Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 17, 2024, 01:53:25 PMWhen has anyone that is an actual giants fan in this forum rooted against Daniel Jones? Ever...

I believe this is the crux of the issue. Being hyper critical of DJ can and should never be confused with supporting him. You may say being critical does not prevent you from rooting for him, but I disagree. I contend that most folks that are hyper critical are more likely to root against DJ in order to prove they are correct in their hyper critical analysis. 

hyper critical equals "shitting on"
hyper critical not equal to constructive criticism

You're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...

This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.

This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:

The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!

After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.

Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.

I blame the majority media for creating a "bash DJ" emotion among many fans. From the very get go of the draft when we took Daniel Jones, the talking heads (that's what they are because they are not coaches hired for their incredible insight, knowledge, and hands on development of QBs), went insane over the pick because (as all talking heads) they need appear profound in their knowledge so that fans actually buy their BS. Now, they (talking heads) are deeply invested in proving themselves right and will never let it go because they need the ego-boost that they are worthy of getting big bucks to tell fans what they should feel, rather than their own feelings about a player. The talking heads haven't let go of their hatred for Jones since the moment he was chosen. In so doing, they have converted a lot of fans into buying their BS

How many criticisms from talking heads talked negatively about Dak Prescott after his 14 fumbles and 10 interceptions in 2021 (in 12 games). Nary a complaint from talking heads about his ridiculous turnover rate (multiple times more than DJ) or about his salary. BTW, DJ had 7 fumbles in 21...literally half that of Prescott. Most likely, talking heads have the same shortsighted mindset that is, "all winning is done by the QB" and therefore, Prescott is worth his 4-year, $160 million contract, which includes no-trade and no-tag clauses  Could it be because Prescott plays behind a real NFL offensive line...or that their defense was excellent...or that their skill players were better than average?

Here's another interesting stat:

What QB had the most turnovers in their career?

NAME                    TO    % RATE
Brett Favre             363    7.1
Eli Manning            300    7.0
Drew Brees            285    7.6
Vinny Testaverde    278    6.9
Peyton Manning    268    7.7
Ben Roethlisberger  262    7.6
Tom Brady              260    7.4

BTW, the lowest TO rate is held by Kerry Collins

I guess what can be taken from that is that successful QBs tend to be gunslingers who take more chances than less successful QBs

Regardless...getting down on Carl Banks for being frustrated with the negative vibe, not only from fans, but from most media outlets, is a normal reaction. That same frustration is held by all the players on the team who have great faith in DJ, as do I

To sum it up:

I believe DJ is extremely talented (height, arm strength, highly mobile, accurate, etc), as do all the players on the team and the coaches. No one from the comfort of their couch, beer in hand, watching TV knows what DJ has been told to do, or even a hint of an idea how well or fast he processes information...even when they claim to be mind readers. And yeah, we are all well-aware that the team has sucked for a long time now. We don't need more stats to know that. Yet, not all of us believe a great QB can make a "less than mediocre team" to the Super Bowl, nor are we stuck in that "short-sighted" mindset that it's a "team game". All the regurgitated stats proving DJ sucks does not change anyone's opinion. The problem has been across the board and is not an overnight fix. Trying to convince the rest of us that we would be a winning team if we just drafted a different QB isn't changing minds

Oh well...so much for staying out of it...duhhh

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMYou're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...

This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.

This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:

The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!

After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.

Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.

If you think this was a knee jerk reaction by Banks and Papa and not a case of following marching orders to have a successful introduction to the 100 year anniversary, then Ric I have an Oil Well to sell you in Asbury Park.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 11:46:09 AMIf you think this was a knee jerk reaction by Banks and Papa and not a case of following marching orders to have a successful introduction to the 100 year anniversary, then Ric I have an Oil Well to sell you in Asbury Park.

How much you asking for it? 

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMYou're missing the point when you think this is all about Daniel Jones. This is about a diatribe attack by former high-profile player and the voice of the NYG's radio game announcer against the fan base to voice their displeasure over fan's comments about one player. A player who has not made a difference in 5 seasons. No diatribe when fans wanted to tank the season. No diatribe with all the shots at Evan Neal. Etc...

This is a very transparent effort to get fans behind the decision not to draft a QB. It's not only damage control, it's not good business to attack the customers. I won't bore any of you with ridiculous attempts at comparisons. You can make them yourselves.

This is a conservative organization that has accepted mediocrity and bad teams by giving parameters to their GM's, and placating the fan base by burning through 6 head Coaches including Spags. While never doing a proper rebuild. Here are the plain facts:

The team over the last 10 years has a 37% winning percentage. Just wrap your head around that for a minute. the record is 67-111-1. The point differential over that span is a minus -782 points. 8 of those 10 years the team finished 3rd or 4th in a 4-team Division. That's 80% a bottom-half finish against three other teams. POW!

After all that, the expectation from at least the fans here is that we are looking at 6-7 win season in the third year of Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll. So what happens next? Wash, rinse, and repeat. The day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.

Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.

What he said.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 10:34:47 AMThe day Tom Coughlin walked off that podium in a farce retirement after being thrown under the bus, was the day this Franchise went downhill. Now that deserved a resounding diatribe.

Something seriously is wrong with this organization folks.

I would date it a little earlier than that.  I date it to Kevin Gilbride being made a scapegoat because Mara said the offense is broken. Gilbride developed Eli, as QB coach, and then as offensive coordinator led them to year after year of top ten offenses and 2 SB victories, despite some idiot fans calling him K*i*ll*drive*.  Then the offense had one bad year and they scapegoated him.  I think of the Giants' woes since then as the Gilbride curse.

* why won't the editor let me type the name he was called without changing it to Gillbride??

The evolution of the angry Giants fan:

2019

I am angry that the Giants drafted Daniel Jones with the 6th pick in the draft just to draft a QB.

2024

I am angry that the Giants DID'T draft a QB with the 6th pick just to draft a QB.


I am mindful that as HOF GM Bill Plian says, the fans and the draft pundits only know  a fraction about prospects (especially QBs) than teams do

The success rate of 1st round QBs (regardless of definition of success) is a bit less than 50/50 (bad support lowers these odds)

Also, as Carl Banks has said repeatedly, the Giants drafted Malik Naber to make the Giants a better team.  They didn't draft Nabers for Daniel Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2024, 01:44:48 PMThe evolution of the angry Giants fan:

2019

I am angry that the Giants drafted Daniel Jones with the 6th pick in the draft just to draft a QB.

2024

I am angry that the Giants DID'T draft a QB with the 6th pick just to draft a QB.

While there are probably some individuals who feel this way, I believe it is a real minority. In my experience, most Giants fans, including ones who think highly of Jones as a starting NFL QB and ones who don't, didn't want the Giants to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. Particularly once it was clear their front office didn't think highly enough of McCarthy as a prospect to do so. If anything, people are probably angrier that that they didn't end up with a top three pick despite being so clearly terrible last season.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 18, 2024, 12:58:12 PMI would date it a little earlier than that.  I date it to Kevin Gilbride being made a scapegoat because Mara said the offense is broken. Gilbride developed Eli, as QB coach, and then as offensive coordinator led them to year after year of top ten offenses and 2 SB victories, despite some idiot fans calling him K*i*ll*drive*.  Then the offense had one bad year and they scapegoated him.  I think of the Giants' woes since then as the Gilbride curse.

* why won't the editor let me type the name he was called without changing it to Gillbride??

Don't even get me started on that one. You're talking to the the Regional President of the Kevin Gilbride fan club of North America. Still, Coughlin worked well with McAdoo who crashed and burned without his mentorship. McAdoo was not supported properly by Reese. He was too worried about his own job. In Reese We Trust? In a pigs eye.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 18, 2024, 02:07:24 PMWhile there are probably some individuals who feel this way, I believe it is a real minority. In my experience, most Giants fans, including ones who think highly of Jones as a starting NFL QB and ones who don't, didn't want the Giants to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. Particularly once it was clear their front office didn't think highly enough of McCarthy as a prospect to do so. If anything, people are probably angrier that that they didn't end up with a top three pick despite being so clearly terrible last season.

It took me months to properly evaluate JJ instead of just the drive up the board hype that some folks here got on board with. He was the perfect fit but they didn't want a QB controversy on the cusp of their 100 year Anniversary.

QuoteI blame the majority media for creating a "bash DJ" emotion among many fans. From the very get go of the draft when we took Daniel Jones, the talking heads (that's what they are because they are not coaches hired for their incredible insight, knowledge, and hands on development of QBs), went insane over the pick because (as all talking heads) they need appear profound in their knowledge so that fans actually buy their BS. Now, they (talking heads) are deeply invested in proving themselves right and will never let it go because they need the ego-boost that they are worthy of getting big bucks to tell fans what they should feel, rather than their own feelings about a player. The talking heads haven't let go of their hatred for Jones since the moment he was chosen. In so doing, they have converted a lot of fans into buying their BS

How many criticisms from talking heads talked negatively about Dak Prescott after his 14 fumbles and 10 interceptions in 2021 (in 12 games). Nary a complaint from talking heads about his ridiculous turnover rate (multiple times more than DJ) or about his salary. BTW, DJ had 7 fumbles in 21...literally half that of Prescott. Most likely, talking heads have the same shortsighted mindset that is, "all winning is done by the QB" and therefore, Prescott is worth his 4-year, $160 million contract, which includes no-trade and no-tag clauses  Could it be because Prescott plays behind a real NFL offensive line...or that their defense was excellent...or that their skill players were better than average?

Here's another interesting stat:

What QB had the most turnovers in their career?

NAME                    TO    % RATE
Brett Favre            363    7.1
Eli Manning            300    7.0
Drew Brees            285    7.6
Vinny Testaverde    278    6.9
Peyton Manning    268    7.7
Ben Roethlisberger  262    7.6
Tom Brady              260    7.4

BTW, the lowest TO rate is held by Kerry Collins

I guess what can be taken from that is that successful QBs tend to be gunslingers who take more chances than less successful QBs

Regardless...getting down on Carl Banks for being frustrated with the negative vibe, not only from fans, but from most media outlets, is a normal reaction. That same frustration is held by all the players on the team who have great faith in DJ, as do I

To sum it up:

I believe DJ is extremely talented (height, arm strength, highly mobile, accurate, etc), as do all the players on the team and the coaches. No one from the comfort of their couch, beer in hand, watching TV knows what DJ has been told to do, or even a hint of an idea how well or fast he processes information...even when they claim to be mind readers. And yeah, we are all well-aware that the team has sucked for a long time now. We don't need more stats to know that. Yet, not all of us believe a great QB can make a "less than mediocre team" to the Super Bowl, nor are we stuck in that "short-sighted" mindset that it's a "team game". All the regurgitated stats proving DJ sucks does not change anyone's opinion. The problem has been across the board and is not an overnight fix. Trying to convince the rest of us that we would be a winning team if we just drafted a different QB isn't changing minds

Oh well...so much for staying out of it...duhhh

I also had major question marks in my mind every year on offense since DJ became the NYG QB.....

Who in tarnation is this OL coach and why couldn't we pick someone with a stronger resume/track record? (Hunter, Columbo, Gugliemo, Booby Johnson)

What kind of offensive system is this guy going to run? (Garrett)

Who are these questionable receiving options we brought in that have major risks associated with each of them? --- Tate & Randolph & Waller (too old/downside of career), Galloday (super injury prone), Toney (big time character risk, dedication to the game)

And some of the OL we have brought in of course have been terrible misses too.

This year 'feels' significantly different.

-Nabers comes in as not just a top 6 pick in the draft but with a rare high franchise perennial pro bowl kind of grade for a WR.

-As mentioned before, Runyan has tremendous pass pro analytics

-Bracillo's resume strongly suggests he will raise ALL 5 OL's games to play more as a unit and probably get a guy, or two or three playing at a much higher level than they did under Johnson.

-Not one OL will likely be a rookie on the line this year unless multiple injuries beset the line.

- The young receivers Hyatt and Wan'Dale will be a year older and more mature.

Quote from: jimc on May 18, 2024, 10:13:44 AMI believe this is the crux of the issue. Being hyper critical of DJ can and should never be confused with supporting him. You may say being critical does not prevent you from rooting for him, but I disagree. I contend that most folks that are hyper critical are more likely to root against DJ in order to prove they are correct in their hyper critical analysis. 

hyper critical equals "shitting on"
hyper critical not equal to constructive criticism

I get what you are trying to say but you are completely wrong.

All the people that supposedly "hate" Jones on this forum are the primary ones in every game day thread rooting him on.

This is an NFL team forum, we are hyper critical of every single player and coach.

Most of this forum have been hyper critical of multiple players and coaches.

Neal
Barkley
Thibodaux
McFadden
Mckethan and Ezeudu
Xavier Mckinney
Bobby Johnson

And more

So it's ok for the majority of the fan base to be hyper critical of them constantly and root for them but it's different for Jones?

Nothing would have made me happier than Jones being the guy because then we wouldn't have to find one but that hasn't been the case.

I am actually on the opposite side of the Neal debate as I think he got really good reps in before getting injured this past season. The majority here though have been hyper critical of him for his comments and his play. Are they actively rooting against him?

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 18, 2024, 05:06:22 PMIt took me months to properly evaluate JJ instead of just the drive up the board hype that some folks here got on board with. He was the perfect fit but they didn't want a QB controversy on the cusp of their 100 year Anniversary.

I don't believe that they would have passed on JJ if they thought he was the perfect fit. I know that you did not quite say that, but that is my view in any case. If that were really true, first off Mara would not have publicly said that he was open to drafting a QB in the first round, and they also would not have been all but confirmed by respected league insider types to have been trying to trade up with the Pats. There has also been a fair amount of smoke about Lock potentially getting a crack at the job at some point, so they may end up with a QB controversy on their hands anyway.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 18, 2024, 05:35:46 PMI don't believe that they would have passed on JJ if they thought he was the perfect fit. I know that you did not quite say that, but that is my view in any case. If that were really true, first off Mara would not have publicly said that he was open to drafting a QB in the first round, and they also would not have been all but confirmed by respected league insider types to have been trying to trade up with the Pats. There has also been a fair amount of smoke about Lock potentially getting a crack at the job at some point, so they may end up with a QB controversy on their hands anyway.

If Jones is ready and healthy, he's the QB. No controversy.

They didn't see an upgrade over Jones with JJ? Perhaps.