It seems Carl Banks has had enough. I know some of you will dismiss Carl Banks as a company stooge, but from my years of listening to him, Carl Banks calls it as he sees it. He may not go heavy on the criticism as would be expected by someone who also works for the Giants (the Podcast is not a Giants sanctioned), but Carl doesn't act like the team's cheerleader, either.
https://x.com/CarlBanksGIII/status/1791449243762270431
If you want more context and more comments, here is the entire podcast
Dear Toxic Giants Fans, Root for Daniel JonesIn this episode, Bob Papa and Carl Banks discuss a recent tweet from Bob that wasn't related to Daniel Jones and sparked backlash from Giants fans. They talk about why it's counterproductive for fans to root against Jones. They explore Daniel Jones's challenges over the years, highlighting the lack of stability from coaching and inadequate support on the field. By comparing the Giants' situation to other franchises, they shed light on why fans need to appreciate what this storied franchise has accomplished. Lastly, they touch on Hard Knocks' during this 100th season and how fans will see behind-the-scenes access during the off-season. #tellafriendtotellafriend
When has anyone that is an actual giants fan in this forum rooted against Daniel Jones? Ever...
If anything Daniel Jones being great would make everything significantly easier for the football team.
Do we now also think that the people that believe Neal is horrible are also actively rooting against him as well?
So "insert player" is bad, so the fan base must be actively rooting against him?
You hear more about Jones than other players because his play hasn't elevated year on year with his pay.
People thinking Jones is a bad Qb and rooting against him are two very different things. Most people that are actual Giants fans acknowledge how bad he's been then when the whistlebl blows are locked in on the Giants and Jones winning.
Mr. Banks is an honest man put (too often) in the difficult position of having to criticize the people who pay him.
I for one believe he is SENSATIONAL at his job.
If you listen very very closely to each and every comment (especially during games), not only to the words but the tone and tenor of his voice, you'll hear him calling the balls and strike as fairly as any judge (and he's a really nice man, the kind of guy any fan would love to hang around with). He does soft-pedal the criticism... but he NEVER avoids it. IMO a truly undervalued member of the Giants' overall "team" of employees.
Bob
I like Carl Banks and I respect him, Bob Papa too. However, no employee of the NYG's should be criticizing the fan base on who they support or don't support and who they feel deserves criticism or praise. That would include not only the players but the Coaches, GM, Scouts and Owners.
That said, anyone who wants the Giants to lose any game or for rooting against a player, should examine their own priorities. I don't work for the Giants so as a fan I can say that blaming Tommy DeVito for winning meaningless games doesn't understand the mentality that is coached into players to leave nothing on the field and how every win is meaningful. Teams that tank the season have no respect for their players or the fans who spend hard earned money and their valuable time to support the team. When you tell players that this game is not important, you've killed the team. Fans that put that out are more disrespectful than anyone who may be angry or disappointed that a player of suboptimal performance is supported by Management.
Is the goal of Carl and Bob to show the door to disgruntled fans or to correct their behavior? The optics of those remarks are quite poor. Perhaps a better fan base would be the Casual fan or the bandwagon jumpers that other teams have as their base. Resulting in empty seats and abandoned seat licenses.
There's a difference in the Twitter Moron looking for attention with no consequences and the 24/7/365 fan who comes to discuss football and the NYG's. Providing material to discredit those fans at every opportunity is poor form.
Not a company stooge but doesn't go heavy on the criticism is an oxymoron.
Anyway, I've not read a poster here that doesn't want Jones to succeed.
So I guess his criticism doesn't apply to this community.
From how I see it, the "goofy brigade" is represented by both sides in the DJ debate. To put out a podcast about a "goofy brigade" is, well, goofy.
Since Jones' actual production and numbers have been poor to mediocre overall, if one is a believer that he's not a poor to mediocre starting QB, one must, by default, have the view that other players around him are poor to mediocre. Either way, whichever view you personally take, you're criticizing players on the Giants' offense. You're either saying the offensive linemen and receivers suck, or you're saying Jones sucks (or both). Why are those who are critical of Jones not real fans, but those who claim Jones is good but everyone else around him sucks are? Both groups of people are "shitting on" players on their football team (to use Banks' elegant language). How is the second group of fans more real than the first?
I also fully agree with other posters that there is a very big difference between observing the performance of a player and being critical of it and rooting against said player. I would assume, or hope at least, that most regulars in this forum are able understand that difference.
Carl engages with fans on Twitter quite often and I suspect his criticism is directed at those folks. I've read some of those tweets and quite a few have openly expressed a desire for DJ to fail
I think the frustration that Bob and Carl expressed has more to do with how fans go overboard in their criticism of Daniel Jones, rather than their opinion of Daniel Jones. We have seen that sort of thing here. A post is made about the Giants having the worst offensive line, and you get posts about how people are making excuses for Daniel Jones. People here will cherry-pick facts and spend an inordinate amount of time curating facts about other QBs just to criticize or put Daniel Jones down. Hell, we have even seen posts mocking his facial expression or posts about bleaching one's eyes because you read DJ will be the starting QB.
I have seen game threads that were filled with "Jones' throw was poor," "Jones held on to the ball too long," and "Jones missed the open man." I have even seen Jones blamed for offensive linemen jumping early. Then Jones throws a TD and you get crickets or a nice catch (by the receiver Jones throws to) or on occasion a begrudging "good throw" (this is the rare thing).
Jones isn't the only target. People who don't share the strong negative views on Jones are accused of "making excuses" if they dare to consider the terrible situation Jones has dealt with since entering the NFL. I have seen people accuse those people of undergoing mental gymnastics to defend Jones.
Someone mentioned Evan Neal. Evan Neal, by any objective standard, has been far worse (considering his draft position) than Daniel Jones, but it's rare to see people putting the man down. Most are still hoping he will do better, or they have given up on him, but he isn't injected into every conversation. People are not scouring the league to find other OTs to compare Neal to so they can show how much worse Neal is in comparison. All of that is a unique situation of Daniel Jones.
So, I can understand Carl and Bob's frustration. It's not like either of them are saying Jones is doing great. Neither is suggesting that Jones needs to step up his game or even that Jones is the long term answer. It's just that the amount of time and energy and the frequency DJ's critics put into putting the man down really gets tiring. The man's performance needs improvement, but he is still the starting QB of the team we root for. It's sort of hollow to talk about how one "I don't dislike the guy" if all you do at every opportunity is put the man down and work tirelessly to put him in the worst light possible.
Daniel Jones is a good man who works his ass off for the team. Even if you don't think highly of him, at least give the man the benefit of the doubt and try to be supportive. I have always said about fan boards that no one will ever fault you for saying positive things about the team (unless that positive is directed at Daniel Jones). When it comes to criticism, think about cooking with strong spices, a little goes a long way.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2024, 07:41:07 AMI think the frustration that Bob and Carl expressed has more to do with how fans go overboard in their criticism of Daniel Jones, rather than their opinion of Daniel Jones. We have seen that sort of thing here. A post is made about the Giants having the worst offensive line, and you get posts about how people are making excuses for Daniel Jones. People here will cherry-pick facts and spend an inordinate amount of time curating facts about other QBs just to criticize or put Daniel Jones down. Hell, we have even seen posts mocking his facial expression or posts about bleaching one's eyes because you read DJ will be the starting QB.
I have seen game threads that were filled with "Jones' throw was poor," "Jones held on to the ball too long," and "Jones missed the open man." I have even seen Jones blamed for offensive linemen jumping early. Then Jones throws a TD and you get crickets or a nice catch (by the receiver Jones throws to) or on occasion a begrudging "good throw" (this is the rare thing).
Jones isn't the only target. People who don't share the strong negative views on Jones are accused of "making excuses" if they dare to consider the terrible situation Jones has dealt with since entering the NFL. I have seen people accuse those people of undergoing mental gymnastics to defend Jones.
Someone mentioned Evan Neal. Evan Neal, by any objective standard, has been far worse (considering his draft position) than Daniel Jones, but it's rare to see people putting the man down. Most are still hoping he will do better, or they have given up on him, but he isn't injected into every conversation. People are not scouring the league to find other OTs to compare Neal to so they can show how much worse Neal is in comparison. All of that is a unique situation of Daniel Jones.
So, I can understand Carl and Bob's frustration. It's not like either of them are saying Jones is doing great. Neither is suggesting that Jones needs to step up his game or even that Jones is the long term answer. It's just that the amount of time and energy and the frequency DJ's critics put into putting the man down really gets tiring. The man's performance needs improvement, but he is still the starting QB of the team we root for. It's sort of hollow to talk about how one "I don't dislike the guy" if all you do at every opportunity is put the man down and work tirelessly to put him in the worst light possible.
Daniel Jones is a good man who works his ass off for the team. Even if you don't think highly of him, at least give the man the benefit of the doubt and try to be supportive. I have always said about fan boards that no one will ever fault you for saying positive things about the team (unless that positive is directed at Daniel Jones). When it comes to criticism, think about cooking with strong spices, a little goes a long way.
Works both ways, MG. The defenders and the detractors. That is why it has remained a hot topic. Banks can call out the defenders as easily as the detractors. Both are guilty here but he chooses the latter group to call goofy.
I guess we should be careful not to cheer too much for Daniel Jones lest our enthusiasm be perceived as a "goofy"overreaction.
This is just the never ending struggle of Papa and Banks to find something to talk about in May.
Carl Banks has a voice for the Giants. I do not. However I know I have been wrong many times on this board even when I thought I was communicating accurate facts. Trying to analyze the value of someone else's opinion and its accuracy is a fool's game, and Carl is the fool. Stick to football Carl and next time someone says something you think is "goofy", give your reaction to the mirror first. I think you will find how it reflects on you may not be what you expected.
Quote from: katkavage on May 18, 2024, 08:04:28 AMWorks both ways, MG. The defenders and the detractors. That is why it has remained a hot topic. Banks can call out the defenders as easily as the detractors. Both are guilty here but he chooses the latter group to call goofy.
That's the thing, Kat, you really can't. When you tally up the posts, there are far more negative posts than positive posts. If you really study the dynamics, much of what could be perceived as positive post about Jones are usually posts responding to criticism. Hell, even my mini-rant was nuanced. I didn't say it was wrong to have a negative view (which stands in stark contrast to the accusations of "making excuses"). I didn't even say that Jones will prove to be a franchise QB (which, again, stands in stark contrast to critics who claim Jones will never be a franchise QB).
The "both sides do it" argument is just a way to defend that which really can't be defended, in my opinion.
I readily admit to being a fan who believes in DJ. But I avoid threads that have turned into DJ bashing and simply move on. If I point out that his teammates believe in him, or that the coaches have more insight than me, I get a few hundred word diatribe in response from those who feel the need to convince me to share their opinion. And those people will carry out their oft-repeated invective until fingers are numb from typing. So, as a believer in DJ, I almost always keep away from the discussions. The gentlemen's approach to "let's just agree to disagree" is used in most areas, but certainly not when it comes to DJ. The "haters" feel obligated to proselytize me to their belief. I am a staunch independent in everything when it comes to living my life. I do not join bandwagons to feel comfortable in my own skin. If people don't like me or don't share my opinion, oh well...qué será, será. In the immortal words of Popeye, "I yam what I yam"...a believer in Daniel Jones
So I avoid the subject for sanity's sake
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2024, 08:29:53 AMThat's the thing, Kat, you really can't. When you tally up the posts, there are far more negative posts than positive posts. If you really study the dynamics, much of what could be perceived as positive post about Jones are usually posts responding to criticism. Hell, even my mini-rant was nuanced. I didn't say it was wrong to have a negative view (which stands in stark contrast to the accusations of "making excuses"). I didn't even say that Jones will prove to be a franchise QB (which, again, stands in stark contrast to critics who claim Jones will never be a franchise QB).
The "both sides do it" argument is just a way to defend that which really can't be defended, in my opinion.
That's your perspective,MG. Mine is different. The detractors knock DJ to the extreme, the defenders gloss over or make countless excuses. Both are wrong. There is a middle ground. You just don't choose to acknowledge it.
We didn't get Drake. I agree he had top 5 QB in the NFL upside. Short of that Giants felt no QB available had greater upside than Daniel Jones. I don't blame them for feeling that way.
We now all need to root as one for DJ to succeed with the better supporting cast around him.
This year is exciting to me because I see all the risky measures NYG took in helping DJ: From bad OL coach after bad OL coach, too much youth on the OL, one bad receiving acquisition after another (Toney, Golladay, Rudolph, Waller etc.) finally being addressed with much higher-probability and well thought out additions.
- Carmen Bracillo comes in with a resume that clearly rivals any OL coach we have had here since Pat Flaherty. AN OL coach is one of the most important coaches on a staff after HC/OC/DC.
-Nabers is probably the most sure-fire addition in the receiving corps NYG has made since probably OBJ. Yes he is a rookie, but he is 100% a blue-chip prospect. The kind of player that bucks the long learning curve and can become a WR1 in year 1 or close to it.
-Runyan is according to many advanced analytics one of the top pass protecting guards in the NFL. This is a low key great signing considering some other guys at OG got closer to 20M a year vs 10 M a year. We also added 4 additional veteran options for a total of 5 OL added this offseason. They are not joking around here anymore. No rookies will be starting on the OL this year and only 1 2nd year player in JMS who is supposedly super smart and under Bracillo has a chance for big improvement this year.
-One of those other 4, Eluemenor provides a quality player that Bricillo knows and can play either RG or RT depending on Evan Neal's development.
As a true blue fan through and through I would love nothing more than to see this year become DJ's redemption tour where he just lights it up with all these better , more well thought out options around him. The mass media will be in an absolute tizzy searching for answers on why he looks so good. While some of us here will know the obvious answer, he finally got a competent support system around him from better coaches to better players.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 17, 2024, 01:53:25 PMWhen has anyone that is an actual giants fan in this forum rooted against Daniel Jones? Ever...
I believe this is the crux of the issue. Being hyper critical of DJ can and should never be confused with supporting him. You may say being critical does not prevent you from rooting for him, but I disagree. I contend that most folks that are hyper critical are more likely to root against DJ in order to prove they are correct in their hyper critical analysis.
hyper critical equals "shitting on"
hyper critical not equal to constructive criticism
You're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...
This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.
This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:
The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!
After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.
Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.
I blame the majority media for creating a "bash DJ" emotion among many fans. From the very get go of the draft when we took Daniel Jones, the talking heads (that's what they are because they are not coaches hired for their incredible insight, knowledge, and hands on development of QBs), went insane over the pick because (as all talking heads) they need appear profound in their knowledge so that fans actually buy their BS. Now, they (talking heads) are deeply invested in proving themselves right and will never let it go because they need the ego-boost that they are worthy of getting big bucks to tell fans what they should feel, rather than their own feelings about a player. The talking heads haven't let go of their hatred for Jones since the moment he was chosen. In so doing, they have converted a lot of fans into buying their BS
How many criticisms from talking heads talked negatively about Dak Prescott after his 14 fumbles and 10 interceptions in 2021 (in 12 games). Nary a complaint from talking heads about his ridiculous turnover rate (multiple times more than DJ) or about his salary. BTW, DJ had 7 fumbles in 21...literally half that of Prescott. Most likely, talking heads have the same shortsighted mindset that is, "all winning is done by the QB" and therefore, Prescott is worth his 4-year, $160 million contract, which includes no-trade and no-tag clauses :-?? Could it be because Prescott plays behind a real NFL offensive line...or that their defense was excellent...or that their skill players were better than average?
Here's another interesting stat:
What QB had the most turnovers in their career?
NAME TO % RATE
Brett Favre 363 7.1
Eli Manning 300 7.0
Drew Brees 285 7.6
Vinny Testaverde 278 6.9
Peyton Manning 268 7.7
Ben Roethlisberger 262 7.6
Tom Brady 260 7.4
BTW, the lowest TO rate is held by Kerry Collins
I guess what can be taken from that is that successful QBs tend to be gunslingers who take more chances than less successful QBs
Regardless...getting down on Carl Banks for being frustrated with the negative vibe, not only from fans, but from most media outlets, is a normal reaction. That same frustration is held by all the players on the team who have great faith in DJ, as do I
To sum it up:
I believe DJ is extremely talented (height, arm strength, highly mobile, accurate, etc), as do all the players on the team and the coaches. No one from the comfort of their couch, beer in hand, watching TV knows what DJ has been told to do, or even a hint of an idea how well or fast he processes information...even when they claim to be mind readers. And yeah, we are all well-aware that the team has sucked for a long time now. We don't need more stats to know that. Yet, not all of us believe a great QB can make a "less than mediocre team" to the Super Bowl, nor are we stuck in that "short-sighted" mindset that it's a "team game". All the regurgitated stats proving DJ sucks does not change anyone's opinion. The problem has been across the board and is not an overnight fix. Trying to convince the rest of us that we would be a winning team if we just drafted a different QB isn't changing minds
Oh well...so much for staying out of it...duhhh
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMYou're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...
This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.
This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:
The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!
After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.
Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.
If you think this was a knee jerk reaction by Banks and Papa and not a case of following marching orders to have a successful introduction to the 100 year anniversary, then Ric I have an Oil Well to sell you in Asbury Park.
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 11:46:09 AMIf you think this was a knee jerk reaction by Banks and Papa and not a case of following marching orders to have a successful introduction to the 100 year anniversary, then Ric I have an Oil Well to sell you in Asbury Park.
How much you asking for it? =))
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMYou're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...
This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.
This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:
The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!
After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.
Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.
What he said.
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMThe day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.
Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.
I would date it a little earlier than that. I date it to Kevin Gilbride being made a scapegoat because Mara said the offense is broken. Gilbride developed Eli, as QB coach, and then as offensive coordinator led them to year after year of top ten offenses and 2 SB victories, despite some idiot fans calling him K*i*ll*drive*. Then the offense had one bad year and they scapegoated him. I think of the Giants' woes since then as the Gilbride curse.
* why won't the editor let me type the name he was called without changing it to Gillbride??
The evolution of the angry Giants fan:
2019
I am angry that the Giants drafted Daniel Jones with the 6th pick in the draft just to draft a QB.
2024
I am angry that the Giants DID'T draft a QB with the 6th pick just to draft a QB.
I am mindful that as HOF GM Bill Plian says, the fans and the draft pundits only know a fraction about prospects (especially QBs) than teams do
The success rate of 1st round QBs (regardless of definition of success) is a bit less than 50/50 (bad support lowers these odds)
Also, as Carl Banks has said repeatedly, the Giants drafted Malik Naber to make the Giants a better team. They didn't draft Nabers for Daniel Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2024, 01:44:48 PMThe evolution of the angry Giants fan:
2019
I am angry that the Giants drafted Daniel Jones with the 6th pick in the draft just to draft a QB.
2024
I am angry that the Giants DID'T draft a QB with the 6th pick just to draft a QB.
While there are probably some individuals who feel this way, I believe it is a real minority. In my experience, most Giants fans, including ones who think highly of Jones as a starting NFL QB and ones who don't, didn't want the Giants to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. Particularly once it was clear their front office didn't think highly enough of McCarthy as a prospect to do so. If anything, people are probably angrier that that they didn't end up with a top three pick despite being so clearly terrible last season.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 18, 2024, 12:58:12 PMI would date it a little earlier than that. I date it to Kevin Gilbride being made a scapegoat because Mara said the offense is broken. Gilbride developed Eli, as QB coach, and then as offensive coordinator led them to year after year of top ten offenses and 2 SB victories, despite some idiot fans calling him K*i*ll*drive*. Then the offense had one bad year and they scapegoated him. I think of the Giants' woes since then as the Gilbride curse.
* why won't the editor let me type the name he was called without changing it to Gillbride??
Don't even get me started on that one. You're talking to the the Regional President of the Kevin Gilbride fan club of North America. Still, Coughlin worked well with McAdoo who crashed and burned without his mentorship. McAdoo was not supported properly by Reese. He was too worried about his own job. In Reese We Trust? In a pigs eye.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 18, 2024, 02:07:24 PMWhile there are probably some individuals who feel this way, I believe it is a real minority. In my experience, most Giants fans, including ones who think highly of Jones as a starting NFL QB and ones who don't, didn't want the Giants to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. Particularly once it was clear their front office didn't think highly enough of McCarthy as a prospect to do so. If anything, people are probably angrier that that they didn't end up with a top three pick despite being so clearly terrible last season.
It took me months to properly evaluate JJ instead of just the drive up the board hype that some folks here got on board with. He was the perfect fit but they didn't want a QB controversy on the cusp of their 100 year Anniversary.
QuoteI blame the majority media for creating a "bash DJ" emotion among many fans. From the very get go of the draft when we took Daniel Jones, the talking heads (that's what they are because they are not coaches hired for their incredible insight, knowledge, and hands on development of QBs), went insane over the pick because (as all talking heads) they need appear profound in their knowledge so that fans actually buy their BS. Now, they (talking heads) are deeply invested in proving themselves right and will never let it go because they need the ego-boost that they are worthy of getting big bucks to tell fans what they should feel, rather than their own feelings about a player. The talking heads haven't let go of their hatred for Jones since the moment he was chosen. In so doing, they have converted a lot of fans into buying their BS
How many criticisms from talking heads talked negatively about Dak Prescott after his 14 fumbles and 10 interceptions in 2021 (in 12 games). Nary a complaint from talking heads about his ridiculous turnover rate (multiple times more than DJ) or about his salary. BTW, DJ had 7 fumbles in 21...literally half that of Prescott. Most likely, talking heads have the same shortsighted mindset that is, "all winning is done by the QB" and therefore, Prescott is worth his 4-year, $160 million contract, which includes no-trade and no-tag clauses :-?? Could it be because Prescott plays behind a real NFL offensive line...or that their defense was excellent...or that their skill players were better than average?
Here's another interesting stat:
What QB had the most turnovers in their career?
NAME TO % RATE
Brett Favre 363 7.1
Eli Manning 300 7.0
Drew Brees 285 7.6
Vinny Testaverde 278 6.9
Peyton Manning 268 7.7
Ben Roethlisberger 262 7.6
Tom Brady 260 7.4
BTW, the lowest TO rate is held by Kerry Collins
I guess what can be taken from that is that successful QBs tend to be gunslingers who take more chances than less successful QBs
Regardless...getting down on Carl Banks for being frustrated with the negative vibe, not only from fans, but from most media outlets, is a normal reaction. That same frustration is held by all the players on the team who have great faith in DJ, as do I
To sum it up:
I believe DJ is extremely talented (height, arm strength, highly mobile, accurate, etc), as do all the players on the team and the coaches. No one from the comfort of their couch, beer in hand, watching TV knows what DJ has been told to do, or even a hint of an idea how well or fast he processes information...even when they claim to be mind readers. And yeah, we are all well-aware that the team has sucked for a long time now. We don't need more stats to know that. Yet, not all of us believe a great QB can make a "less than mediocre team" to the Super Bowl, nor are we stuck in that "short-sighted" mindset that it's a "team game". All the regurgitated stats proving DJ sucks does not change anyone's opinion. The problem has been across the board and is not an overnight fix. Trying to convince the rest of us that we would be a winning team if we just drafted a different QB isn't changing minds
Oh well...so much for staying out of it...duhhh
I also had major question marks in my mind every year on offense since DJ became the NYG QB.....
Who in tarnation is this OL coach and why couldn't we pick someone with a stronger resume/track record? (Hunter, Columbo, Gugliemo, Booby Johnson)
What kind of offensive system is this guy going to run? (Garrett)
Who are these questionable receiving options we brought in that have major risks associated with each of them? --- Tate & Randolph & Waller (too old/downside of career), Galloday (super injury prone), Toney (big time character risk, dedication to the game)
And some of the OL we have brought in of course have been terrible misses too.
This year 'feels' significantly different.
-Nabers comes in as not just a top 6 pick in the draft but with a rare high franchise perennial pro bowl kind of grade for a WR.
-As mentioned before, Runyan has tremendous pass pro analytics
-Bracillo's resume strongly suggests he will raise ALL 5 OL's games to play more as a unit and probably get a guy, or two or three playing at a much higher level than they did under Johnson.
-Not one OL will likely be a rookie on the line this year unless multiple injuries beset the line.
- The young receivers Hyatt and Wan'Dale will be a year older and more mature.
Quote from: jimc on May 18, 2024, 10:13:44 AMI believe this is the crux of the issue. Being hyper critical of DJ can and should never be confused with supporting him. You may say being critical does not prevent you from rooting for him, but I disagree. I contend that most folks that are hyper critical are more likely to root against DJ in order to prove they are correct in their hyper critical analysis.
hyper critical equals "shitting on"
hyper critical not equal to constructive criticism
I get what you are trying to say but you are completely wrong.
All the people that supposedly "hate" Jones on this forum are the primary ones in every game day thread rooting him on.
This is an NFL team forum, we are hyper critical of every single player and coach.
Most of this forum have been hyper critical of multiple players and coaches.
Neal
Barkley
Thibodaux
McFadden
Mckethan and Ezeudu
Xavier Mckinney
Bobby Johnson
And more
So it's ok for the majority of the fan base to be hyper critical of them constantly and root for them but it's different for Jones?
Nothing would have made me happier than Jones being the guy because then we wouldn't have to find one but that hasn't been the case.
I am actually on the opposite side of the Neal debate as I think he got really good reps in before getting injured this past season. The majority here though have been hyper critical of him for his comments and his play. Are they actively rooting against him?
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 05:06:22 PMIt took me months to properly evaluate JJ instead of just the drive up the board hype that some folks here got on board with. He was the perfect fit but they didn't want a QB controversy on the cusp of their 100 year Anniversary.
I don't believe that they would have passed on JJ if they thought he was the perfect fit. I know that you did not quite say that, but that is my view in any case. If that were really true, first off Mara would not have publicly said that he was open to drafting a QB in the first round, and they also would not have been all but confirmed by respected league insider types to have been trying to trade up with the Pats. There has also been a fair amount of smoke about Lock potentially getting a crack at the job at some point, so they may end up with a QB controversy on their hands anyway.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 18, 2024, 05:35:46 PMI don't believe that they would have passed on JJ if they thought he was the perfect fit. I know that you did not quite say that, but that is my view in any case. If that were really true, first off Mara would not have publicly said that he was open to drafting a QB in the first round, and they also would not have been all but confirmed by respected league insider types to have been trying to trade up with the Pats. There has also been a fair amount of smoke about Lock potentially getting a crack at the job at some point, so they may end up with a QB controversy on their hands anyway.
If Jones is ready and healthy, he's the QB. No controversy.
They didn't see an upgrade over Jones with JJ? Perhaps.
Quote from: jimc on May 18, 2024, 10:13:44 AMI believe this is the crux of the issue. Being hyper critical of DJ can and should never be confused with supporting him. You may say being critical does not prevent you from rooting for him, but I disagree. I contend that most folks that are hyper critical are more likely to root against DJ in order to prove they are correct in their hyper critical analysis.
hyper critical equals "shitting on"
hyper critical not equal to constructive criticism
By this logic then the same accusation can be made against fans who claim Jones is better than what he has been, except these fans are rooting for the offensive line to continue to do poorly.
I believe neither to be true. I firmly believe Giants fans want the team to win. Which means they want areas of weakness to improve or be improved upon, and if they don't they are likely to be critical. That doesn't mean these fans want bad things to happen - it's very much the opposite. There may be some dark corners out there where that is not the case, but there is no doubt in my mind that the vast, vast majority of fans of any team want their team to be good.
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 05:40:21 PMIf Jones is ready and healthy, he's the QB. No controversy.
In week one, yes, 100%. In week eight or later, probably but not automatically.
You can have controversy about the QB position even if you don't want it. Fans and media members can effectively cause it. The same way they can get coaches fired. I'm not saying this will happen this year by the way. Just that it's not impossible.
Also having no bad vibes or controversy about the team in the centennial anniversary year is basically impossible if they're a bottom seven or eight team again. Having no QB controversy in a big anniversary season is nice and all, but who cares about any of that if the team is on its way to another 4 to 7 win season?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 18, 2024, 05:51:54 PMIn week one, yes, 100%. In week eight or later, probably but not automatically.
You can have controversy about the QB position even if you don't want it. Fans and media members can effectively cause it. The same way they can get coaches fired. I'm not saying this will happen this year by the way. Just that it's not impossible.
Also having no bad vibes or controversy about the team in the centennial anniversary year is basically impossible if they're a bottom seven or eight team again. Having no QB controversy in a big anniversary season is nice and all, but who cares about any of that if the team is on its way to another 4 to 7 win season?
He has the Receivers, whether he has the Oline or not, its not his fault. According to almost everyone here besides us. So, unless he's not healthy, why would they pull him? To keep him healthy so they don't have to pay an injury clause? Admit they were wrong about him and not drafting a QB?
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 07:57:31 PMHe has the Receivers, whether he has the Oline or not, its not his fault. According to almost everyone here besides us. So, unless he's not healthy, why would they pull him? To keep him healthy so they don't have to pay an injury clause? Admit they were wrong about him and not drafting a QB?
That injury clauses is a very real concern for a guy that has played 16 games only once in his 5 seasons in the NFL.
41.5 million total for 2025
-23 million guaranteed if he can't pass a physical at the beginning of the year
-12 million guaranteed if he isn't cut by march
So if he is on the roster in March it'll cost us 42 million on the cap and if he is cut he could only cost 22 million, maybe even 11 if we spread the dead cap over 2 years.
So the difference in 30 million or 12% of our cap will be decided on whether or not Jones simply plays injury free, not whether he plays great or bad.