Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 12, 2024, 08:44:50 AMThe Panthers had no shot at making the playoffs, they were not a good team when they traded Mcaffrey away, it's not the same scenario.

Daniel Jones was playing to save his job since they declined his 5th year option, and Barkley was helping in making his job easier.

If what you're saying is true, that they would have beat Houston, Indianapolis, and Washington without Barkley, than Daniel Jones was the more important player.

So we will have to agree to disagree here, as I believe keeping Barkley was the right move at the time.

Just too bad they couldn't have signed him to that three year deal.

Why? We got absolutely nothing for Barkley and were In year 1 of the rebuild why wouldn't we try to get picks for an expiring player. We look dumb having not gotten anything for him when we had 2 plus year to do so.

Who said anything about Daniel Jones? Also the qb on any team is always going to be the most important player regardless of if they are good or not.

Lastly Barkleys advanced metrics were absolutely horrible, he fell off a cliff in that Houston game that he never ŕecoveted from even in 2023. so why would you want to sign a declining player longterm, when you could have gotten significant capital for him in trade. It isn't logical, especially when you look at teams that have made significant pushes into the playoffs, only 1 team has had alead back in the past 15 seasons that made the super bowl.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 08:32:43 AMYes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.

That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.

So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even now it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.

Fan backlash?  How about Schoen and Daboll having to look 52 other guys in the eye after getting rid of their best offensive player when the team was in position to get in the playoffs?

What other team has traded their best player while in the mix for the playoffs?

Whether you or others here think they should have started a fire sale during the 2022 season, I would would be willing to wager not one person that is employed as a coach or FO person in the NFL would agree. 

 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on June 12, 2024, 01:17:26 PMFan backlash?  How about Schoen and Daboll having to look 52 other guys in the eye after getting rid of their best offensive player when the team was in position to get in the playoffs?

What other team has traded their best player while in the mix for the playoffs?

Whether you or others here think they should have started a fire sale during the 2022 season, I would would be willing to wager not one person that is employed as a coach or FO person in the NFL would agree. 

 

We were in year one of a rebuild with a new HC and GM. The previous 3 seasons we had won 4, 6, and 4 games. No one thought this team was going to the Super Bowl, so why wouldn't you for the long term success of the franchise?
Barkley had 1300 yards in 2022, of which only 354 came after the deadline or last 7 games of the season. Was that 354 yards really worth a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rd pick?

We were clearly out classed in 2022 with the coaches having to hide significant deficiencies and still losing to all the actual playoff caliber teams. So if they knew we are significantly behind talent wise, and that we were going to likely lose Barkley for nothing, why wouldn't you make that trade.

Not fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake.  As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 01:39:26 PMWe were in year one of a rebuild with a new HC and GM. The previous 3 seasons we had won 4, 6, and 4 games. No one thought this team was going to the Super Bowl, so why wouldn't you for the long term success of the franchise?
Barkley had 1300 yards in 2022, of which only 354 came after the deadline or last 7 games of the season. Was that 354 yards really worth a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rd pick?

We were clearly out classed in 2022 with the coaches having to hide significant deficiencies and still losing to all the actual playoff caliber teams. So if they knew we are significantly behind talent wise, and that we were going to likely lose Barkley for nothing, why wouldn't you make that trade.

Why dont you call into a radio show with a former GM and ask th ask that question?

No one thought they were going to.....and they made the playoffs.  You really answered your own question. 

Quote from: Philosophers on June 12, 2024, 02:13:57 PMNot fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake.  As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.

I think the Oline coach had a lot to do with this disaster.  Hopefully the new guy knows what he is doing

Quote from: coggs on June 10, 2024, 10:14:59 AMEveryone loved the Waller move at the time.  Anyone complaining about it now is full of xxxx.

I didn't. Players don't come to the Giants to get healthy. Unfortunately it's usually the opposite. I'm sure there's outliers but we aren't strong in that respect. 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 08:32:43 AMYes, this team wasn't making a deep run, infact we went 3-6-1 after the deadline with Barkley. Very likely that we still win the Houston, Indy, and Washington game without Barkley.

That same season the 49ers gave up a haul for an oft-injured McCaffrey and that could have been us as Barkley was the premier back for the 1st half of the season. He hit a wall in the Houston game and was never the same.

So yes who cares about fan backlash when it was the right move to make. Even now it would have been the best move if we are trying to win super bowls.

J,

Your position on Jones is well-documented here. Some of those views I agree with. Dumping Saquon in the midst of a playoff berth run would not have been the smart move. The Giants were not a strong team that year but played gritty ball, winning the second-most one-score games that season, right behind Minny.

When a team is scrappy like that, anything can happen. Jones was playing safe, mistake-free ball and Saquon was carrying the load offensively. Whether you or anyone else feels they wouldn't have made a deep run doesn't factor into the equation. You don't tell a person waiting for a heart transplant that they aren't going to get one because they probably won't live that long afterwards. Trading Saquon mid-season would be the equivalent of pulling the plug prematurely. The Giants had life and you just don't make a move to tell the team that we essentially are quitting on this season.

Fans and players view things differently. Forget the fan perspective... the players would have revolted. And I would have supported them 1000%.

Quote from: BluesCruz on June 13, 2024, 06:27:56 AM

Quote from: Philosophers on June 12, 2024, 02:13:57 PMNot fixing the OL (with better coaches, questions in scheme vs player, and OL players) is his greatest mistake.  As Harbaugh said OL is the only unit not dependent on others while others are dependent on it.

I think the Oline coach had a lot to do with this disaster.  Hopefully the new guy knows what he is doing

Honestly, I don't know how many more people like you want to go on spewing this position.  Sorry that's not a dig at you but I think the narrative is false.

Since the "golden" years of Pat Flaherty as OL coach back in 2015, we have had the following:

Mike Solari - 2016 - 2017
Hal Hunter - 2018 - 2019
Marc Columbo - 2020
Rob Sale - 2021
Bobby Johnson - 2022 - 2023
Carmen Bricillo

That is six OL coaches since 2015 and the problem still is not fixed.  Are all of these guys prior to Bricillo clowns as OL coaches?  I doubt it.  Marc Columbo for example was well regarded in his prior stop.

The Giants problems are beyond an OL coach and someone needs to look more broadly at it.  Some of the problem may be in the OL coach, but it has to also be scheme vs player, play calling, adjustments at OL prior to snap, philosophy, etc.  There is more to this problem.  For example, if a top college player is doing really well say stepping back with his right foot in pass protection, why retrain him to go back with his left foot?  Why fix what may not be broken?

Quote from: T200 on June 13, 2024, 08:29:19 AMJ,

Your position on Jones is well-documented here. Some of those views I agree with. Dumping Saquon in the midst of a playoff berth run would not have been the smart move. The Giants were not a strong team that year but played gritty ball, winning the second-most one-score games that season, right behind Minny.

When a team is scrappy like that, anything can happen. Jones was playing safe, mistake-free ball and Saquon was carrying the load offensively. Whether you or anyone else feels they wouldn't have made a deep run doesn't factor into the equation. You don't tell a person waiting for a heart transplant that they aren't going to get one because they probably won't live that long afterwards. Trading Saquon mid-season would be the equivalent of pulling the plug prematurely. The Giants had life and you just don't make a move to tell the team that we essentially are quitting on this season.

Fans and players view things differently. Forget the fan perspective... the players would have revolted. And I would have supported them 1000%.

I get that a 100% the only counter to that is that he was on an expiring contract and if he wasnt in your longterm plans, then holding him for 8 games, and a possible playoff berth over multiple day 2 picks in hindsight was likely a mistake. At the time of the trade deadline he had already turned down their 3 year offer and so they knew it'd likely take more money than they were willing to offer.

The Giants didnt even offer him a contract  before free agency this year, only the Eagles, Houston, and 2 other teams did. So if they were never going to offer him, and he wasn't in the plans, why not get value for that player instead is all I'm trying to say.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 09:27:54 AMI get that a 100% the only counter to that is that he was on an expiring contract and if he wasnt in your longterm plans, then holding him for 8 games, and a possible playoff berth over multiple day 2 picks in hindsight was likely a mistake. At the time of the trade deadline he had already turned down their 3 year offer and so they knew it'd likely take more money than they were willing to offer.

The Giants didnt even offer him a contract  before free agency this year, only the Eagles, Houston, and 2 other teams did. So if they were never going to offer him, and he wasn't in the plans, why not get value for that player instead is all I'm trying to say.

Let's keep the timelines straight: your first point was that they should have traded him in 2022, the playoff season. Your statement about the Giants not offering him a contract was regarding this past season: two different seasons.

Additionally, this season went off the rails quickly with the early season blowouts and the injuries.

Here's a question for you: if the Giants duplicated their 2022 season, do you think they would have tried to sign Saquon?

Sorry about that

Quote from: T200 on June 13, 2024, 11:30:52 AMLet's keep the timelines straight: your first point was that they should have traded him in 2022, the playoff season. Your statement about the Giants not offering him a contract was regarding this past season: two different seasons.

Additionally, this season went off the rails quickly with the early season blowouts and the injuries.

Here's a question for you: if the Giants duplicated their 2022 season, do you think they would have tried to sign Saquon?

Yeah I was jumping around a bit but to clarify, the Giants didn't extend Barkley before the 2022 season, just like they didn't use the option on Jones. Halfway through 2022 they offered Barkley the 3 year deal, along with offering Love and a few others. Barkley declined the offer and the Giants didn't trade him and ended up signing the franchise tag. They knew when he declined the deal in 2022 that it was likely more than they were willing to pay, but did the franchise tag to try to run it back with an added Waller etc. Like you said it blew up because of injuries, and they still kept him even though they knew they had no intention of resigning him at the end of the season. They had 2 opportunities, trade deadline in 2022, and the one in 2023 and did nothing.

As to your question, I think the success of 2022 almost forced schoen to bring Barkley back on the tag, and had they duplicated 2022 ie beating an ok team in the wild card just to get smashed by an actual playoff team would have been the wake up that Schoen needed to realize that they were still way off and the luxury of a super expensive back is a luxury for teams that don't have glaring needs everywhere. So hopefully not, but I am not Schoen.

AZ brought it up in another thread but this franchise has been snake bitten by constantly having this thought that they are in win now mode when they clearly aren't. I just want them to have an actual rebuild which is what it seems like we are doing now. The 2022 season, and not getting something for Barkley or Mckinney set that rebuild back.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 02:19:48 PMYeah I was jumping around a bit but to clarify, the Giants didn't extend Barkley before the 2022 season, just like they didn't use the option on Jones. Halfway through 2022 they offered Barkley the 3 year deal, along with offering Love and a few others. Barkley declined the offer and the Giants didn't trade him and ended up signing the franchise tag. They knew when he declined the deal in 2022 that it was likely more than they were willing to pay, but did the franchise tag to try to run it back with an added Waller etc. Like you said it blew up because of injuries, and they still kept him even though they knew they had no intention of resigning him at the end of the season. They had 2 opportunities, trade deadline in 2022, and the one in 2023 and did nothing.

As to your question, I think the success of 2022 almost forced schoen to bring Barkley back on the tag, and had they duplicated 2022 ie beating an ok team in the wild card just to get smashed by an actual playoff team would have been the wake up that Schoen needed to realize that they were still way off and the luxury of a super expensive back is a luxury for teams that don't have glaring needs everywhere. So hopefully not, but I am not Schoen.

AZ brought it up in another thread but this franchise has been snake bitten by constantly having this thought that they are in win now mode when they clearly aren't. I just want them to have an actual rebuild which is what it seems like we are doing now. The 2022 season, and not getting something for Barkley or Mckinney set that rebuild back.

J,

Fair enough. I think, had they duplicated the 2022 season, Schoen would have made a reasonable offer to Saquon. It would have shown that there is something there's meat on the bone to build on and the weak areas would have to be strengthened to get to the next level.