I listened to a few programs, so I can't say for sure which one I heard these things:
1) The Eagles' season almost went off the rails twice but it was Saquan Barkley's leadership and efforts that held the team together.
2) Brian Daboll is developing a reputation in the league for pointing fingers rather than taking accountability.
In the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.
IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.
It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:26:55 AMIn the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.
IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.
It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.
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Andrew,
It's sort of funny; I think it could be more the other way around. When you consider the glaring lack of talent on this team despite middle-tier free agent spending and tons of draft capital, not having a much more talented roster does not speak well of the job Joe Schoen has done since his number one task is talent acquisition.
Defense looked good last year under Wink. But offense is still a mess that's Daboll's side of the ball. Daboll will throw others under the bus he is know for it lacks self awareness and accountability on his end. His job is to coach and develop players as well as manage his staff to make sure the players are getting developed and improving. This teams staff and players have regressed.
There's acquiring talent and then there's developing talent.
It depends on where you think the ball was dropped.
Example: Nearly all fans and pundits thought Schoen hit it out of the park with Thibs and Neal. So were they really both a miss of historic proportion? Or have they not been coached properly from day one.
One of the areas that has me really perplexed in coaching these days and I've called this out with DJ, I don't care how high you're drafted you should never be handed the starting job.
Some of the best 1st round players ever dating back to the seventies, yes I'm an old head, were required to WIN the starting job. IMHO it's a HUGE miss that it's rarely done anymore.
But if you look at some of the best coaches in the league today: Tomlin and Reid come to mind, they still require winning the starting role.
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Quote from: Giantleap56 on January 09, 2025, 09:39:50 AMDefense looked good last year under Wink. But offense is still a mess that's Daboll's side of the ball. Daboll will throw others under the bus he is know for it lacks self awareness and accountability on his end. His job is to coach and develop players as well as manage his staff to make sure the players are getting developed and improving. This teams staff and players have regressed.
Under Wink (who didn't have Brian Burns) 2023
Yards per game- 361.7
Points per game- 23.9
Turnovers- 31
Under Bowen 2024
Yards per game- 346.8
Points per game- 24.4
Turnovers- 23
I don't think the defense improved with Wink's departure, if anything, considering the additions of Burns, Philips, and Nubin at the loss of McKinney and the injury to Dex, you would have expected some improvement in defensive poduction
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:48:03 AMUnder Wink (who didn't have Brian Burns) 2023
Yards per game- 361.7
Points per game- 23.9
Turnovers- 31
Under Bowen 2024
Yards per game- 346.8
Points per game- 24.4
Turnovers- 23
I don't think the defense improved with Wink's departure, if anything, considering the additions of Burns, Philips, and Nubin at the loss of McKinney and the injury to Dex, you would have expected some improvement in defensive poduction
I don't think Shane did a bad job initially felt the Giants were getting after the QB lead the league in sacks. Injury to KT and Dex was huge. As for the secondary they don't have ball hawks having McKinney would have helped. But the Schoen is in the business of trying to make his team and get away from players that aren't his instead of offering them contracts.
As far as run defense it wasn't good just having Dex and to plug the run isn't ideal. Need more on the line a big time run stopper.
The run defense was bad up the middle when Dex wasn't on the field and also got shredded on the edges. I don't know exactly what the problems are but I don't think getting another wide body in the middle is going to fix the run defense completely. It will certainly help when Dex is on the sidelines, but there were plenty 5+ yard runs where the defense failed to seal the edge.
Sometimes it looked like guys got caught peaking inside, sometimes it looked like gap assignments were blown and others that guys just got blocked/beat.
I feel like there is a certain amount sentiment to draft a IDL early to help sure up the run defense. While I agree that they need to upgrade their defensive interior, I don't think it needs to be an early pick and I don't think any IDL is going to help stop the runs to the outside.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2025, 10:08:41 AMThe run defense was bad up the middle when Dex wasn't on the field and also got shredded on the edges. I don't know exactly what the problems are but I don't think getting another wide body in the middle is going to fix the run defense completely. It will certainly help when Dex is on the sidelines, but there were plenty 5+ yard runs where the defense failed to seal the edge.
Sometimes it looked like guys got caught peaking inside, sometimes it looked like gap assignments were blown and others that guys just got blocked/beat.
I feel like there is a certain amount sentiment to draft a IDL early to help sure up the run defense. While I agree that they need to upgrade their defensive interior, I don't think it needs to be an early pick and I don't think any IDL is going to help stop the runs to the outside.
I think part of the problem is that the Giants never replaced Leonard Williams. To make things worse, they also let A'Shawn Robinson walk as well. So they were working with the undersized and undrafted Baby Bison and two low-round DTs that Wink liked in Davidson and Riley.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:26:55 AMIn the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.
IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.
It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I think the opposite. I think Daboll is doing the best that can be expected with the roster he has been given.
One thing I heard on Tiki and Evan yesterday afternoon. A caller called in with the thought that Daboll and Schoen did not want Jones even after 2022. Thinks Mara insisted. Pointed to how much it seems like Mara loves Jones. Tiki thinks it is possible as he was seen originally as a more athletic Eli. Point caller made was that when he was extended following 2022, it was a compromise on both. "You want him, we dont. We will do this, but we want to set it up so we can get out after 2 years as it applies to the cap, and that if it goes south, we are not going to be asked to fall on our swords...." Obviously, no idea how it all went down, but I can definitely see it having some merit.
Quote from: coggs on January 09, 2025, 10:58:25 AMOne thing I heard on Tiki and Evan yesterday afternoon. A caller called in with the thought that Daboll and Schoen did not want Jones even after 2022. Thinks Mara insisted. Pointed to how much it seems like Mara loves Jones. Tiki thinks it is possible as he was seen originally as a more athletic Eli. Point caller made was that when he was extended following 2022, it was a compromise on both. "You want him, we dont. We will do this, but we want to set it up so we can get out after 2 years as it applies to the cap, and that if it goes south, we are not going to be asked to fall on our swords...." Obviously, no idea how it all went down, but I can definitely see it having some merit.
In benefit of hindsight, the best thing the team could have done was extend DJ's 5th-year option, giving the team two years to evaluate him rather than one.
It was suggested at the time the team would have been better served letting DJ hit the open market, and the team would match the best offer. While that sounded like a good plan, from DJ's camp, that would have been seen as a slight, and this plan requires some goodwill by the player to come back and let the Giants match an offer.
To the point you made, half-measures seem to be the Giants' Achilles heel. Either Schoen had enough faith to sign DJ to a proper 3 or 4 year veteran contract, or he tagged him and dealt with the contract after another year of data (if they weren't sure about DJ). In hindsight, the half-measure contract, with a 2 year out, was less than ideal. The Giants are dealing with $22 million in dead cap. They had to deal with benching him due to the injury clause, and I heard reports DJ was not happy that the team signed him to what was effectively only a two-year deal.
This team needs to move with more conviction. Be it Mara properly endorsing the men he decided to keep or the Schoen either tagging DJ or going all in; these half measures are making things more difficult
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 11:06:01 AMIn benefit of hindsight, the best thing the team could have done was extend DJ's 5th-year option, giving the team two years to evaluate him rather than one.
It was suggested at the time the team would have been better served letting DJ hit the open market, and the team would match the best offer. While that sounded like a good plan, from DJ's camp, that would have been seen as a slight, and this plan requires some goodwill by the player to come back and let the Giants match an offer.
To the point you made, half-measures seem to be the Giants' Achilles heel. Either Schoen had enough faith to sign DJ to a proper 3 or 4 year veteran contract, or he tagged him and dealt with the contract after another year of data (if they weren't sure about DJ). In hindsight, the half-measure contract, with a 2 year out, was less than ideal. The Giants are dealing with $22 million in dead cap. They had to deal with benching him due to the injury clause, and I heard reports DJ was not happy that the team signed him to what was effectively only a two-year deal.
This team needs to move with more conviction. Be it Mara properly endorsing the men he decided to keep or the Schoen either tagging DJ or going all in; these half measures are making things more difficult
I don't think they could have convinced Mara to just let Jones walk after that 2022 season and Barkley also didn't want to be there anymore so with only 1 franchise tag they had to do something to keep the boss happy. Yes, ideally he'd have gotten no contract at all but since they didn't much of a choice the 2 year deal was the best compromise they could have. Thank GOD they didn't give him a real 4 year deal.
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 09, 2025, 11:44:02 AMI don't think they could have convinced Mara to just let Jones walk after that 2022 season and Barkley also didn't want to be there anymore so with only 1 franchise tag they had to do something to keep the boss happy. Yes, ideally he'd have gotten no contract at all but since they didn't much of a choice the 2 year deal was the best compromise they could have. Thank GOD they didn't give him a real 4 year deal.
If you objectively examine the available evidence, there isn't much to support the idea that Mara loved or was very fond of Daniel Jones. Did Mara say good things about Jones? Yes, but what owner isn't going to be publicly supportive of his starting QB?
The only player we know Mara was very fond of was Barkley because he said as much on Hard Knocks. Despite that effect, Mara allowed Schoen to part ways with him (even knowing it would likely help a rival).
I will say this: I think the Giants winning a playoff game in 2022, combined with a decade of futility, made it a tough sell for all involved to let him walk without a viable replacement.
Part of my support of Daniel Jones was based on Daboll's reputation as a QB guru, and if he endorsed Jones enough for the team to ride with him, then Jones must have shown him enough that he believed he could be a franchise QB. If Daboll didn't believe Jones was a franchise QB and all he could do was coach like hell to hide his limitation, who on earth thought it was a good idea to sign him even to the two-year contract?
It's a bizarre situation that feeds on itself.
One could argue that Daboll is doing his best with the assembled talent.
One could also argue that Schoen gave Daboll enough talent that the record should be better.
In those last frantic hours before the franchise tag deadline, it seems obvious they went the wrong way with it. Shoulda tagged Jones and signed Saquon to the multi-year deal. That's what I was pushing for but ob la di, ob la da. In the heat of those frantic negotiations, our GM swung and missed. Never a great sign when the GM makes a bad call when the heat is turned up the highest.
Quote from: Hadron on January 09, 2025, 12:01:44 PMIt's a bizarre situation that feeds on itself.
One could argue that Daboll is doing his best with the assembled talent.
One could also argue that Schoen gave Daboll enough talent that the record should be better.
In my opinion, both are true and the proof is in the dismal records the past two seasons. If Schoen gave Daboll more talent, maybe they would have won five or six games this year, his coaching alone lost them plenty. If Daboll was a better coach and had the lousy talent given to him by Schoen, maybe also they would have overachieved and won six or seven games as good coaches can sometimes do with marginal talent. Because they both were historically bad, it's pretty amazing they are getting another shot.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 09, 2025, 12:06:36 PMIn those last frantic hours before the franchise tag deadline, it seems obvious they went the wrong way with it. Shoulda tagged Jones and signed Saquon to the multi-year deal. That's what I was pushing for but ob la di, ob la da. In the heat of those frantic negotiations, our GM swung and missed. Never a great sign when the GM makes a bad call when the heat is turned up the highest.
You may well be correct. I will say that the deck is stacked against Giants' GMs, as long as Ronnie Barnes is with the team. I didn't have a problem letting Barkley go because he had proven injury prone and in his last season with NYG, he appeared to have lost a step. He goes to the Eagles and their first-rate program, and he is healthy, and even though he is an older running back (by NFL standards), he got faster.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 11:50:23 AMIf you objectively examine the available evidence, there isn't much to support the idea that Mara loved or was very fond of Daniel Jones. Did Mara say good things about Jones? Yes, but what owner isn't going to be publicly supportive of his starting QB?
The only player we know Mara was very fond of was Barkley because he said as much on Hard Knocks. Despite that effect, Mara allowed Schoen to part ways with him (even knowing it would likely help a rival).
I will say this: I think the Giants winning a playoff game in 2022, combined with a decade of futility, made it a tough sell for all involved to let him walk without a viable replacement.
Part of my support of Daniel Jones was based on Daboll's reputation as a QB guru, and if he endorsed Jones enough for the team to ride with him, then Jones must have shown him enough that he believed he could be a franchise QB. If Daboll didn't believe Jones was a franchise QB and all he could do was coach like hell to hide his limitation, who on earth thought it was a good idea to sign him even to the two-year contract?
What owner says "we did everything we could to screw him up" about a player he doesn't much like?
Not to mention if you look at the evidence of Schoen/Daboll not even bothering to pick up that 5th year it seems pretty clear they didn't want him around. So who did?
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 09, 2025, 12:18:23 PMWhat owner says "we did everything we could to screw him up" about a player he doesn't much like?
Not to mention if you look at the evidence of Schoen/Daboll not even bothering to pick up that 5th year it seems pretty clear they didn't want him around. So who did?
When Mara made that comment, there was rare universal agreement among former NFL commentators and pundits alike. So, what can you really glean from a comment that falls under the "Captain Obvious" banner?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 11:06:01 AMIn benefit of hindsight, the best thing the team could have done was extend DJ's 5th-year option, giving the team two years to evaluate him rather than one.
It was suggested at the time the team would have been better served letting DJ hit the open market, and the team would match the best offer. While that sounded like a good plan, from DJ's camp, that would have been seen as a slight, and this plan requires some goodwill by the player to come back and let the Giants match an offer.
To the point you made, half-measures seem to be the Giants' Achilles heel. Either Schoen had enough faith to sign DJ to a proper 3 or 4 year veteran contract, or he tagged him and dealt with the contract after another year of data (if they weren't sure about DJ). In hindsight, the half-measure contract, with a 2 year out, was less than ideal. The Giants are dealing with $22 million in dead cap. They had to deal with benching him due to the injury clause, and I heard reports DJ was not happy that the team signed him to what was effectively only a two-year deal.
This team needs to move with more conviction. Be it Mara properly endorsing the men he decided to keep or the Schoen either tagging DJ or going all in; these half measures are making things more difficult
I disagree to an extent, with the benefit of hindsight - the best thing to do would have been to let Jones walk after the Divisional Round and start the re-build properly. They picked up Dexter's option almost immediately, they clearly weren't sold on Jones and told him to play out his deal. A year later there were protracted negotiations where Jones was initially seeking more than 45million a year (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/report-daniel-jones-wants-more-than-45-million-per-year), I don't think there would have been any good will and let the Giants match (and neither should their be, Jones owed the Giants nothing). Perhaps picking up the option would have been better, perhaps not.
I believed at the time that letting him walk would have been the best thing, and in hindsight, I still think that was the case. Of course, rather than the deal, they could have franchised him - which would mean losing Barkley immediately and would need a raft of other cap gymnastics to deal with the $37mil hit, which to be honest, might be unrealistic.
I don't want to get into who's responsible - Mara, Schoen or both - in my opinion they both have their mitts over it. But Dab's (in my view) is the least culpable of the three of them. His voice is of course important, but he doesn't sign off on deals - he can make suggestions.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 09, 2025, 12:37:25 PMI disagree to an extent, with the benefit of hindsight - the best thing to do would have been to let Jones walk after the Divisional Round and start the re-build properly. They picked up Dexter's option almost immediately, they clearly weren't sold on Jones and told him to play out his deal. A year later there were protracted negotiations where Jones was initially seeking more than 45million a year (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/report-daniel-jones-wants-more-than-45-million-per-year), I don't think there would have been any good will and let the Giants match (and neither should their be, Jones owed the Giants nothing). Perhaps picking up the option would have been better, perhaps not.
I believed at the time that letting him walk would have been the best thing, and in hindsight, I still think that was the case. Of course, rather than the deal, they could have franchised him - which would mean losing Barkley immediately and would need a raft of other cap gymnastics to deal with the $37mil hit, which to be honest, might be unrealistic.
I don't want to get into who's responsible - Mara, Schoen or both - in my opinion they both have their mitts over it. But Dab's (in my view) is the least culpable of the three of them. His voice is of course important, but he doesn't sign off on deals - he can make suggestions.
Ed,
To the point about Daboll endorsing signing Daniel Jones to the contract, one of the justifications for keeping Schoen and Daboll for another season (according to Mara) is how well they work together. If a GM and Head Coach are working well together, I can't see a possible scenario where the GM would sign the most important single player on the team to a veteran contract unless the head coach was completely on board. Heck, even if they weren't working closely together, I can't see how a GM would try and force a QB on his head coach, at least a GM that was remotely competent.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 12:41:49 PMEd,
To the point about Daboll endorsing signing Daniel Jones to the contract, one of the justifications for keeping Schoen and Daboll for another season (according to Mara) is how well they work together. If a GM and Head Coach are working well together, I can't see a possible scenario where the GM would sign the most important single player on the team to a veteran contract unless the head coach was completely on board. Heck, even if they weren't working closely together, I can't see how a GM would try and force a QB on his head coach, at least a GM that was remotely competent.
Yup, I get it.
I just don't see a first time HC pushing back with any real conviction to his boss, when he was thought of as a 'QB guru'.
But this is all water under the bridge now. And we are paying the price.
While finger-pointing and blaming may be the only thing which interests us currently, it is at best little more than a self-serving, valueless exercise at this point in 2025. Moreover, it's not like we are any good at it nor that it matters in the least re decisions made and to be made.
So, let's stow the self-indulgence until at least the start of the League Year on 3/12 when FA and Trades should get our sphincters twitching well before they go full spas mode on April 24-26.
Cheers!
Quote from: Hadron on January 09, 2025, 12:01:44 PMIt's a bizarre situation that feeds on itself.
One could argue that Daboll is doing his best with the assembled talent.
One could also argue that Schoen gave Daboll enough talent that the record should be better.
even when healthy early in the year, and the oline playing around average, we still sucked. that should pretty much tell you everything you need to know. it's been a long time of even a remotely functional offense. and getting worse every year. talent is talent sure, but you watch EVERY other team around the league, and its at least somewhat functional most of the time, even the really bad teams. did we have a single dominant game this year? i would say no. it's probably a 50/50 thing, but we should have played at least SLIGHTLY better than we did.