft and free agency with a dull sword, they had to make some tough decisions and gambles from the outset, all while attempting to be competitive.
The answer to the question "Where do we start to fix this mess?" was far from clear, and Schoen was a first-time GM so it was inevitable after the "honeymoon" period was over that the fan-base would begin questioning him.
Bob
Bob,
I can't help but feel like it's deja vu all over again.
The last GM (Gettleman) came in with a similar "I need to fix the O-line" plan.
Gettleman drafted G Will Hernandez and signed T Nate Solder and G Patrick Omameh.
Schoen drafted T Evan Neal, G Josh Ezeudu, G Marcus McKethan, and signed G Mark Glowinski.
It appeared neither GM's quick fix solution worked.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 08:27:28 AMBob,
I can't help but feel like it's deja vu all over again.
The last GM (Gettleman) came in with a similar "I need to fix the O-line" plan.
Gettleman drafted G Will Hernandez and signed T Nate Solder and G Kareem Martin.
Schoen drafted T Evan Neal, G Josh Ezeudu, G Marcus McKethan, and signed G Mark Glowinski.
It appeared neither GM's quick fix solution worked.
IMO, there is no real "quick fix" to fixing the line. FAs are band-aids...and very expensive ones if you look at top shelf, and will set you back big time if you get it wrong. No better example than Solder >:( 2
It starts with good drafting and
good coaching of YOUNG players who stick together for a long period of time until they work together as one. Constant change is the death of an offensive line. Neal is a big time talent who has had...I'll be nice..."issues". But his length, athleticism, and strength appear to be star quality. For the time being, he needs to have a RG next to him that he trusts and works with in tandem and it wouldn't hurt to have a big blocking TE to assist him until he's the real deal...knock on wood
Once a tackle produces, defensive coaches will start to use their best pass rushes against the other side of the line. Neal's regression has a lot to do with Thomas' progression. As a rookie, Neal got to see all the pressures that could be finagled by savvy DCs, to get to the QB. And just like with Thomas, once Neal has some success, DCs will look for other weak spots to exploit and suddenly Neal will look great because they are no longer targeting him with everything they got on every single play
I don't think they should automatically put Neal at guard, but if that's the decision of the coaches, then so be it. We have the makings of a line at LT and Center, with a chance (and I think a good chance) at having at top flight RT. We need two quality guards and a swing tackle and a COACH WHO CAN TURN LEMONS INTO LEMONADE
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 24, 2024, 08:45:50 AMFAs are band-aids.
Jolly: That's generally true, unless you follow the rules in the other thread (the one with the 33rd Team link - the title is "Is It Smart For NFL Teams To Build Through Free Agency?"). And those players are very difficult to get at a reasonable price, because everyone knows free agents are generally nothing more than temporary fixes (like you said... band-aids).
So there just won't be a very high degree of likeliness that the Giants will be able to really help themselves in free-agency (regarding guards). The one good ones will essentially have a choice of teams and that probably leaves the Giants out. Although Onwanu is my favorite (and already on an East-Coast cold-weather team) here are the rest of the possibilities who aren't too old:
Kevin Dotson 27 (actually IMO "too old" for a decent-length contract, but a very good player) from Mississippi (Rams)
Robert Hunt 27 (same problem) from Texas (Dolphins)
Jonah Jackson 27 (same problem) from Pennsylvania (Lions) so he's a maybe
Damien Lewis 26 - from Mississippi (Seahawks)
John Simpson 26 - from South Carolina (Ravens)
Mike Onwanu 26 - from Michigan (Patriots) another maybe and my favorite
Ezra Cleveland 25 - from Washington (Jaguars)
Why list the home town? Because it's IMO the one factor that might cause a player to want to play in NY/NJ
Bob
PS. And we still haven't discussed the style of offense their current teams play, and how well each player might fit with the Giants/Daboll/Kafka.
Two FA Linemen helped the Giants win SB's. O'Hara (Cleveland) and McKenzie (Jets).
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 24, 2024, 08:45:50 AMNeal is a big time talent who has had...I'll be nice..."issues". But his length, athleticism, and strength appear to be star quality. For the time being, he needs to have a RG next to him that he trusts and works with in tandem and it wouldn't hurt to have a big blocking TE to assist him until he's the real deal...knock on wood
Neal may have been a big time talent and athletic in college, but he has shown absolutely none of that in the pros. In fact, the complete opposite. He's shown terrible footwork. He's looked painfully slow. He has no idea how to process movement or handle stunts.
If someone needs 2 quality guys on both sides of him just to be passable, then you're just putting a band-aid in the real issue. Neal has shown no ability to play OT at the NFL level.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 24, 2024, 08:45:50 AMI don't think they should automatically put Neal at guard, but if that's the decision of the coaches, then so be it. We have the makings of a line at LT and Center, with a chance (and I think a good chance) at having at top flight RT.
Again, Neal hasn't even shown anything that would denote he can be a league-average RT, let alone a top flight one.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 08:27:28 AMBob,
I can't help but feel like it's deja vu all over again.
The last GM (Gettleman) came in with a similar "I need to fix the O-line" plan.
Gettleman drafted G Will Hernandez and signed T Nate Solder and G Patrick Omameh.
Schoen drafted T Evan Neal, G Josh Ezeudu, G Marcus McKethan, and signed G Mark Glowinski.
It appeared neither GM's quick fix solution worked.
With the 8th pick overall you're expecting a pro bowl caliber player and in the 3rd round you're looking for a solid starter. If either guy had lived up to expectations we'd be a guard away from having a solid offensive line. His scheme to fix the line would have worked if he had made the right picks, but are we sure we know what Neal and Exudu really are considering how bad Johnson was at his job?
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 24, 2024, 11:59:35 AMTwo FA Linemen helped the Giants win SB's. O'Hara (Cleveland) and McKenzie (Jets).
Ed: If my memory failed me, let me know, but McKenzie was in the right target age when obtained by the Giants, and I don't believe O'Hara was much older than that when they got him. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 24, 2024, 01:20:49 PMEd: If my memory failed me, let me know, but McKenzie was in the right target age when obtained by the Giants, and I don't believe O'Hara was much older than that when they got him. Bob
Both had 7 year careers with the Giants. O'Hara was 27 when he came here and McK was 26.
Quote from: madbadger on February 24, 2024, 12:51:41 PMWith the 8th pick overall you're expecting a pro bowl caliber player and in the 3rd round you're looking for a solid starter. If either guy had lived up to expectations we'd be a guard away from having a solid offensive line. His scheme to fix the line would have worked if he had made the right picks, but are we sure we know what Neal and Exudu really are considering how bad Johnson was at his job?
No doubt the coaching matters significantly, but we have had bad and unstable O line coaching for years now, and Thomas has turned out just fine. Neal and perhaps Ezeudu would likely be better at the margin if they had received more competent coaching, but I doubt they'd be dramatically different players.
With Neal we got a bit unlucky, as he was a consensus top 5 or 10 pick and no less than the 2nd most coveted lineman in that draft. It's hard to kill Schoen on that pick (although he did make it and therefore he's responsible).
Ezeudu is a different story. He was totally off the radar when we took him, and the next day I was reading scouting reports that he'd be a "project" and would need some development, which I found dismaying for a guard taken in the top 70. That's a report I would expect for a 5th or 6th rounder, not an early 3rd rounder. I'm not sure what Schoen was doing there.
Quote from: madbadger on February 24, 2024, 12:51:41 PMWith the 8th pick overall you're expecting a pro bowl caliber player and in the 3rd round you're looking for a solid starter. If either guy had lived up to expectations we'd be a guard away from having a solid offensive line. His scheme to fix the line would have worked if he had made the right picks, but are we sure we know what Neal and Exudu really are considering how bad Johnson was at his job?
"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas"
The reality is both GMs recognized the problem and neither was able to correct it
They were both drafted about a round ahead of the mean of the more respected media value board positions. That is on Schoen. You want a third round G to emerge as a starter by year 3 at the latest. If McKethan ever becomes a serviceable back-up that is at or above realistic expectation for (a reach at) pick 173.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 02:13:00 PM"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas"
The reality is both GMs recognized the problem and neither was able to correct it
Then why bring up their scheme to fix it in the first place. The scheme was correct, the execution sucked.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 24, 2024, 01:32:45 PMBoth had 7 year careers with the Giants. O'Hara was 27 when he came here and McK was 26.
Ed: Thanks.
The timing then was about right on those moves, and IMO that's what they should be doing now, except that hopefully they will find a guy who is at worst 26 and hopefully 25).
I'm not too optimistic, though, because there will be heavy competition for such players. Our only hope is to find a guy who actually WANTS to come to the Giants for whatever reason (doesn't like the team he's on or doesn't fit there very well or is originally from the NE, etc.).
BOb
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 25, 2024, 09:31:38 AMEd: Thanks.
The timing then was about right on those moves, and IMO that's what they should be doing now, except that hopefully they will find a guy who is at worst 26 and hopefully 25).
I'm not too optimistic, though, because there will be heavy competition for such players. Our only hope is to find a guy who actually WANTS to come to the Giants for whatever reason (doesn't like the team he's on or doesn't fit there very well or is originally from the NE, etc.).
BOb
A Conner Williams, Robert Hunt or Ezra Cleveland will cost them an average of 10-12 Million a year and they should pay it. Stop messing around with the Dregs. They can cut Glowinski and save a few million there. Don't tag Saquon.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 25, 2024, 09:43:59 AMA Conner Williams, Robert Hunt or Ezra Cleveland will cost them an average of 10-12 Million a year and they should pay it. Stop messing around with the Dregs. They can cut Glowinski and save a few million there. Don't tag Saquon.
Ed: I couldn't agree more (unless the guy's a bad fit, in which case IMO they should just take their chances with the draft. That's the right approach, but don't force it. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 01:34:03 PMNo doubt the coaching matters significantly, but we have had bad and unstable O line coaching for years now, and Thomas has turned out just fine. Neal and perhaps Ezeudu would likely be better at the margin if they had received more competent coaching, but I doubt they'd be dramatically different players.
With Neal we got a bit unlucky, as he was a consensus top 5 or 10 pick and no less than the 2nd most coveted lineman in that draft. It's hard to kill Schoen on that pick (although he did make it and therefore he's responsible).
Ezeudu is a different story. He was totally off the radar when we took him, and the next day I was reading scouting reports that he'd be a "project" and would need some development, which I found dismaying for a guard taken in the top 70. That's a report I would expect for a 5th or 6th rounder, not an early 3rd rounder. I'm not sure what Schoen was doing there.
They collectively lack the eye for talent at Oline positions.. that is the clear problem, based on clear failures.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 25, 2024, 09:43:59 AMA Conner Williams, Robert Hunt or Ezra Cleveland will cost them an average of 10-12 Million a year and they should pay it. Stop messing around with the Dregs. They can cut Glowinski and save a few million there. Don't tag Saquon.
cutting Waller helps also I think.