Big Blue Huddle

Football outsiders DYAR metric:

Slayton 31 (15,16 on some metrics)
James 39
Robinson 32 in the under 50 catches

2 Wrs in the top 40 DYAR is hardly horrible Wrs. Above average/average Mayne but not as horrible as people think. If Robinson was still playing he'd rank 32nd so that would be 3 Wrs I'm the top 40. You also have to look at our attempts vs other teams, if we passed more obviously their numbers would be better but to act like they are the worst in the league is a stretch.

Plus Bellinger is 16th DYAR for TEs even after missing several games.

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The Recruit Netflix- Think the Rokkie show on Cable TV but for the CIA. Young recruit/legal attache breaking into the job of spying.

Jack Ryan season 3- watched every episode in one sitting.

CB strike, now just called Strike. Is a war veteran turned private investigator with his female partner that solve crimes. The lady that writes the Harry Potter books wrote the books these 4 seasons are based on and its phenomenal.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs.  I could be wrong but don't think it does.

The idea that it's the worst receiving corps in the league is an opinion.  We don't know exactly why the Giants aren't throwing it all over the field.  It could be Jones, the O-Line, Receivers or a combination of all three.

Whatever the case Jones has proven to be an extremely efficient game manager.  And as you pointed out it's helped the Giants get to being 8-5-1.

See that's part of the problem, before the season started daboll wanted Jones to "rip it" "Air it out and attack" and we've yet to see any of that from a throwing perspective. So we're in year 4 with Jones and still don't know if he can thrive in a traditional dropback offense. Just a month ago Gms and executives around the league were quoted saying that he shouldn't be retained because of his inability to win in throwing situations, even in the scaled back nontraditional offense Daboll and Kafka had to install. So if other executives think that, then it's just curious why daboll and Co went away from the rip it, attack, and went to a nontraditional offense. Because what we are left with is just more of the same instead of seeing that he can really attack, force the ball down field, sustain multiple drives through the air, and win putting up points that way.

Quote from: T200 on December 22, 2022, 02:39:59 PMI'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.

Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.

Im even ok with numbers if we're not acting like he's the end all be all or that he's done some miraculous feat warranting 30 million a year. His passing Imo is meh, it's not good enough, and if we are looking at Jones as a stop gap to us finding the answer I'm 150% on board with that. I'm just not ok with acting like he's the long term answer when he's clearly not if that makes sense.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2022, 02:16:42 PMYou have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.

I see that Ed, and completely get that, it's a valid point. His rushing has been really good this season, but as a passer in my opinion nothing has changed. He has not progressed as a thrower of the football this season and even regressed. He doesn't get as many opportunities to throw it and so his efficiency and turnovers are a positive but overall his passing as a whole is secerly lackluster.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 02:05:30 PMJones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.

Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th

Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th.  He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277

I am not sure what is so funny.

Because you're calling it a career year when he's averaging a 180 a game and 1 Td... Everything you just highlighted is because Jones is only throwing it on average 17-27 times a game. We are 27th in the league in pass attempts at 414. So you saying he isn't turning it over and has a high completion rate because we aren't throwing it like other teams. He is the Quarterback and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the league due in part to him. His average completion is 4.8 air yards. When you only throw the ball 4-6 yards down field on average every Qb would have great numbers.. one of the 2-3 worst passing offenses in the league but as long as 17 passes a game are efficient then it's a career year. He'll end up with the same numbers he's had every year, Daboll/Kafka juat made him more efficient because they don't want him throwing the ball unless we absolutely have to.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 09:44:19 AMI don't think this will be proven true in the end.  I think, in the end, Jones will prove to be the better QB.  While Jones is having career years in many areas, notice Murray's stats are now dropping.  I think those traits that Jones is, far in a way, superior are a lot more important than I think some appreciate. 

Rest assured, whoever signs Daniel Jones this offseason will not have to put a homework clause in his contract. 

A career year where lol? A career year for him has the Giants passing offense in the bottom 3rd. 27th in yards, 28th in Tds, 25th In yards per attempt. Those are not good, so I'm not sure how you justify a career year just because he doesn't turn it over.

Also Murray played a majority of the season with a bad line, no D hop, no Superstar running back and still has better numbers than Jones.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!

OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.

The Cardinals are signing our cast offs to play oline.. We have Barkley, they have D Hop, I think it averages out.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 07:02:03 PMMurray is a prime example of why you need to look beyond the stats.  The Cards are no doubt regretting the contract they gave to Murray

Stats from both Jones and Murray's first 50 games say Murray's the better QB and I'd agree with that. I still wouldn't have paid him, just like I wouldn't pay Jones.

Daniel Jones- 1,638 ATT 1,040 CMP    63.5 PCT 10,915 YDS 57 TD 33 Int    86.0 Rating 19-30-1 Record

Kyler Murray- 1,754 ATT 1,170 CMP    66.7PCT 12,471 YDS 75 TD 36 INT    93.0 Rating 24-25-1 Record

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 04:15:14 PM22-30 mill a year on avg yikes

look at kylar Murray's and Jones stats over 50 games, then look at Murray's 5 year 230 million, and his record and then Jones' plus what people are thinking Jones should make. Scary.

Also for some reason I thought we were in the Daniel Jones thread.....

Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 01:37:31 PMOnce again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.

Lol I wasn't considering the other Qbs rushing totals either.. If you have to add in a Qbs rushing to try to justify him as a Qb is that really the sign he's a good QB?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 01:32:39 PMJess,

I think you are asking the wrong question, in my opinion.  Your question assumes there is no improvement in the QB supporting case from year 1 to year 2.  I think we can expect a significant improvement and with that improvement, we will see increases in the raw numbers.   With the improvement and the increased raw stats, I don't see the two QBs you mention creating the same increase in stats next season.   Neither of the QBs you mentioned is as talented (in this season and next0 as Daniel Jones has demonstrated. 

So the QBs you mentioned could likely average 180 yards and 1 Td a game but I think we all want and expect more than that next season.

Also while a really poor supporting cast can stymie many QBs so there are similar, don't forget what happened last year when DJ was hurt and they had to play other QBs, the drop off was dramatic

That's the problem though Rich, you expect better from Jones next season when he's had virtually the same statical seasons every year as a pro. He's not going to magically transition into something be hasn't been the previous 4 in year 5.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 08:00:51 AMI don't know how you can make that claim like it's a fact (the part in bold).  I mean why not claim Darnold is right up there with Mahomes?   

In my opinion, comparing QBs is not as easy as people believe it to be.  Too much of their performance is impacted by their protection, receiving targets/playmakers, and coaching/scheme.

A perfect example is the Patriot's, Mac Jones.   

As a rookie, he put up a 92.5 QB rating and a 56.9 QBR

Then he gets Daniel Jones' old head coach (for the past 2 seasons)

His numbers drop to 82.6 QB rating and 30.7 QBR

Do you think Mac Jones forgot how to play QB?

So statically when they've started Brissett, Mayfield, and Tyrod haven't put up comparable numbers to Jones yes or no? They have so I'm not sure why you're questioning it. Mayfield put up a baseline stats before they got him help like OBJ etc, Tyrod played with a roster similar to the Giants in Buffalo and put up similar numbers. Brisset despite playing less games has 2,608 yards 12TD 6int and an 88.9 rating to Jones' 2,694 yards 12 tds 4 Int 90.5 rating. Jones has played 3 more games. So you're telling me honestly that with daboll/Kafka and the offense as currently constructed you don't think those 3 could average 180 yards and 1 Td a game?

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:35:59 PMNo it doesn't fall apart because Jones is better than Taylor.

And yes we can still retool - our cap is in amazing shape and we have the draft still.

I still haven't seen someone give a viable options to improve the QB. Journeyman QBs, washed up QBs, aren't appeasing. If you want to go through the draft? Great. But you'll have to give up a lot to get a guy to come in right away and play or else you're letting a kid and learn. Which isn't a bad idea if we sign Jones to a two year deal.

Regardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game. I don't think Jones is horrible but he's not the longterm answer, so why retain him and pay significant capital when at least 8-10 backups can come in and give you the same yardage and Tds. We know what Jones is at this point he's 2900 yards 12-15 passing Tds and a few Ints, we don't need to pay 25 or 30 a year for that when we can use tyrod, or one of those cheap veterans to replicate the production until we find our guy. Every team that has kept their average to above avg Qb has within a year or two drafted the person to replace him because it was a mistake. Tannehill, Goff, and Jinmy G all signed and shortly there after drafted their replacements because it wasn't a good longterm move. I'd argue those 3 Qbs are better than Jones.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:28:39 PMI'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB.  I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from.  Maybe a couple of IOLs.  A safety.  An RB.  Maybe a rotational pass rusher.  Maybe a mid-price WR.  Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB.  And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.

Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.

I would be a 100% down for that. I'd even be on board for a 1yr Jones contract, but that 2024 draft will have some amazing QB talent. I think we can reinforce the lines IOL, Dline, and Mike in this FA and Wr/Corner in the draft, then there will be a ton of FA #1Wrs in 2024 if needed then grab a Qb to go with.

Nice summary.