Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 16, 2023, 10:24:37 AMI think it'll be fair negotiating with Jones having had 1 good season out of 4 with the injury history and knowing that daboll/kafka pair is a huge part of it, I would think him and Barkley both take less to stay in help build the team up to compete long term.

I'm thinking this as well.  Those 2 are practically the face of this franchise.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2023, 07:54:59 AMTwo years ago Josh Allen signed a 6 year $258mm ($43mm/yr) contract with a $150mm guarantee. Since the numbers go up each year, if we are price-insensitive, that could easily be the number with Jones, maybe more. Would you be good with spending that type of money on him given he has only really played at this high of a level for several games and has only had one season out of four where he has not had a significant injury? Keep in mind, barring cap acrobatics that would wipe out most of our available cap space for next season and we do have plenty of other needs.

Personally, I think if we give him that type of contract, we're going to need to think long and hard about cutting Williams. Or possibly having a rethink about Barkley. I know nobody wants to think about these types of decisions, but something will have to give somewhere. To let either Thomas or Lawrence walk next year would be a travesty.

IF we retain DJ and Saquon which is most likely going to eat up 50M annually, looking forward to 2024, we have about 179.8 M in cap space.  We should have about 125M in cap space leftover taking into consideration what they are going to eat up in the cap which is not too bad really.

I would put a base salary for DJ of 30M with incentives in the contract that if meets annually, can hit up to around 40M which is now the avg. salary for the upper tier of QBs.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 07:24:00 PM@kingm56

If all you are looking for is a top-10 QB, it appears Daniel Jones is your man.   Considering DJ is in (along with all his teammates)  a first-year system.   PFF has the Giants ranked 18th in pass protection and 27th in receiving.  Yet despite these handicaps, DJ is currently.

QBR- 9

QB rating- 13

PFF- 14th (50% snaps)

On top of that, he has led his team to the playoffs. 

With all of that, I have a hard time not seeing how he won't be top 10 next season. (assuming the Giants add some talent)

You can also add

#6 in EPA
#1 in INT %

Considering the lack of "playmakers" he's had to work with.

Disclaimer
I put "playmakers" loosely here since Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air in this offense but did we really expect a practice squad player to come in here and be DJs safety blanket.

Hodgins is a crafty WR and knows how to create space.  However he is not that stud that is going to run sub 4.4 that will blow the top off any defense.

Quote from: T200 on January 03, 2023, 09:35:22 PMI picture a guy losing over 6 figures in a casino and on his way out the door, he takes his last 20 and puts in in a slot and hits for 10 grand. 

Perfect analogy

Quote from: Blue Fire on January 03, 2023, 07:02:43 PMJordan Raanan- DJ debate is over after Giants clinch playoffs

This Giants' new regime was always a fan of Jones. They liked his physical skills and makeup. But they still needed him to prove it on the field in order for them to want to commit to anything in the future. A team source said this summer they would have been open to an in-season extension or the franchise tag if he played well this year. The latter now realistically seems on the table.

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/64194/the-daniel-jones-debate-is-over-after-giants-clinch-playoffs

About 4 years after the 2019 draft, we all can argue that the Giants walked away with the best QB in that draft class.

Not for nothing, but I can see Gettleman with a smile on his face saying to the naysayers, I told you so.

Not sure if it's posted around here, a good breakdown of the Giants offense

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1meJvExzaVSN6lbKhUsWqF?si=AxmSR6S9Q1uvWLVL9QC08Q&t=2460

It's around the 41 minute mark

Quote from: Blue Fire on January 02, 2023, 01:57:34 PMWild if this reporter knows what he is talking about....

But Daboll also knew this: He needed to test Jones' mental toughness.

So, when training camp began, he devised a plan. As one source close to the coach explained, Daboll purposely structured practice for Jones to fail and Taylor to succeed.

"He wanted Daniel Jones to deal with the adversity," this source explained. "He wanted to see how he dealt with it on a daily basis. And he passed it with flying colors. So, I know he loves Daniel Jones.

"He loves Daniel Jones. He loves him."

Practices are always scripted. Daboll would tell defensive coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale which plays he'd be running when Jones was in the game, this source explains, and had Martindale call defensive plays that'd intentionally work. And when Taylor entered? Exact opposite. Plays were scripted on both sides to set him up for success.

Jones did not flinch. Daboll was thrilled.

https://www.golongtd.com/p/is-daniel-jones-the-future

Banks mentions it in their segment about what they were doing during training camp to test the mental make up of DJ.  It's around the 16 minute mark.

He's become more comfortable and looked more in command of the offense compared to week 1.  With a year under his belt and possibly an upgrade in talent in offseason to grow more rapport with the WRs staying - if the Giants do keep Jones, I can see them opening up more the passing game and with progression from the young guys in the oline, possibly take more shots down the field.

https://youtu.be/kX3li-BPakk

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 01, 2023, 07:34:37 PMThis isn't a time for told ya so people!

Don't get ahead of your skis or you will fall face first!

DJ had a great game against a bad team!

No one knows what JS wants, what DJ wants and there is a lot that goes in between.

So instead of gloating falsely and banging your chest, enjoy the win and let's keep looking forward TOGETHER

I agree.  I support DJ but I want to see how he does the next two weeks especially in the playoffs which most likely will be the 49ers.  The Niners will be a good litmus test of how deep we can make a run in the playoffs especially against that stout and stingy defense.

Does he have another gear that he can elevate his play and as well as put the team on his back when the game is on the line - just like Eli. 

What kind of progression can he make in the offseason year 2 under Dabes/Kafka's system with possibly better WRs.  We need to draft a stud WR and hopefully with Hodgins, a healthy Robinson, Bellinger to see how we expand the passing game next season.  Hopefully the line - particularly the pass blocking gets better.

*CORRECTION*
Just saw the standings - there may be a good chance we face the Vikings again.  I like our chances against them.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 05:43:14 AMThis might be the weakest defense for an interception that I've ever read.

I think your misinterpreting what I said.  I may be pro Jones but I'm not going turn a blind eye on his deficiencies which he still needs to work on.

That was purely a bad throw.  Well behind the WR.  Which Nick and Dan also points out in their piece.  DJ struggles with ball placement on those horizontal or in/out crossing routes.  On the out route to Saquon if DJ had better ball placement, Saquon could have turned the corner and picked up more yards.

The point I'm making is with faster/quicker WRs, purely on speed alone they can create bigger throwing windows and easier passes for the QB.  Something that DJ doesn't really have the luxury of given with the WRs we have.

The better illustrate the point.  If you watch how Mike McDaniel draws up plays for the Dolphins.  It creates so much stress on the defense when they are challenged to cover a bigger area for the field because of the speed of Hill and Waddle.  They feast on big plays primarily off of the speed of Hill and Waddle.  To compliment it also, because of the threat they pose for defenses it leaves other players unaccounted which creates options for Tua.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 09:04:24 PMThat doesn't make any sense as the ball was considerably behind him.  Having a faster WR won't improve the QB accuracy.  Consider the critical 4th dorm against the cowboys, Barkley had his man beat by a mile and DJ put the ball behind him and at his feat. 

The Hodgins pass was picked off because it was behind the WR.  But the coverage was also pretty tight with Peterson since Hodgins is not as fast as most WRs in the league.

The point I'm making is if it was a faster WR running that route.  The WR's speed should be enough to create separation for a better throwing window.  With better separation, hypothetically even if the ball was thrown behind it should be far enough that the defender cannot make a play on the ball unlike what happened on that pass attemp to Hodgins.

ADDENDUM

Dan explain here the kind of separation and space that Slayton's speed creates against the defense.  If not for his inconsistent hands, Slayton may be a viable #1
https://youtu.be/0ntUIdxHMq4

It's around the 38 minute mark.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 08:32:56 PMYou understand that INT was thrown behind Hodgins not in front of him making what you said make zero sense.

I was saying that it was bad throw by DJ and yes it was behind Hodgins.  He did not lead the WR with that ball.

The point I was making is if it was a more faster WR the coverage would not have been as tight as it was.  Imagine Slayton instead running that route vs an aging Peterson.  Slayton's speed alone would be enough to create separation and at the very least not allow the CB make a play on that ball.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 08:07:50 PMI agree with your Richie James evaluation. He can be dangerous but he can also be a liability.

I think Hodgins might be better than you're giving him credit for. I'm not 100% sure of that yet but I'm really liking what I'm seeing from him. I'm not suggesting we have another Larry Fitzgerald on our hands or anything, and I agree that he's not very fast, but he's big, he seems to be a good route runner, and his hands seem really good. I want to see more of him.

I agree with you.  Even Nick and Dan rave about him breaking down the tape vs. the Vikings.
https://youtu.be/0ntUIdxHMq4

He may not top end speed but as they alluded to, he manages to create space with his technique.  It may not necessarily be a lot but enough for DJ or any QB to work with.  Most importantly out of Slayton and James, our most sure handed WR on the field.

I like him as a complementary WR playing with a true #1.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 06:36:29 PMTo everyone saying we don't have talent at RB, WR, and TE, what are you all basing that on? It's not PFF grades, it's not stats, so what is it?

We have a 1250yd 10TD pro bowler at RB, many here claim Bellinger is a very good find in the draft (I agree) who has played well, at Tight End, Slayton is posting WR2 numbers, him and Hodgins are both outplaying many of the WRs people wanted them to trade for, their PFF grades are also higher than many of the receivers, they are graded amongst the top half of the league. Hodgins in recent weeks has been a TD magnet.

So again, if we have no talent or weapons, what is that being based on? Because it seems to me we have several along with an Elite LT

Richie James is a journey man WR because he is consistent.  He is shifty and has quickness but as we have seen, inconsistent hands.

Hodgins has been productive but having top end speed and being shifty he is not.  Which kind of needed to create separation as a WR.

Are they hard workers yes.  Won't dispute that but you also need talent on the field.  Look at Woolen from the Seahawks.  That size and speed combination is going go create problems for any WR going against him.

Using Hodgins on that INT thrown, could DJ have thrown a better ball?  Yes absolutely.  But if you have a WR that is faster, quicker that throwing window would not be as tight as it was throwing to Hodgins.  Faster and quicker players by talent alone is enough to win their match ups.  For our coaching we have more of scheming guys open than players winning in individual match ups.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:33:10 PMAnd my counter to your counter is that Jones has just as much talent to work with as Cousins did that year.  Sure Morris was a good RB but he was not near the all around threat Barkley is.  Opponents weren't game planning to stop Morris the way the Giants opponents game plan to stop Barkley and make the passing game beat them.

It is a fact for those of us who actually watch the games.

Yet you ignore the WR group and TE.  Plus the fact that Cousins had the luxury to learn the system for 3 years before becoming the full time starter.

That's stability and structure that Jones does not have the luxury of.  He is in year 1 of a completely new system and philosophy.  Like what Banks said in the video posted earlier.  The team just do not have the luxury having solid pass blocking to take multiple shots down the field.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PMAnd I get you blindly love Jones and are part of the it's everyone else's fault that the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football.  But hey I get it you'd rather the illusion that if you get things perfect for Jones he'd be a superstar.  You're entitled to your opinion.

The time to throw fact.

Like I said we're all entitled to our own opinion.  Your arguing that Cousins was productive in spite of that team not having a 1K receiver as if he made the players better around him.

My counter argument is that Redskins team had talent to work with for a QB to be productive who was already pretty familiar with the system in place having 3 years to learn it.  It also helped that his OC was McVay who came to be a super bowl winning coach.