Big Blue Huddle

I listened to a few programs, so I can't say for sure which one I heard these things:


1)  The Eagles' season almost went off the rails twice but it was Saquan Barkley's leadership and efforts that held the team together.

2) Brian Daboll is developing a reputation in the league for pointing fingers rather than taking accountability.   

In the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.

IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.

It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.


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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:26:55 AMIn the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.

IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.

It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.


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Andrew,

It's sort of funny; I think it could be more the other way around.  When you consider the glaring lack of talent on this team despite middle-tier free agent spending and tons of draft capital, not having a much more talented roster does not speak well of the job Joe Schoen has done since his number one task is talent acquisition.

Defense looked good last year under Wink. But offense is still a mess that's Daboll's side of the ball. Daboll will throw others under the bus he is know for it lacks self awareness and accountability on his end. His job is to coach and develop players as well as manage his staff to make sure the players are getting developed and improving. This teams staff and players have regressed.

There's acquiring talent and then there's developing talent.

It depends on where you think the ball was dropped.

Example: Nearly all fans and pundits thought Schoen hit it out of the park with Thibs and Neal. So were they really both a miss of historic proportion? Or have they not been coached properly from day one.

One of the areas that has me really perplexed in coaching these days and I've called this out with DJ, I don't care how high you're drafted you should never be handed the starting job.

Some of the best 1st round players ever dating back to the seventies, yes I'm an old head, were required to WIN the starting job. IMHO it's a HUGE miss that it's rarely done anymore.

But if you look at some of the best coaches in the league today: Tomlin and Reid come to mind, they still require winning the starting role.


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Quote from: Giantleap56 on January 09, 2025, 09:39:50 AMDefense looked good last year under Wink. But offense is still a mess that's Daboll's side of the ball. Daboll will throw others under the bus he is know for it lacks self awareness and accountability on his end. His job is to coach and develop players as well as manage his staff to make sure the players are getting developed and improving. This teams staff and players have regressed.

Under Wink (who didn't have Brian Burns) 2023

Yards per game- 361.7
Points per game- 23.9
Turnovers- 31

Under Bowen 2024

Yards per game- 346.8
Points per game- 24.4
Turnovers- 23

I don't think the defense improved with Wink's departure, if anything, considering the additions of Burns, Philips, and Nubin at the loss of McKinney and the injury to Dex, you would have expected some improvement in defensive poduction

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:48:03 AMUnder Wink (who didn't have Brian Burns) 2023

Yards per game- 361.7
Points per game- 23.9
Turnovers- 31

Under Bowen 2024

Yards per game- 346.8
Points per game- 24.4
Turnovers- 23

I don't think the defense improved with Wink's departure, if anything, considering the additions of Burns, Philips, and Nubin at the loss of McKinney and the injury to Dex, you would have expected some improvement in defensive poduction

I don't think Shane did a bad job initially felt the Giants were getting after the QB lead the league in sacks. Injury to KT and Dex was huge. As for the secondary they don't have ball hawks having McKinney would have helped. But the Schoen is in the business of trying to make his team and get away from players that aren't his instead of offering them contracts.
As far as run defense it wasn't good just having Dex and to plug the run isn't ideal. Need more on the line a big time run stopper.

The run defense was bad up the middle when Dex wasn't on the field and also got shredded on the edges.  I don't know exactly what the problems are but I don't think getting another wide body in the middle is going to fix the run defense completely. It will certainly help when Dex is on the sidelines, but there were plenty 5+ yard runs where the defense failed to seal the edge. 

Sometimes it looked like guys got caught peaking inside, sometimes it looked like gap assignments were blown and others that guys just got blocked/beat. 

I feel like there is a certain amount sentiment to draft a IDL early to help sure up the run defense.  While I agree that they need to upgrade their defensive interior, I don't think it needs to be an early pick and I don't think any IDL is going to help stop the runs to the outside.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2025, 10:08:41 AMThe run defense was bad up the middle when Dex wasn't on the field and also got shredded on the edges.  I don't know exactly what the problems are but I don't think getting another wide body in the middle is going to fix the run defense completely. It will certainly help when Dex is on the sidelines, but there were plenty 5+ yard runs where the defense failed to seal the edge. 

Sometimes it looked like guys got caught peaking inside, sometimes it looked like gap assignments were blown and others that guys just got blocked/beat. 

I feel like there is a certain amount sentiment to draft a IDL early to help sure up the run defense.  While I agree that they need to upgrade their defensive interior, I don't think it needs to be an early pick and I don't think any IDL is going to help stop the runs to the outside.

I think part of the problem is that the Giants never replaced Leonard Williams.  To make things worse, they also let A'Shawn Robinson walk as well.  So they were working with the undersized and undrafted Baby Bison and two low-round DTs that Wink liked in Davidson and Riley.

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 09, 2025, 09:26:55 AMIn the end Daboll will cost Schoen his job.

IMO, Schoen should have been recruiting a HC starting week nine.

It's the type of leadership Mara needs because he knows he cannot do it himself.


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I think the opposite.  I think Daboll is doing the best that can be expected with the roster he has been given.

One thing I heard on Tiki and Evan yesterday afternoon.  A caller called in with the thought that Daboll and Schoen did not want Jones even after 2022.  Thinks Mara insisted.  Pointed to how much it seems like Mara loves Jones.  Tiki thinks it is possible as he was seen originally as a more athletic Eli.  Point caller made was that when he was extended following 2022, it was a compromise on both.  "You want him, we dont.  We will do this, but we want to set it up so we can get out after 2 years as it applies to the cap, and that if it goes south, we are not going to be asked to fall on our swords...."  Obviously, no idea how it all went down, but I can definitely see it having some merit. 

Quote from: coggs on January 09, 2025, 10:58:25 AMOne thing I heard on Tiki and Evan yesterday afternoon.  A caller called in with the thought that Daboll and Schoen did not want Jones even after 2022.  Thinks Mara insisted.  Pointed to how much it seems like Mara loves Jones.  Tiki thinks it is possible as he was seen originally as a more athletic Eli.  Point caller made was that when he was extended following 2022, it was a compromise on both.  "You want him, we dont.  We will do this, but we want to set it up so we can get out after 2 years as it applies to the cap, and that if it goes south, we are not going to be asked to fall on our swords...."  Obviously, no idea how it all went down, but I can definitely see it having some merit. 

In benefit of hindsight, the best thing the team could have done was extend DJ's 5th-year option, giving the team two years to evaluate him rather than one.

It was suggested at the time the team would have been better served letting DJ hit the open market, and the team would match the best offer.  While that sounded like a good plan, from DJ's camp, that would have been seen as a slight, and this plan requires some goodwill by the player to come back and let the Giants match an offer.

To the point you made, half-measures seem to be the Giants' Achilles heel.  Either Schoen had enough faith to sign DJ to a proper 3 or 4 year veteran contract, or he tagged him and dealt with the contract after another year of data (if they weren't sure about DJ). In hindsight, the half-measure contract, with a 2 year out, was less than ideal.  The Giants are dealing with $22 million in dead cap. They had to deal with benching him due to the injury clause, and I heard reports DJ was not happy that the team signed him to what was effectively only a two-year deal.

This team needs to move with more conviction.  Be it Mara properly endorsing the men he decided to keep or the Schoen either tagging DJ or going all in; these half measures are making things more difficult

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2025, 11:06:01 AMIn benefit of hindsight, the best thing the team could have done was extend DJ's 5th-year option, giving the team two years to evaluate him rather than one.

It was suggested at the time the team would have been better served letting DJ hit the open market, and the team would match the best offer.  While that sounded like a good plan, from DJ's camp, that would have been seen as a slight, and this plan requires some goodwill by the player to come back and let the Giants match an offer.

To the point you made, half-measures seem to be the Giants' Achilles heel.  Either Schoen had enough faith to sign DJ to a proper 3 or 4 year veteran contract, or he tagged him and dealt with the contract after another year of data (if they weren't sure about DJ). In hindsight, the half-measure contract, with a 2 year out, was less than ideal.  The Giants are dealing with $22 million in dead cap. They had to deal with benching him due to the injury clause, and I heard reports DJ was not happy that the team signed him to what was effectively only a two-year deal.

This team needs to move with more conviction.  Be it Mara properly endorsing the men he decided to keep or the Schoen either tagging DJ or going all in; these half measures are making things more difficult

I don't think they could have convinced Mara to just let Jones walk after that 2022 season and Barkley also didn't want to be there anymore so with only 1 franchise tag they had to do something to keep the boss happy.  Yes, ideally he'd have gotten no contract at all but since they didn't much of a choice the 2 year deal was the best compromise they could have.  Thank GOD they didn't give him a real 4 year deal.

Quote from: Gmo11 on January 09, 2025, 11:44:02 AMI don't think they could have convinced Mara to just let Jones walk after that 2022 season and Barkley also didn't want to be there anymore so with only 1 franchise tag they had to do something to keep the boss happy.  Yes, ideally he'd have gotten no contract at all but since they didn't much of a choice the 2 year deal was the best compromise they could have.  Thank GOD they didn't give him a real 4 year deal.

If you objectively examine the available evidence, there isn't much to support the idea that Mara loved or was very fond of Daniel Jones.  Did Mara say good things about Jones?   Yes, but what owner isn't going to be publicly supportive of his starting QB?

The only player we know Mara was very fond of was Barkley because he said as much on Hard Knocks.   Despite that effect, Mara allowed Schoen to part ways with him (even knowing it would likely help a rival).

I will say this: I think the Giants winning a playoff game in 2022, combined with a decade of futility, made it a tough sell for all involved to let him walk without a viable replacement.

Part of my support of Daniel Jones was based on Daboll's reputation as a QB guru, and if he endorsed Jones enough for the team to ride with him, then Jones must have shown him enough that he believed he could be a franchise QB.   If Daboll didn't believe Jones was a franchise QB and all he could do was coach like hell to hide his limitation, who on earth thought it was a good idea to sign him even to the two-year contract? 

It's a bizarre situation that feeds on itself.

One could argue that Daboll is doing his best with the assembled talent.

One could also argue that Schoen gave Daboll enough talent that the record should be better.