While I know the 2024 offseason technically isn't over, I think it's fair to say the key portions of it (draft, premium free agency, key contract decisions, coaching changes, etc) are behind us.
So for all intents and purposes, Joe Schoen has now gotten through the bulk of three offseasons as Giants' GM.
While I appreciate that many of Schoen's decisions cannot yet be conclusively judged, but one can still have opinions.
So in your opinion, what have been Schoen's three best moves so far as Giants' GM? What have been his three worst?
If you cannot think of three, feel free to just list one or two.
I'll start with the worst 3. While I clean the kitchen maybe I can think of 3 best moves.
1. The hiring of Daboll. Just what we needed another untried, unproven rookie HC. I'm sure it made Shoen's job easier having someone beholding to him to form their "buddy" team.
2. The Waller trade. Discussed ad nauseum here. Could have given it to Niners and had our QB of the future. Instead he lands on the Cowboys.
3. The Offensive Line. The state of flux and confusion continues. We are running out of OL coaches to blame it on.
4. Our 1st and 2nd round draft choices. Another helping of More WR for everybody. At least they do seem to have talent, but this is very reminiscent of Matt Millen with the Lions, at the time another putrid franchise. Ol' Matt put his stamp on the team drafting 3 (yes THREE) WR in the 1st round in his first 4 years as GM. BTW Thibs is just an above average player at best.
Daboll is on a short leash this year, Shoen has maybe 1 or 2 extra links in his neck collar.
Best:
1. Bobby Okereke, 4 yr 40 million free agent contract
2. Kadarius Toney, traded for a 3rd round pick
3. Leonard Williams, traded for 2nd and 5th round picks
The Nabers pick and Burns trade could be on this list by the end of the season.
Worst:
1. Used 4 draft picks on the OL with very little to show for it so far.
2. Gave up a 3rd round pick for the washed up Darren Waller.
3. The Daniel Jones contract.
Daboll could be on this list by the end of the season if he doesn't learn to control his emotions.
A) To me his best move to date was drafting an elite WR in Malik Nabers.
He physically looks like the next Michael Jordan of receivers out there.
This one player can radically transform the projected stats for DJ and the entire offense as a whole.
Not sure if the D Jones contract was super bad
I guess the thinking is that daballo would bring out the best in him
What was bad is that it should of been no dead money after the second year
Also the injury clause was dumb
Schoen's best moves
1) Bobby Okereke
2) Drafting Daniel Bellinger
3) Drafting Micah McFadden
Worst moves
1) Offensive line (includes drafting Evan Neal
2) Waller trade
3) Not trading Barkley and McKinney last season
Bonus- 4) Letting Julian Love walk
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 10, 2024, 06:16:18 AMSchoen's best moves
1) Bobby Okereke
2) Drafting Daniel Bellinger
3) Drafting Micah McFadden
Worst moves
1) Offensive line (includes drafting Evan Neal
2) Waller trade
3) Not trading Barkley and McKinney last season
Bonus- 4) Letting Julian Love walk
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the draft pick from KC for Kadarius Toney used for Darren Waller?
I'd consider them a wash, if that's the case.
As much as I wanted to keep Barkley, I do agree with you that it was best to trade him for something of value.
Quote from: T200 on June 10, 2024, 08:38:07 AMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the draft pick from KC for Kadarius Toney used for Darren Waller?
I'd consider them a wash, if that's the case.
As much as I wanted to keep Barkley, I do agree with you that it was best to trade him for something of value.
Tim,
You are correct. The pick 100 was part of the trade. I don't tie the two together, though. Once the Toney trade was made, the team had the picks. Now you have to consider how the two picks were spent. Admittedly, pick 100 isn't that high, but you think you should get more than a one year rental on an oft injured veteran.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 10, 2024, 08:45:03 AMTim,
You are correct. The pick 100 was part of the trade. I don't tie the two together, though. Once the Toney trade was made, the team had the picks. Now you have to consider how the two picks were spent. Admittedly, pick 100 isn't that high, but you think you should get more than a one year rental on an oft injured veteran.
I look at it as house money. The Toney pick was made by Gettleman. Toney was a zero-sum resource when Schoen took over. He took nothing and turned it into something in the form of picks. He attempted to take that something and parlay into a resource that the team needed and could use in Waller. It didn't work out and now Waller is retired. We're back to the zero-sum that he started with. That's why I consider it a wash.
Everyone loved the Waller move at the time. Anyone complaining about it now is full of xxxx.
Quote from: coggs on June 10, 2024, 10:14:59 AMEveryone loved the Waller move at the time. Anyone complaining about it now is full of xxxx.
I get what you are saying. Although I I think everyone appreciated it was a gamble. When the gamble busts, it's natural for people to look to the person who placed the bet, even if they were okay with it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 10, 2024, 10:36:50 AMI get what you are saying. Although I I think everyone appreciated it was a gamble. When the gamble busts, it's natural for people to look to the person who placed the bet, even if they were okay with it.
This.
I don't put it down as one of his worst moves though.
I look at this as a balance sheet.
Assets
Drafting Thibs
Trading for Burns
Improving the ILB's, Okereke, Simmons, McFadden
Drafting Nabors and Hyatt
Signing Drew Lock
Contracts for Dex and Thomas
Signing Singletary to replace Barkley
Siding with Daboll over Martindale
Drafting JMS
Hiring Daboll and Kafka
Liabilities
Signing Jones instead of tagging him
Loosing Barkley and McKinney for nothing
Not upgrading the 2022 Oline properly
Not signing a replacement for Williams and Jackson
Losing instead of committing to players who went on to solid careers elsewhere.
Not making an effort to Draft McCarthy, Nix or Penix
Waiting a year to replace the Oline Coach
Evan Neal is in his put up or shut up year.
Quote from: coggs on June 10, 2024, 10:14:59 AMEveryone loved the Waller move at the time. Anyone complaining about it now is full of xxxx.
Not everyone. And every positive reaction was hedged with "if he can stay healthy" and "if he can return to his form of 2 years ago", with hope overriding common sense.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on June 10, 2024, 02:57:32 PMNot everyone. And every positive reaction was hedged with "if he can stay healthy" and "if he can return to his form of 2 years ago", with hope overriding common sense.
I didn't love the Waller trade. As you stated, he was coming off two injury plagued and unproductive seasons. He only had two productive/great seasons before that, so this isn't a player like Gronk or Kelce who established himself as demonstrating excellence over a long period of time.
I remember being genuinely bothered when Jerry Reese wasn't able to close the deal on trading for Tony Gonzales. This isn't Tony Gonzales.
Waller isn't the guy people try to portray him as. He only had two season worth remembering. So the idea that trading for Waller was a slam dunk is false. His background and career history made him an obviously huge risk. For a rebuilding team, it isn't a straightforward good idea trading a 3rd rounder for a guy like that.
Based on what I know/believe today:
Best moves:
1. Signing Okereke
2. The Leo trade
3. The Burns trade
Worst moves:
1. The Jones contract (should have tagged him)
2. Getting nothing for either Barkley or McKinney
3. The complete lack of progress in the O line to this point despite investing major resources in it.
Best-
1. Bobby Okereke
2. Upgrading the overall talent of the team ie churning the bottom of the roster.
3. The oline, while it hasn't been fixed, you can't knock the guy for trying, he's put assest after assess on the line.
Worst-
1. Not trading Barkley in 2022 at the deadline when he was white hot and the best back in the league.
2. Winning the Vikings game to cloud the overall plan for the rebuild. The Jones contract and Waller trade came about because of that one game. I fully believe had we lost in Minnesota Jones, Waller etc wouldn't be on the roster.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 10, 2024, 07:52:11 PMBest-
1. Bobby Okereke
2. Upgrading the overall talent of the team ie churning the bottom of the roster.
3. The oline, while it hasn't been fixed, you can't knock the guy for trying, he's put assest after assess on the line.
Worst-
1. Not trading Barkley in 2022 at the deadline when he was white hot and the best back in the league.
2. Winning the Vikings game to cloud the overall plan for the rebuild. The Jones contract and Waller trade came about because of that one game. I fully believe had we lost in Minnesota Jones, Waller etc wouldn't be on the roster.
How is a tea. winning a playoff game a GMs worst move?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on June 10, 2024, 09:46:33 PMHow is a tea. winning a playoff game a GMs worst move?
His reaction to us winning that game was everything that set us back. Signing Jones, trading for a weapon, not trading Barkley etc. Most of those moves likely don't happen if we get blown out or lose that game.
The Giants did have a playoff game after the Minnesota win and did get blown out.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 11, 2024, 07:19:22 AMHis reaction to us winning that game was everything that set us back. Signing Jones, trading for a weapon, not trading Barkley etc. Most of those moves likely don't happen if we get blown out or lose that game.
Ok, so after the GM "made the move to win a playoff game", he made poor decisions you feel were poor?
I dont see how "winning a playoff game" answers the OP. The GM didnt win the playoff game the players did.
If early success lead to poor decisions later so be it, but winning a playoff game isnt a bad move by a GM. Further, I think making the playoffs might have been an impetus for the moves you listed regardless of that one playoff game.
Have been scratching my head on somethings I have read here lately:
Winning a playoff game was bad
Making the playoffs doesnt mean you are a playoff team (by definition it does).
It's like the bizarro forum.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 10, 2024, 07:10:07 PMBased on what I know/believe today:
Best moves:
1. Signing Okereke
2. The Leo trade
3. The Burns trade
Worst moves:
1. The Jones contract (should have tagged him)
2. Getting nothing for either Barkley or McKinney
3. The complete lack of progress in the O line to this point despite investing major resources in it.
The Leo trade was a good one
So far Id give him a B Minus
Best Move- letting Barkley leave (too much talk not enough results). You don't need a homer hitter at RB, you need a guy who can reliably move the chains and block well. Everyone in the stadium knew when Barkley was getting the ball, especially the opponents
Worst Moves- Letting Julian Love go. Keeping Jones- although I think he probably got the job by promising Mara to keep Jones
Quote from: uconnjack8 on June 11, 2024, 07:54:16 AMOk, so after the GM "made the move to win a playoff game", he made poor decisions you feel were poor?
I dont see how "winning a playoff game" answers the OP. The GM didnt win the playoff game the players did.
If early success lead to poor decisions later so be it, but winning a playoff game isnt a bad move by a GM. Further, I think making the playoffs might have been an impetus for the moves you listed regardless of that one playoff game.
Have been scratching my head on somethings I have read here lately:
Winning a playoff game was bad
Making the playoffs doesnt mean you are a playoff team (by definition it does).
It's like the bizarro forum.
Look at the 3 worst moves that most people have listed. 90% of them came to be because of the reaction to us winning that playoff game. Thats it, I think you are trying to read more into it then there is. Schoens worst moves Came on the back of that 2022 season. Instead of realizing we were still far off, they double down trying to acquire weapons, retaining Barkley and Jones etc. Most of those likely don't happen if we lose that Vikings game as we were horrible in the 2nd half of 2022.
In my opinion that game set us back a year and a half, but that's what I think and you're welcome to your own opinion.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 11, 2024, 09:57:31 AMLook at the 3 worst moves that most people have listed. 90% of them came to be because of the reaction to us winning that playoff game. Thats it, I think you are trying to read more into it then there is. Schoens worst moves Came on the back of that 2022 season. Instead of realizing we were still far off, they double down trying to acquire weapons, retaining Barkley and Jones etc. Most of those likely don't happen if we lose that Vikings game as we were horrible in the 2nd half of 2022.
In my opinion that game set us back a year and a half, but that's what I think and you're welcome to your own opinion.
There is no way Jones was going. Mara loves him like a son. Personally he is the perfect guy- quiet, affable, says all the right things. On the field he freezes up
As a lifelong fan I wish they were a little more barracuda-like but they are not. Its a family business and the family plays nice.
"We have done everything we could to screw this guy up" Goodness. Now we have made him a rich man- to what end?
I think the contract was the reward for the "we have done everything we could to screw this guy up" however now if he does not perform, the team will have no hesitancy to rid themselves of him and save the contract money remaining because they know what they already paid DJ is adequate compensation for "screwing him up." He will never have to work again. The team can sleep at night.
Quote from: Philosophers on June 11, 2024, 12:07:37 PMI think the contract was the reward for the "we have done everything we could to screw this guy up" however now if he does not perform, the team will have no hesitancy to rid themselves of him and save the contract money remaining because they know what they already paid DJ is adequate compensation for "screwing him up." He will never have to work again. The team can sleep at night.
I think Jones is an enigma
He certainly can make all the throws, has word class foot speed, is toughs nails
on the other hand he struggles with the mental part of the game
perhaps he overthinks things too much
with all that money in his pocket he should just rise up and let it rip
if you are going to fail, fail on full throttle. No need to accentuate caution.
He needs to read and react at a faster pace. He is not graceful, not slick like say a Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.
His strengths are speed and very strong arm. I'd like to see him throw caution to the wind this year (as he did in his rookie year) and just let the game come to him and let it rip.
If all that fails, then next man up and he can resume his NFL career elsewhere as a back up. This is his make or break year IMHO
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 10, 2024, 07:52:11 PMBest-
1. Bobby Okereke
2. Upgrading the overall talent of the team ie churning the bottom of the roster.
3. The oline, while it hasn't been fixed, you can't knock the guy for trying, he's put assest after assess on the line.
Worst-
1. Not trading Barkley in 2022 at the deadline when he was white hot and the best back in the league.
2. Winning the Vikings game to cloud the overall plan for the rebuild. The Jones contract and Waller trade came about because of that one game. I fully believe had we lost in Minnesota Jones, Waller etc wouldn't be on the roster.
The Giants were on their way to making the playoffs, had a winning record at the time, and you wanted them to trade Barkley right at that moment?
Do you know the backlash management would have received?
That would have been one of the worst moves the franchise could have made.
The right move would have been if Barkley accepted the 3-year deal Schoen offered him at the deadline, but he refused.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 11, 2024, 09:40:52 PMThe Giants were on their way to making the playoffs, had a winning record at the time, and you wanted them to trade Barkley right at that moment?
Do you know the backlash management would have received?
That would have been one of the worst moves the franchise could have made.
The right move would have been if Barkley accepted the 3-year deal Schoen offered him at the deadline, but he refused.
Yes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.
That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.
So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even now it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 08:32:43 AMYes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.
That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.
So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even know it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.
The Panthers had no shot at making the playoffs, they were not a good team when they traded Mcaffrey away, it's not the same scenario.
Daniel Jones was playing to save his job since they declined his 5th year option, and Barkley was helping in making his job easier.
If what you're saying is true, that they would have beat Houston, Indianapolis, and Washington without Barkley, than Daniel Jones was the more important player.
So we will have to agree to disagree here, as I believe keeping Barkley was the right move at the time.
Just too bad they couldn't have signed him to that three year deal.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 12, 2024, 08:44:50 AMThe Panthers had no shot at making the playoffs, they were not a good team when they traded Mcaffrey away, it's not the same scenario.
Daniel Jones was playing to save his job since they declined his 5th year option, and Barkley was helping in making his job easier.
If what you're saying is true, that they would have beat Houston, Indianapolis, and Washington without Barkley, than Daniel Jones was the more important player.
So we will have to agree to disagree here, as I believe keeping Barkley was the right move at the time.
Just too bad they couldn't have signed him to that three year deal.
Why? We got absolutely nothing for Barkley and were In year 1 of the rebuild why wouldn't we try to get picks for an expiring player. We look dumb having not gotten anything for him when we had 2 plus year to do so.
Who said anything about Daniel Jones? Also the qb on any team is always going to be the most important player regardless of if they are good or not.
Lastly Barkleys advanced metrics were absolutely horrible, he fell off a cliff in that Houston game that he never ŕecoveted from even in 2023. so why would you want to sign a declining player longterm, when you could have gotten significant capital for him in trade. It isn't logical, especially when you look at teams that have made significant pushes into the playoffs, only 1 team has had alead back in the past 15 seasons that made the super bowl.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 08:32:43 AMYes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.
That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.
So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even now it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.
Fan backlash? How about Schoen and Daboll having to look 52 other guys in the eye after getting rid of their best offensive player when the team was in position to get in the playoffs?
What other team has traded their best player while in the mix for the playoffs?
Whether you or others here think they should have started a fire sale during the 2022 season, I would would be willing to wager not one person that is employed as a coach or FO person in the NFL would agree.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on June 12, 2024, 01:17:26 PMFan backlash? How about Schoen and Daboll having to look 52 other guys in the eye after getting rid of their best offensive player when the team was in position to get in the playoffs?
What other team has traded their best player while in the mix for the playoffs?
Whether you or others here think they should have started a fire sale during the 2022 season, I would would be willing to wager not one person that is employed as a coach or FO person in the NFL would agree.
We were in year one of a rebuild with a new HC and GM. The previous 3 seasons we had won 4, 6, and 4 games. No one thought this team was going to the Super Bowl, so why wouldn't you for the long term success of the franchise?
Barkley had 1300 yards in 2022, of which only 354 came after the deadline or last 7 games of the season. Was that 354 yards really worth a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rd pick?
We were clearly out classed in 2022 with the coaches having to hide significant deficiencies and still losing to all the actual playoff caliber teams. So if they knew we are significantly behind talent wise, and that we were going to likely lose Barkley for nothing, why wouldn't you make that trade.
Not fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake. As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 01:39:26 PMWe were in year one of a rebuild with a new HC and GM. The previous 3 seasons we had won 4, 6, and 4 games. No one thought this team was going to the Super Bowl, so why wouldn't you for the long term success of the franchise?
Barkley had 1300 yards in 2022, of which only 354 came after the deadline or last 7 games of the season. Was that 354 yards really worth a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rd pick?
We were clearly out classed in 2022 with the coaches having to hide significant deficiencies and still losing to all the actual playoff caliber teams. So if they knew we are significantly behind talent wise, and that we were going to likely lose Barkley for nothing, why wouldn't you make that trade.
Why dont you call into a radio show with a former GM and ask th ask that question?
No one thought they were going to.....and they made the playoffs. You really answered your own question.
Quote from: Philosophers on June 12, 2024, 02:13:57 PMNot fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake. As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.
I think the Oline coach had a lot to do with this disaster. Hopefully the new guy knows what he is doing
Quote from: coggs on June 10, 2024, 10:14:59 AMEveryone loved the Waller move at the time. Anyone complaining about it now is full of xxxx.
I didn't. Players don't come to the Giants to get healthy. Unfortunately it's usually the opposite. I'm sure there's outliers but we aren't strong in that respect.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 08:32:43 AMYes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.
That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.
So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even now it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.
J,
Your position on Jones is well-documented here. Some of those views I agree with. Dumping Saquon in the midst of a playoff berth run would not have been the smart move. The Giants were not a strong team that year but played gritty ball, winning the second-most one-score games that season, right behind Minny.
When a team is scrappy like that, anything can happen. Jones was playing safe, mistake-free ball and Saquon was carrying the load offensively. Whether you or anyone else feels they wouldn't have made a deep run doesn't factor into the equation. You don't tell a person waiting for a heart transplant that they aren't going to get one because they probably won't live that long afterwards. Trading Saquon mid-season would be the equivalent of pulling the plug prematurely. The Giants had life and you just don't make a move to tell the team that we essentially are quitting on this season.
Fans and players view things differently. Forget the fan perspective... the players would have revolted. And I would have supported them 1000%.
Quote from: BluesCruz on June 13, 2024, 06:27:56 AMQuote from: Philosophers on June 12, 2024, 02:13:57 PMNot fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake. As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.
I think the Oline coach had a lot to do with this disaster. Hopefully the new guy knows what he is doing
Honestly, I don't know how many more people like you want to go on spewing this position. Sorry that's not a dig at you but I think the narrative is false.
Since the "golden" years of Pat Flaherty as OL coach back in 2015, we have had the following:
Mike Solari - 2016 - 2017
Hal Hunter - 2018 - 2019
Marc Columbo - 2020
Rob Sale - 2021
Bobby Johnson - 2022 - 2023
Carmen Bricillo
That is six OL coaches since 2015 and the problem still is not fixed. Are all of these guys prior to Bricillo clowns as OL coaches? I doubt it. Marc Columbo for example was well regarded in his prior stop.
The Giants problems are beyond an OL coach and someone needs to look more broadly at it. Some of the problem may be in the OL coach, but it has to also be scheme vs player, play calling, adjustments at OL prior to snap, philosophy, etc. There is more to this problem. For example, if a top college player is doing really well say stepping back with his right foot in pass protection, why retrain him to go back with his left foot? Why fix what may not be broken?
Quote from: T200 on June 13, 2024, 08:29:19 AMJ,
Your position on Jones is well-documented here. Some of those views I agree with. Dumping Saquon in the midst of a playoff berth run would not have been the smart move. The Giants were not a strong team that year but played gritty ball, winning the second-most one-score games that season, right behind Minny.
When a team is scrappy like that, anything can happen. Jones was playing safe, mistake-free ball and Saquon was carrying the load offensively. Whether you or anyone else feels they wouldn't have made a deep run doesn't factor into the equation. You don't tell a person waiting for a heart transplant that they aren't going to get one because they probably won't live that long afterwards. Trading Saquon mid-season would be the equivalent of pulling the plug prematurely. The Giants had life and you just don't make a move to tell the team that we essentially are quitting on this season.
Fans and players view things differently. Forget the fan perspective... the players would have revolted. And I would have supported them 1000%.
I get that a 100% the only counter to that is that he was on an expiring contract and if he wasnt in your longterm plans, then holding him for 8 games, and a possible playoff berth over multiple day 2 picks in hindsight was likely a mistake. At the time of the trade deadline he had already turned down their 3 year offer and so they knew it'd likely take more money than they were willing to offer.
The Giants didnt even offer him a contract before free agency this year, only the Eagles, Houston, and 2 other teams did. So if they were never going to offer him, and he wasn't in the plans, why not get value for that player instead is all I'm trying to say.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 09:27:54 AMI get that a 100% the only counter to that is that he was on an expiring contract and if he wasnt in your longterm plans, then holding him for 8 games, and a possible playoff berth over multiple day 2 picks in hindsight was likely a mistake. At the time of the trade deadline he had already turned down their 3 year offer and so they knew it'd likely take more money than they were willing to offer.
The Giants didnt even offer him a contract before free agency this year, only the Eagles, Houston, and 2 other teams did. So if they were never going to offer him, and he wasn't in the plans, why not get value for that player instead is all I'm trying to say.
Let's keep the timelines straight: your first point was that they should have traded him in 2022, the playoff season. Your statement about the Giants not offering him a contract was regarding this past season: two different seasons.
Additionally, this season went off the rails quickly with the early season blowouts and the injuries.
Here's a question for you: if the Giants duplicated their 2022 season, do you think they would have tried to sign Saquon?
Sorry about that
Quote from: T200 on June 13, 2024, 11:30:52 AMLet's keep the timelines straight: your first point was that they should have traded him in 2022, the playoff season. Your statement about the Giants not offering him a contract was regarding this past season: two different seasons.
Additionally, this season went off the rails quickly with the early season blowouts and the injuries.
Here's a question for you: if the Giants duplicated their 2022 season, do you think they would have tried to sign Saquon?
Yeah I was jumping around a bit but to clarify, the Giants didn't extend Barkley before the 2022 season, just like they didn't use the option on Jones. Halfway through 2022 they offered Barkley the 3 year deal, along with offering Love and a few others. Barkley declined the offer and the Giants didn't trade him and ended up signing the franchise tag. They knew when he declined the deal in 2022 that it was likely more than they were willing to pay, but did the franchise tag to try to run it back with an added Waller etc. Like you said it blew up because of injuries, and they still kept him even though they knew they had no intention of resigning him at the end of the season. They had 2 opportunities, trade deadline in 2022, and the one in 2023 and did nothing.
As to your question, I think the success of 2022 almost forced schoen to bring Barkley back on the tag, and had they duplicated 2022 ie beating an ok team in the wild card just to get smashed by an actual playoff team would have been the wake up that Schoen needed to realize that they were still way off and the luxury of a super expensive back is a luxury for teams that don't have glaring needs everywhere. So hopefully not, but I am not Schoen.
AZ brought it up in another thread but this franchise has been snake bitten by constantly having this thought that they are in win now mode when they clearly aren't. I just want them to have an actual rebuild which is what it seems like we are doing now. The 2022 season, and not getting something for Barkley or Mckinney set that rebuild back.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 02:19:48 PMYeah I was jumping around a bit but to clarify, the Giants didn't extend Barkley before the 2022 season, just like they didn't use the option on Jones. Halfway through 2022 they offered Barkley the 3 year deal, along with offering Love and a few others. Barkley declined the offer and the Giants didn't trade him and ended up signing the franchise tag. They knew when he declined the deal in 2022 that it was likely more than they were willing to pay, but did the franchise tag to try to run it back with an added Waller etc. Like you said it blew up because of injuries, and they still kept him even though they knew they had no intention of resigning him at the end of the season. They had 2 opportunities, trade deadline in 2022, and the one in 2023 and did nothing.
As to your question, I think the success of 2022 almost forced schoen to bring Barkley back on the tag, and had they duplicated 2022 ie beating an ok team in the wild card just to get smashed by an actual playoff team would have been the wake up that Schoen needed to realize that they were still way off and the luxury of a super expensive back is a luxury for teams that don't have glaring needs everywhere. So hopefully not, but I am not Schoen.
AZ brought it up in another thread but this franchise has been snake bitten by constantly having this thought that they are in win now mode when they clearly aren't. I just want them to have an actual rebuild which is what it seems like we are doing now. The 2022 season, and not getting something for Barkley or Mckinney set that rebuild back.
J,
Fair enough. I think, had they duplicated the 2022 season, Schoen would have made a reasonable offer to Saquon. It would have shown that there is something there's meat on the bone to build on and the weak areas would have to be strengthened to get to the next level.