26. JOHN MICHAEL SCHMITZ JR., NEW YORK GIANTS
Schmitz struggled as the Giants' starting center in his rookie 2023 season, earning the lowest overall grade at the position, as well as the worst pass-blocking grade. The environment around him wasn't ideal, and the Giants will hope that their former second-round pick can improve in Year 2.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-center-rankings-top-32-2024-nfl-season
Schmitz had a brutal year last year, but he was a rookie (albeit a very old one). I'm happy to give him a full pass on last season, but I need to see a lot of improvement this year for this to avoid being another potential Evan Neal type situation.
Schmitz is 25, and they used a mid second round pick on him. This can't be some long term developmental process. He needs to be at least functional this year, period.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 07:25:40 AMSchmitz had a brutal year last year, but he was a rookie (albeit a very old one). I'm happy to give him a full pass on last season, but I need to see a lot of improvement this year for this to avoid being another potential Evan Neal type situation.
Schmitz is 25, and they used a mid second round pick on him. This can't be some long term developmental process. He needs to be at least functional this year, period.
I was excited when the Giants drafted him. I really expected much better from him as a rookie. As you said, he is an older rookie. That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most. I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 07:44:21 AMI was excited when the Giants drafted him. I really expected much better from him as a rookie. As you said, he is an older rookie. That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most. I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.
I buy the coaching excuse to a degree, but only to a degree. Andrew Thomas managed to become an all-pro at age 23 with all this so-called terrible coaching that keeps getting blamed for the line's ineffectiveness. The fact that he was able to do that proves it can't only be the coaching.
Linemen usually play longer than other position players, so no big deal with his age. What bothers me is how can another excellent draft prospect be a dud in his first year!
Quote from: jimc on June 15, 2024, 08:10:33 AMLinemen usually play longer than other position players, so no big deal with his age. What bothers me is how can another excellent draft prospect be a dud in his first year!
When I bring up his age, it's not because I'm worried about his longevity. It's because it makes it more disappointing that he was as bad as he was last year as a rookie. There's a big difference between struggling as a 20 year old rookie who came out as a sophomore and had little experience in college versus being a 24 year old rookie who played for five seasons at a power five school.
Again, I'm fine giving him a full pass and going with the blame-the-coach defense that many others are, but he needs to be better this year. A lot better.
Not worried at all. New coach, new guards, and improved linemen to work with. He had his "welcome to the big leagues kid" rookie season, whilst saddled between two (let's call them "less than optimal") guards. He is driven to be the best, and he has the perfect body for a center, and more importantly, the perfect mentality. He's had the "I will be the best center" attitude all through college and is smart and in the process of figuring out the NFL. Playing against Dex in practice week after week only helps him with his mission to be the best. He's "all football" and the game is the only thing that he's interested in. Money can't buy his drive and attitude. He won't be 26th again, and I suspect he'll be a perennial Pro Bowler in the future
Just look at his lower half of his body and tell me that's not perfect for center!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTz8F0tt/JMS-DJ-Thomas.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 08:06:43 AMI buy the coaching excuse to a degree, but only to a degree. Andrew Thomas managed to become an all-pro at age 23 with all this so-called terrible coaching that keeps getting blamed for the line's ineffectiveness. The fact that he was able to do that proves it can't only be the coaching.
The first year under Bobby Johnson seemed like an improvement. That is what makes the bad coaching narrative seem to be a bit questionable. There were two things different, though, between 2022 and 2023. The Giants had an outstanding assistant O-line coach in 2022 in Tony Sprano Jr. (who left after the season to coach Colt's line, which did well in 2023). They replaced Tony with the Holy Cross OC, Chris Smith. I am not sure how much a lower-level college coach helped the unit. The Giants also let two veteran linemen walk between 2022 and 2023 when Feliciano and Nick Gates signed with other teams.
The hope is that Carmen Bricillo (who had a track record of success with the Raiders) will do a better job than Johnson. The Giant's new assistant O-line coach is a recently retired player, James Ferentz. Ferentz is the classic, not the most physically talented, but got by on intelligence, work ethic, and grit. He also received coaching from the Pats legendary O-line coach, Dante Scarnecchia (Bricillo also worked with Dante). Admittedly, Marc Columbo and his antics might have soured us a bit on former players being coaches, but I believe he is still the exception, not the rule.
So, I think it's not unreasonable to believe the Giants upgraded the coaching talent for their offensive line. Still, we have seen over the years that coaching talent will only take you so far when it comes to the offensive line, you still need to have competent players.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 08:24:27 AMThe first year under Bobby Johnson seemed like an improvement. That is what makes the bad coaching narrative seem to be a bit questionable. There were two things different, though, between 2022 and 2023. The Giants had an outstanding assistant O-line coach in 2022 in Tony Sprano Jr. (who left after the season to coach Colt's line, which did well in 2023. They replace Tony with the Holy Cross OC, Chris Smith. I am not sure how much a lower-level college coach helped the unit. The Giants also let two veteran linemen walk between 2022 and 2023 when Feliciano and Nick Gates signed with other teams.
The hope is that Carmen Bricillo (who had a track record of success with the Raiders) will do a better job than Johnson. The Giant's new assistant O-line coach is a recently retired player, James Ferentz. Ferentz is the classic, not the most physically talented, but got by on intelligence, work ethic, and grit. He also received coaching from the Pats legendary O-line coach, Dante Scarnecchia (Bricillo also worked with Dante). Admittedly, Marc Columbo and his antics might have soured us a bit on former players being coaches, but I believe he is still the exception, not the rule.
So, I think it's not unreasonable to believe the Giants upgraded the coaching talent for their offensive line. Still, we have seen over the years that coaching talent will only take you so far when it comes to the offensive line, you still need to have competent players.
This is very good in depth color on the O line coaching situation beyond just the head O line coach. Thanks.
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 07:44:21 AMI was excited when the Giants drafted him. I really expected much better from him as a rookie. As you said, he is an older rookie. That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most. I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.
Wasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect? If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable. I may be wrong on this.
Quote from: Philosophers on June 15, 2024, 09:55:23 AMWasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect? If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable. I may be wrong on this.
I believe you are correct, Joe
Quote from: Philosophers on June 15, 2024, 09:55:23 AMWasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect? If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable. I may be wrong on this.
Joe, his first year was completely predictable; in short, he needed a year to get stronger. Heck, our starting QB looked more capable of playing center last year. I think he'll be much better as a pass blocker this season; I'm still skeptical of his ability to move NT out of the A-Gaps.
If his upper body strength was this big of a liability, how was this not picked up by scouts, including ours? Isn't strength a fairly black and white, easy thing to measure?
It's concerning to me that at 24 years old and 5 year of being in a serious Big 10 program, he came into the draft this physically weak. He couldn't get to the right strength in 5 years at school by age 24? But now he's going to play catch-up in one offseason?
It all sounds a little suspect to me. I hope it works out, as we need him. But I'm not sure how I understand how this was all missed last spring.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 11:25:44 AMIf his upper body strength was this big of a liability, how was this not picked up by scouts, including ours? Isn't strength a fairly black and white, easy thing to measure?
It's concerning to me that at 24 years old and 5 year of being in a serious Big 10 program, he came into the draft this physically weak. He couldn't get to the right strength in 5 years at school by age 24? But now he's going to play catch-up in one offseason?
It all sounds a little suspect to me. I hope it works out, as we need him. But I'm not sure how I understand how this was all missed last spring.
JMS had 26 reps on the bench. That is considered good but not great for an NFL center
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 11:44:25 AMJMS had 26 reps on the bench. That is considered good but not great for an NFL center
There must be other upper body strength testing than just bench reps at the combine though, no?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 12:02:21 PMThere must be other upper body strength testing than just bench reps at the combine though, no?
That is really the only standard and available direct measure of strength. Teams no doubt quiz prospects and college staffs for things like how much the squat or maybe deadlift. Beyond that, scouts view the game tape to gauge their functional on field strength. If memory serves, the book on JMS coming out was he wasn't the biggest, strongest, or most athletic (although he wasn't deficient), but he was smart, hard working, and high character. As mentioned, he was a high floor, modest ceiling type.
This discussion reminds me a bit of the Weston Richburg discussions as he was going into his second year. Granted, Richburg was playing out of position as a rookie. But he was also limited against stronger players and wasn't a particularly high ceiling guy. Still, he made a pretty big leap in year 2 and was an above average player for the Giants for a couple years before all the injures. I'm hoping JMS makes a similar jump this season. This team can't afford to have both Neal and JMS bust.
If upper body strength was a good measure, Mitch Petrus would have replaced O'Hara, Diehl, or Snee in a heartbeat. Petrus was the poster child for "strong offensive guard". Not sure if he ever saw the field, despite pleas from thousands of fans. That's because O'Hara, Diehl, Snee, were "football smart" and knew how to leverage and out think their opponent. Petrus, not so much
When it comes to offensive linemen, it's what's between the ears that sifts the wheat from the chaff
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on June 15, 2024, 12:37:22 PMIf upper body strength was a good measure, Mitch Petrus would have replaced O'Hara, Diehl, or Snee in a heartbeat. Petrus was the poster child for "strong offensive guard". Not sure if he ever saw the field, despite pleas from thousands of fans. That's because O'Hara, Diehl, Snee, were "football smart" and knew how to leverage and out think their opponent. Petrus, not so much
When it comes to offensive linemen, it's what's between the ears that sifts the wheat from the chaff
Upper body strength alone is useless. But when you don't have it, it becomes a chink in your armor. The bigger stronger DTs will just keep bull rushing you and blowing up the pocket, forcing the offense to double team which creates mismatched elsewhere. Lack of functional strength is a huge liability on the IOL.
Pretty darned bad. I'm getting heartburn just from reading this article (https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/06/15/new-york-giants-john-michael-schmitz-ranked-among-nfl-worst-starting-centers/) in which he is ranked 26th.
This doesn't make him a bust...yet. It was his first season and the guard positions on either side of him were disastrous. There was also this nugget about the Giants being "the second-worst offensive line in NFL history, allowing 85 sacks which led to the injury of all three quarterbacks."
I knew we were bad, but not second-worst all-time bad.
Tyler Linderbaum is a good one to discuss/compare. In college he was 290 and many people here said he would get manhandled by stronger NFL DL. He put on like 10 more pounds, got stronger but used his great wrestling background to optimize leverage and in year 1 in the NFL was good and is considered ine of the best centers. What can JMS learn from that?
between Schmitz and Evans, we have a lot of ground to make up
a lot of draft capstal used on these two
who is picking these
Schmitz and Neal were regarding as the best prospects at their position in the draft, not like there was huge question marks coming out about them.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 16, 2024, 07:03:43 PMSchmitz and Neal were regarding as the best prospects at their position in the draft, not like there was huge question marks coming out about them.
There were questions about Neal's balance (which is not a minor issue for offensive linemen) coming out. JMS was clean, with the biggest question being his ceiling
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 17, 2024, 07:52:37 AMThere were questions about Neal's balance (which is not a minor issue for offensive linemen) coming out. JMS was clean, with the biggest question being his ceiling
I remember because I was a bigger fan of Ekwonu than Neal, but I was just saying that the selection of Neal was universally praised as a great pick.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 17, 2024, 01:02:10 PMI remember because I was a bigger fan of Ekwonu than Neal, but I was just saying that the selection of Neal was universally praised as a great pick.
I agree, Neal was considered the best or one of the best coming out, despite the concerns. The Giants got nothing but praise for the pick