Big Blue Huddle

26. JOHN MICHAEL SCHMITZ JR., NEW YORK GIANTS
Schmitz struggled as the Giants' starting center in his rookie 2023 season, earning the lowest overall grade at the position, as well as the worst pass-blocking grade. The environment around him wasn't ideal, and the Giants will hope that their former second-round pick can improve in Year 2.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-center-rankings-top-32-2024-nfl-season

Schmitz had a brutal year last year, but he was a rookie (albeit a very old one). I'm happy to give him a full pass on last season, but I need to see a lot of improvement this year for this to avoid being another potential Evan Neal type situation.

Schmitz is 25, and they used a mid second round pick on him. This can't be some long term developmental process. He needs to be at least functional this year, period.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 07:25:40 AMSchmitz had a brutal year last year, but he was a rookie (albeit a very old one). I'm happy to give him a full pass on last season, but I need to see a lot of improvement this year for this to avoid being another potential Evan Neal type situation.

Schmitz is 25, and they used a mid second round pick on him. This can't be some long term developmental process. He needs to be at least functional this year, period.

I was excited when the Giants drafted him.  I really expected much better from him as a rookie.  As you said, he is an older rookie.  That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most.  I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 07:44:21 AMI was excited when the Giants drafted him.  I really expected much better from him as a rookie.  As you said, he is an older rookie.  That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most.  I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.

I buy the coaching excuse to a degree, but only to a degree. Andrew Thomas managed to become an all-pro at age 23 with all this so-called terrible coaching that keeps getting blamed for the line's ineffectiveness. The fact that he was able to do that proves it can't only be the coaching.

Linemen usually play longer than other position players, so no big deal with his age.  What bothers me is how can another excellent draft prospect be a dud in his first year!

Quote from: jimc on June 15, 2024, 08:10:33 AMLinemen usually play longer than other position players, so no big deal with his age.  What bothers me is how can another excellent draft prospect be a dud in his first year!

When I bring up his age, it's not because I'm worried about his longevity. It's because it makes it more disappointing that he was as bad as he was last year as a rookie. There's a big difference between struggling as a 20 year old rookie who came out as a sophomore and had little experience in college versus being a 24 year old rookie who played for five seasons at a power five school.

Again, I'm fine giving him a full pass and going with the blame-the-coach defense that many others are, but he needs to be better this year. A lot better.

Not worried at all. New coach, new guards, and improved linemen to work with. He had his "welcome to the big leagues kid" rookie season, whilst saddled between two (let's call them "less than optimal") guards. He is driven to be the best, and he has the perfect body for a center, and more importantly, the perfect mentality. He's had the "I will be the best center" attitude all through college and is smart and in the process of figuring out the NFL. Playing against Dex in practice week after week only helps him with his mission to be the best. He's "all football" and the game is the only thing that he's interested in. Money can't buy his drive and attitude. He won't be 26th again, and I suspect he'll be a perennial Pro Bowler in the future

Just look at his lower half of his body and tell me that's not perfect for center!

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 08:06:43 AMI buy the coaching excuse to a degree, but only to a degree. Andrew Thomas managed to become an all-pro at age 23 with all this so-called terrible coaching that keeps getting blamed for the line's ineffectiveness. The fact that he was able to do that proves it can't only be the coaching.

The first year under Bobby Johnson seemed like an improvement.  That is what makes the bad coaching narrative seem to be a bit questionable.  There were two things different, though, between 2022 and 2023.  The Giants had an outstanding assistant O-line coach in 2022 in Tony Sprano Jr. (who left after the season to coach Colt's line, which did well in 2023).  They replaced Tony with the Holy Cross OC, Chris Smith.  I am not sure how much a lower-level college coach helped the unit.  The Giants also let two veteran linemen walk between 2022 and 2023 when Feliciano and Nick Gates signed with other teams.

The hope is that Carmen Bricillo (who had a track record of success with the Raiders) will do a better job than Johnson.  The Giant's new assistant O-line coach is a recently retired player, James Ferentz.  Ferentz is the classic, not the most physically talented, but got by on intelligence, work ethic, and grit.  He also received coaching from the Pats legendary O-line coach, Dante Scarnecchia (Bricillo also worked with Dante).  Admittedly, Marc Columbo and his antics might have soured us a bit on former players being coaches, but I believe he is still the exception, not the rule. 

So, I think it's not unreasonable to believe the Giants upgraded the coaching talent for their offensive line.  Still, we have seen over the years that coaching talent will only take you so far when it comes to the offensive line, you still need to have competent players.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 08:24:27 AMThe first year under Bobby Johnson seemed like an improvement.  That is what makes the bad coaching narrative seem to be a bit questionable.  There were two things different, though, between 2022 and 2023.  The Giants had an outstanding assistant O-line coach in 2022 in Tony Sprano Jr. (who left after the season to coach Colt's line, which did well in 2023.  They replace Tony with the Holy Cross OC, Chris Smith.  I am not sure how much a lower-level college coach helped the unit.  The Giants also let two veteran linemen walk between 2022 and 2023 when Feliciano and Nick Gates signed with other teams.

The hope is that Carmen Bricillo (who had a track record of success with the Raiders) will do a better job than Johnson.  The Giant's new assistant O-line coach is a recently retired player, James Ferentz.  Ferentz is the classic, not the most physically talented, but got by on intelligence, work ethic, and grit.  He also received coaching from the Pats legendary O-line coach, Dante Scarnecchia (Bricillo also worked with Dante).  Admittedly, Marc Columbo and his antics might have soured us a bit on former players being coaches, but I believe he is still the exception, not the rule. 

So, I think it's not unreasonable to believe the Giants upgraded the coaching talent for their offensive line.  Still, we have seen over the years that coaching talent will only take you so far when it comes to the offensive line, you still need to have competent players.

This is very good in depth color on the O line coaching situation beyond just the head O line coach. Thanks.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 07:44:21 AMI was excited when the Giants drafted him.  I really expected much better from him as a rookie.  As you said, he is an older rookie.  That means he was stronger and better prepared for his first season than most.  I really hope that everyone is correct about the main issue with the O-line being last year's coaching.

Wasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect?  If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable.  I may be wrong on this.

Quote from: Philosophers on June 15, 2024, 09:55:23 AMWasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect?  If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable.  I may be wrong on this.

I believe you are correct, Joe

Quote from: Philosophers on June 15, 2024, 09:55:23 AMWasn't he supposedly a high floor/lower ceiling type prospect?  If yes he may not offer the enormous leap in development we need him to get to but may be more serviceable.  I may be wrong on this.

Joe, his first year was completely predictable; in short, he needed a year to get stronger.  Heck, our starting QB looked more capable of playing center last year.  I think he'll be much better as a pass blocker this season; I'm still skeptical of his ability to move NT out of the A-Gaps. 

If his upper body strength was this big of a liability, how was this not picked up by scouts, including ours? Isn't strength a fairly black and white, easy thing to measure?

It's concerning to me that at 24 years old and 5 year of being in a serious Big 10 program, he came into the draft this physically weak. He couldn't get to the right strength in 5 years at school by age 24? But now he's going to play catch-up in one offseason?

It all sounds a little suspect to me. I hope it works out, as we need him. But I'm not sure how I understand how this was all missed last spring.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 15, 2024, 11:25:44 AMIf his upper body strength was this big of a liability, how was this not picked up by scouts, including ours? Isn't strength a fairly black and white, easy thing to measure?

It's concerning to me that at 24 years old and 5 year of being in a serious Big 10 program, he came into the draft this physically weak. He couldn't get to the right strength in 5 years at school by age 24? But now he's going to play catch-up in one offseason?

It all sounds a little suspect to me. I hope it works out, as we need him. But I'm not sure how I understand how this was all missed last spring.

JMS had 26 reps on the bench.  That is considered good but not great for an NFL center

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 15, 2024, 11:44:25 AMJMS had 26 reps on the bench.  That is considered good but not great for an NFL center

There must be other upper body strength testing than just bench reps at the combine though, no?