Here is how the offensive roster looks this year vs last year
2024
(https://i.imgur.com/lm9jIAc.png)
2023
(https://i.imgur.com/VAjbgjv.png)
Objectively, I think that there has been a significant talent upgrade, even if Waller retires, over last season.
By Position:
1) Quarterback- a bit less than last season as DJ's injuries may reduce his running ability somewhat. Lock may be a bit of a downgrade over Taylor, but Lock seems a bit sturdier and is less likely to be injured.
2) Running Back- I think this is a wash. They replaced the lead back model with shadow of his former self, Barkley, being replaced with the three-headed monster of Singletary, Gray, Tracy who are nice complements to each other and should be as productive if not more so than Barkley
3) Wide Receiver- This is a huge upgrade. Robinson is a year removed from his ACL, Hyatt has a year under his belt, and the addition of blue-chip prospect Nabers makes this an impressive WR unit compared to last year's unit of Slayton, rookie Hyatt/Campbell, Robinson/Shepard. There is an improvement of both speed and talent here.
4) Tight End- Waller never returned to his peak form last season owing to multiple hamstring injuries that started right before the season (plus, he was never a good blocker). Bellinger seemed to regress somewhat, and Cager didn't bring that much to the field. Now (assuming Waller retires you have Bellinger and Theo Johnson headlining as two two-way tight ends (my preference) and a more solid depth (at least in terms of blockers) in Manhertz and Stoll, and Cager coming back for another season.
5) O-line- Last year's line was an utter disaster in so many ways (it improved a bit when Pugh was added midseason). This year's unit brings plenty of proven NFL veteran linemen. They may not be elite or good, but they are also not tomato cans (the Daniel Jeremiah term). Add in a better O-line coach and this could prove to be a serviceable unit rather than the dumpster fire of 2023.
For fun, here was the Giants roster from the season before Schoen and Daboll took over
2021
(https://i.imgur.com/y3v18pB.png)
Mighty Giants - 2021 looks like a pretty barren roster!
I think Schoen is doing things the right way. Is he perfect? No. No one is.
Decent points, Rich. My one area of disagreement is around running back. I have no issues for the committee approach in order to save Cap space but I think there will be a decline in production for the Giants.
Barkley ran behind the same line that gets criticised for Jones' lack of production but rarely (not aiming this at you) is attributed to Barkley's struggles. I personally don't think that's reasonable. If the Eagles line is adequate, I think he'll have a very good season.
Other than that, I largely agree with your points.
Quote from: nicky1000 on April 29, 2024, 09:54:26 AMMighty Giants - 2021 looks like a pretty barren roster!
I think Schoen is doing things the right way. Is he perfect? No. No one is.
I agree. I appreciate that many are focused on the QB being the same, but in terms of building a better, more talented roster, Schoen seems to be moving in the right direction.
Daboll talked about "generators" in his post-draft presser.
QuoteQ. The first night, we were talking about Nabors, the idea was presented to you, the idea that you were giving Daniel a weapon, seemed like -- a weapon for the offense. Is there a sense where you're now trying to build what you want from your offense and what you want from your defense, and it's not necessarily a specific player but it's also kind of what you believe now, want to have, as far as what you're going to do offensively?
BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah, I think -- generators.
Q. Generators?
BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah, people that can do stuff with the ball in their hands. Whether that's take a jet sweep and go 30 yards or whether that's running a double move and catch it 50 yards down the field to help you score points. You know, just to go back to Malik, I feel that he is that.
Now, he's got a lot of work to do. There's a big playbook to learn. You've got to try to slow it down for these young players when they get in. But anyone that can touch the ball -- and linemen can be generators, too, in a different way, by keeping the pocket clean, by getting movement at the line of scrimmage.
So I wouldn't say that it's necessarily -- you've got to wait to see what you have and then try to move pieces around and see where -- Theo, where he fits it in, where Malik fits in, there are different positions to play. There's five eligible players on every play and you try to use those guys the best you can. But they have to come in here and prove it and earn the right to play.
I think the Giants had done a pretty good job adding more "generators to their roster
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 29, 2024, 09:56:35 AMDecent points, Rich. My one area of disagreement is around running back. I have no issues for the committee approach in order to save Cap space but I think there will be a decline in production for the Giants.
Barkley ran behind the same line that gets criticised for Jones' lack of production but rarely (not aiming this at you) is attributed to Barkley's struggles. I personally don't think that's reasonable. If the Eagles line is adequate, I think he'll have a very good season.
Other than that, I largely agree with your points.
I am not going to dispute the possibility that Barkley's production will improve behind the Eagle's better line. I will say though, that in Schoen's first two seasons, he brought in offensive linemen who were better run blockers than pass blockers.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:06:35 AMI am not going to dispute the possibility that Barkley's production will improve behind the Eagle's better line. I will say though, that in Schoen's first two seasons, he brought in offensive linemen who were better run blockers than pass blockers.
That's fair. I guess like everything else it will be a wait and see.
For the record, I would not have wanted Barkley at his current price tag so I think the regime were correct to move on.
Didn't see this post before by Mighty , but it's excellent perspective.
You know Daboll when he came on board in '22 said 'This must be the slowest team in the NFL' . You can see since 2022 they have added a crap ton of speed, quickness guys to this roster.
Team speed is drastically transformed.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2024, 10:39:28 AMDidn't see this post before by Mighty , but it's excellent perspective.
You know Daboll when he came on board in '22 said 'This must be the slowest team in the NFL' . You can see since 2022 they have added a crap ton of speed, quickness guys to this roster.
Team speed is drastically transformed.
I will add that Carl Banks shared after Daboll's season one that the coaching staff was frustrated that none of the receivers could get open on their own; they all needed to be schemed open. That made it much tougher to call an effective offense.
Hopefully the OL can look like it belongs in the NFL this year. If that happens the team will look a lot better.
This is always hard to do because we have the benefit of hindsight for the previous year's offense and how it actually played out vs. how we hoped it would at the start of the season.
At the start of last year, our TE position looked like one of the best in the league, our OL looked solidified with theoretically young highly regarded guys at both tackles and C, our star RB was a year more removed from major injury, our QB had just come off a playoff win.... Of course most of that was garbage, as it turned out.
I'd say objectively we are worse at QB than a year ago, much better at WR, a bit worse at RB, a wash at TE, and the OL I will never ever try to predict again as my hopes have been dashed so many times it's scary.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:03:07 AMI agree. I appreciate that many are focused on the QB being the same, but in terms of building a better, more talented roster, Schoen seems to be moving in the right direction.
Daboll talked about "generators" in his post-draft presser.
I think the Giants had done a pretty good job adding more "generators to their roster
Hyatt on the low end has already proven his speed has to be accounted for on every play he is in for. That alone opens things up for other players. On the high end he becomes a nuanced route runner. Kinda a more explosive Slayton, like a lot more.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2024, 10:52:31 AMHyatt on the low end has already proven his speed has to be accounted for on every play he is in for. That alone opens things up for other players. On the high end he becomes a nuanced route runner. Kinda a more explosive Slayton, like a lot more.
When it comes to receiving, they talk about the 3 layers. There are the short passed (under 10 yards), the intermediate passes (10-20), and the deep passes. Nabers can be effective in all three layers. Last year, the Giants lacked a receiver that could challenge the intermediate layer. Now Nabers can do that, with Hyatt challenging deep, and Robison challenging the short stuff.
Three people to replace one, really doesn't seem like a good deal to me. Barkley did it all and now we have 3 others to replace him.
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:19:28 PMThree people to replace one, really doesn't seem like a good deal to me. Barkley did it all and now we have 3 others to replace him.
The problem with an all-in-one RB is what happens when they get hurt (which Barkley did frequently).
RB by committee is a myth in the NFL, by the way. Rarely do RBs come close to splitting carries- there is always a bellcow. I'm assuming Montgomery will be ours and we'll see where the other dudes fill in sporadically.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 29, 2024, 12:32:09 PMRB by committee is a myth in the NFL, by the way. Rarely do RBs come close to splitting carries- there is always a bellcow. I'm assuming Montgomery will be ours and we'll see where the other dudes fill in sporadically.
Assume you mean Singletary?
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:19:28 PMThree people to replace one, really doesn't seem like a good deal to me. Barkley did it all and now we have 3 others to replace him.
I would argue he did not do it all. For instance:
1. He was not a good blocker
2. He had trouble picking up the 1st down in short yardage situations
3. He had a lot of dropped passes
4. Many games were actually mediocre less that one monster gain
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 12:21:25 PMThe problem with an all-in-one RB is what happens when they get hurt (which Barkley did frequently).
That's really only a problem when all of the backups stink.
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:19:28 PMThree people to replace one, really doesn't seem like a good deal to me. Barkley did it all and now we have 3 others to replace him.
But at 3.9 YPC he didn't do it particularly well. This is not the Barkley of 2018-2019.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 29, 2024, 12:49:40 PMAssume you mean Singletary?
Yes, my bad. I had both him and Montgomery on my fantasy team last year so they sometimes jumble in my head! =))
Quote from: Trench on April 29, 2024, 12:50:38 PMI would argue he did not do it all. For instance:
1. He was not a good blocker
2. He had trouble picking up the 1st down in short yardage situations
3. He had a lot of dropped passes
4. Many games were actually mediocre less that one monster gain
No sure why this "bad blocker" lable stuck. Wasn't he one of the best for the past two seasons?
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 29, 2024, 12:52:29 PMYes, my bad. I had both him and Montgomery on my fantasy team last year so they sometimes jumble in my head! =))
Well in another thread I mentioned that I hadn't had less confidence in an offensive backfield since we had Joe Montgomery.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 29, 2024, 12:53:33 PMNo sure why this "bad blocker" lable stuck. Wasn't he one of the best for the past two seasons?
That's what I recall.
Quote from: Trench on April 29, 2024, 12:50:38 PMI would argue he did not do it all. For instance:
1. He was not a good blocker
2. He had trouble picking up the 1st down in short yardage situations
3. He had a lot of dropped passes
4. Many games were actually mediocre less that one monster gain
Would love to see his short yardage success rate. I dont remember him getting stopped on short yardage too often. I do remember him carrying Dalvin Tomlinson into the endzone in a playoff game and getting some important 2 put conversions over his career.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 29, 2024, 12:53:33 PMNo sure why this "bad blocker" lable stuck. Wasn't he one of the best for the past two seasons?
I thought he had definitely improved his blocking last couple years but a few of the games the announcer highlighted missed blocks by Barkley.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 29, 2024, 12:54:48 PMWell in another thread I mentioned that I hadn't had less confidence in an offensive backfield since we had Joe Montgomery.
That's hard to argue. He had his best year as a pro last year and still didn't crack 900 yards on 216 carries, with 4 TDs. And this should be obvious to Giants fans - behind a much better OL and with stellar QB play his entire career.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 29, 2024, 01:00:20 PMWould love to see his short yardage success rate. I dont remember him getting stopped on short yardage too often. I do remember him carrying Dalvin Tomlinson into the endzone in a playoff game and getting some important 2 put conversions over his career.
I remember him being stuffed many times in short yardage