Big Blue Huddle

I have a question for the pro-gun people on this thread.   If we play the game- if you were king

How would you stop all the mass shootings and reduce the number of single shootings?  What laws and rules would you change to make a country safer and save innocent lives?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 08:10:12 AMI have a question for the pro-gun people on this thread.   If we play the game- if you were king

How would you stop all the mass shootings and reduce the number of single shootings?  What laws and rules would you change to make a country safer and save innocent lives?

Hey Rich,

For starters here's a post one of my best friends put together a couple years ago. He's a licensed mental health professional, a counselor, and owns and operates multiple homes for mentally disabled people. Not saying I endorse it wholesale but definitely worth considering.

******

It is also not true that mass shootings are up - its a trick of statistics. If you dig into the incidents you will note that two officers drawing their guns on one subject and someone discharging a weapon is classified as a mass shooting.  What has become more sophisticated on all sides is tricking the data points and weaponizing them.   

Gun owners have been proposing changes for years and few from the other side listen because the options don't include banning guns.  So, here we go, once again a SIMPLE ten-point plan....

1. Background checks - instantaneous, on the web, anyone can access and free.(criminal proceedings for adults are public record anyway)

2. Make second OUI/DUI a felony.

3. Make all domestic violence assaults nationwide felonies.

4. Make bump stocks and other after-market modifications that allow a weapon to simulate automatic weapon fire subject to Tax Stamps purchases. 

5. Make habitual (5) operation of a motor vehicle after suspension of a license a felony.

And the less popular crime control measures (because most gun crime in this country is related to drug crime) 

6. Legalize marijuana

7. Actively work to reduce stigma for drug treatment, and expand methadone treatment centers (if you think the opioid crisis is a problem now, wait until what the next decade brings)

8. Deport criminally violent non-citizens. (both undocumented and on VISA - which is currently the law but not enforced due to all kinds of reasons that you see playing out on the nightly news).

9. Improve suicide training and reporting measures for all mandated reports

10.  Develop 'mental health' response officer training programs in all police departments nationwide.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 08:10:12 AMI have a question for the pro-gun people on this thread.   If we play the game- if you were king

How would you stop all the mass shootings and reduce the number of single shootings?  What laws and rules would you change to make a country safer and save innocent lives?

Rich

Sadly there is no law that will stop it!  NONE!

We already have a law that makes murder illegal, it's ignored!  So why would any law or rule in addition stop someone from doing it?

As I have stated, the issue isn't the gun.  Till we stop blaming the instrument and blame the individual and work to help/fix the individual we can't move forward.

Most recently when someone couldn't acquire a gun they have used a knife and a vehicle to kill multiple people in a mass attack.

Stricter laws will NEVER prevent evil from committing evil.  You know why, cause evil doesn't follow the rules/laws.   So now put a law on the books saying this is illegal and are they going to say darn can't use that it's illegal???  No they will ignore the rule.

If you limit magazine capacity or the type of gun to own that stops the avg man/woman from owning it but doesn't STOP a criminal from getting one and using it.

So there are no laws possible that will STOP IT! 

What can we do to LIMIT IT:

Background checks can minimize and limit who can legally purchase a firearm but there are enough illegal guns that if someone really wants a gun that bad, they will be able to get one.  Or they will find other methods.  A heavy truck down a mid town manhattan sidewalk will kill and injure more people then standing there with a gun.

I think not having gun safety in schools is incredibly foolish.  I think gun education would help tremendously.  Accidental shooting happen when people who don't understand and know about firearms find one and pick  one up.  So to answer your question on what can be done to prevent/reduce, train people on legit gun safety, educate the masses on what the firearms are and not what the media calls them.  Show them ramifications of using a firearm!  If we can teach sex education to kids to keep them safe from getting diseases or pregnant, to reduce the spread of AIDS that kills why not teach them about firearms?

Not to get political but had we taken the money sent to the Ukrainian the Government could have taken every elementary and high school in this country, made a single point of access and hired at least 1 armed security guard for EVERY SCHOOL!  If we can "find" the money for foreign counties how can we not finally find the money to protect our kids? 

I think gun free zones are foolish, you are telling criminals no one in this area can have a gun come on over and shoot you are all good till the police show up.  So limit the number of soft targets! 

If you notice when a mass attack happens it's in areas where the attacker feels they themselves won't initially be confronted and killed.  So again make less soft targets!  Stop posting no guns allowed and use even reverse psychology and say conceal carry permitted! 

If people think people are armed they may be less inclined to attack!  Also with that allow those who can pass a background check and qualify with their firearm to carry!  This country won't turn into the Wild West!  Most people that go through the process legally and do carry, pay for insurance, are less likely to draw their weapon unless it's necessary cause they understand the ramifications of drawing that weapon is a last resort.

I know for someone who is against or not comfortable with and around guns can't comprehend that more guns could be the answer, but it can.  Many of these attackers don't want to die, they are mentally ill and lashing out hence when the police arrive at times they surrender.  So if they don't know who in the school, mall, playground, has a firearm cause it's concealed, they are less likely to attack.


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@Slugsy-Narrows if "nothing" can be done to reduce gun violence, how do you explain why the US has so much more gun violence compared to other wealthy nations (I have already posted the graph)?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 09:16:18 AM@Slugsy-Narrows if "nothing" can be done to reduce gun violence, how do you explain why the US has so much more gun violence compared to other wealthy nations (I have already posted the graph)?

Because we are a free nation that has guns and is our right as citizens to have them.

Due to that fact is why Japan never attacked the west coast!  It's also the reason why German rolled through Europe almost unopposed as there was no civilian help to add a minimal military and arming the Ukrainian civilians is why Russia is struggling to defeat them.

When the population can't own guns at all, when their government has gone door to door and confiscated guns there are less guns obviously.  Less guns of course would mean less gun deaths, but again can't get a gun, drive down a parade or busy street! 

You again are still focusing on the item and not the individual.

Because their are less guns in some counties look at their other means of attacks and killings.  More knife attacks and other means to kill are still happening. 

There are more than 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the United States.

Overall, there are roughly 77.49 million legal adult gun owners in the United States.

If guns were the problem the death rate would be much higher!  The issue isn't the instrument it's the individual.

Guns flow over the boarder illegally due to the border not being secure.  Getting in the hands of criminals.

Gang violence in this country in major cities produce the majority of gun deaths in this country to begin with.  Why aren't cities cracking down on gangs and prosecuting more!!??

So I asked in my post back to you!

With murder already illegal and that ignored!  What law would be put in place to limit further the killing of innocents?

Seeing when people can't get a gun they find other means, take the item used out of the equation......

What is the consistent factor still present?


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Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 01, 2022, 09:27:29 AMDue to that fact is why Japan never attacked the west coast! 


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If you're referring to the "every blade of grass" quote attributed to Yamamoto, that has actually been debunked. He didn't say it.

Quote from: TONKA56 on December 01, 2022, 09:34:16 AMIf you're referring to the "every blade of grass" quote attributed to Yamamoto, that has actually been debunked. He didn't say it.

Not just that quote and I heard that as well, but I have read a variety of different beliefs/theories that civilians having firearms were and or did make a land invasion questionable.  Even if it was a minimal deterrent I'm still good with it!


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Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 01, 2022, 09:50:04 AMNot just that quote and I heard that as well, but I have read a variety of different beliefs/theories that civilians having firearms were and or did make a land invasion questionable.  Even if it was a minimal deterrent I'm still good with it!


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As @TONKA56 the entire claim that civilian gun ownership prevented Japan from invading the West Coast is false (I will add, as a student of military history, there was just no way Japan could have successfully invaded Hawaii, much less the mainland, the simply lacked the resources).  Yet, to have people see these false claims in "a variety of different" forms is truly troubling.  Paul is a voter, and he presses politicians on gun policies.  Yet, those positions and beliefs are formed, in part, on incorrect information.

I have some faith (or maybe it's just wishful thinking) that if all the facts are accurately known, America's great democracy will reach good positions more often than not (the wisdom of the crowd and all that).   Yet, it seems more and more people don't have all the facts, or worse, they have "facts" that are simply wrong.  Worse, I don't think that wrong information is accidental or inadvertent.

If I had one wish for this nation moving forward, it was that all Americans would treat information like a court treats evidence.  What are your expert witness's credentials?   Do you click into claims to verify the accuracy and quality of claims?   Do you consider the quality of studies?  Do you read about the flaws and limitations of studies?   Do you note if the study is published or not?

On a side note, I think it should be incumbent on social media companies (since they are a major source of the spread of misinformation) to put in filters that eliminate or at least place warning on misinformation.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AMAs @TONKA56 the entire claim that civilian gun ownership prevented Japan from invading the West Coast is false (I will add, as a student of military history, there was just no way Japan could have successfully invaded Hawaii, much less the mainland, the simply lacked the resources).  Yet, to have people see these false claims in "a variety of different" forms is truly troubling.  Paul is a voter, and he presses politicians on gun policies.  Yet, those positions and beliefs are formed, in part, on incorrect information.

I have some faith (or maybe it's just wishful thinking) that if all the facts are accurately known, America's great democracy will reach good positions more often than not (the wisdom of the crowd and all that).   Yet, it seems more and more people don't have all the facts, or worse, they have "facts" that are simply wrong.  Worse, I don't think that wrong information is accidental or inadvertent.

If I had one wish for this nation moving forward, it was that all Americans would treat information like a court treats evidence.  What are your expert witness's credentials?   Do you click into claims to verify the accuracy and quality of claims?   Do you consider the quality of studies?  Do you read about the flaws and limitations of studies?   Do you note if the study is published or not?

On a side note, I think it should be incumbent on social media companies (since they are a major source of the spread of misinformation) to put in filters that eliminate or at least place warning on misinformation.

So you focus on the smallest point I make rather then the overall question you had that I answered twice.

This is why nothing gets done!

Rather then discuss openly, honestly it's fall back to argue the smaller points that are extremely insignificant to the overall conversation to continue to push your own agenda.

So I will ask a final time.

With murder already being illegal and the highest crime punishable by law.  What laws will stop people from killing?  By any means?  Again banning an item doesn't stop it!  For every life you say you can save by not being shot their are other instances where guns save lives or evil uses something else to kill.

So again is the issue the gun or the person commuting the act?


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Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on November 29, 2022, 06:38:19 PMKill

Thank you for your service!!!


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Thanks slugs

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AMOn a side note, I think it should be incumbent on social media companies (since they are a major source of the spread of misinformation) to put in filters that eliminate or at least place warning on misinformation.

If social media is reliant to tell us the truth and be the keepers of misinformation we are doomed!  Social media has become just another corrupt tool. 

The misinformation police tagged a post I made on my hunting profile as the information within this post has been fact checked and deemed not entirely accurate based on CBC findings.

It has to do with SHOT PLACEMENT of an arrow! 

Yea things are really being read and fact checked and to whose standard!?

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Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 09:16:18 AM@Slugsy-Narrows if "nothing" can be done to reduce gun violence, how do you explain why the US has so much more gun violence compared to other wealthy nations (I have already posted the graph)?

In fairness he didn't say "nothing" could be done. He said "no law" can prevent it. I might agree with this, but 100% do not believe that nothing can be done. 

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 01, 2022, 10:14:58 AMSo you focus on the smallest point I make rather then the overall question you had that I answered twice.

This is why nothing gets done!

Rather then discuss openly, honestly it's fall back to argue the smaller points that are extremely insignificant to the overall conversation to continue to push your own agenda.

So I will ask a final time.

With murder already being illegal and the highest crime punishable by law.  What laws will stop people from killing?  By any means?  Again banning an item doesn't stop it!  For every life you say you can save by not being shot their are other instances where guns save lives or evil uses something else to kill.

So again is the issue the gun or the person commuting the act?


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Paul,

Misinformation isn't "the smallest point" in my opinion.  It's a huge problem.

You asked why don't cities crack down on gang violence.  I will answer that question.  First, cities are hamstrung because of the illegal guns coming through the iron pipeline. Second, stopping gangs is not as easy as you seem to think, because there is freedom of assembly so it's not illegal to just be in a gang.

To your point about guns just being an instrument of murder, guns make murder magnitudes easier.  Not only do guns make it easier to kill, but it makes it quicker to kill.  How many seconds does it take to draw a weapon, point, and pull the trigger?  Compare that to other means of killing.  Guns also have the ability to kill beyond the intended victim, which makes them somewhat unique. 

I mean, you walk into a crowded office building (or school) with a military-grade weapon with high capacity magazine and spare clips and killing dozens (before you are stopped) is rather easy.  Go into that same building with just a knife you would be lucky to kill 2 or 3.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2022, 10:26:33 AMPaul,

Misinformation isn't "the smallest point" in my opinion.  It's a huge problem.

You asked why don't cities crack down on gang violence.  I will answer that question.  First, cities are hamstrung because of the illegal guns coming through the iron pipeline. Second, stopping gangs is not as easy as you seem to think, because there is freedom of assembly so it's not illegal to just be in a gang.

To your point about guns just being an instrument of murder, guns make murder magnitudes easier.  Not only do guns make it easier to kill, but it makes it quicker to kill.  How many seconds does it take to draw a weapon, point, and pull the trigger?  Compare that to other means of killing.  Guns also have the ability to kill beyond the intended victim, which makes them somewhat unique. 

I mean, you walk into a crowded office building (or school) with a military-grade weapon with high capacity magazine and spare clips and killing dozens (before you are stopped) is rather easy.  Go into that same building with just a knife you would be lucky to kill 2 or 3.

Drive down a busy Manhattan sidewalk kill more then you can shoot! 

Mix fertilizer and blow up a building kill more then you can with a gun.

I'm ok still haven't addressed the issue!

It's not the equipment used!  It's the person using it.

The focus is on the wrong thing!  We need to limit those who shouldn't have access to.  Not limit the item in general.

In that case card should be limited cause 12-20k people a year die in drunk driving accidents.

Did we limit the cars or limit how alcohol could be consumed and what is considered drunk driving and penalize the driver?


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Quote from: TONKA56 on December 01, 2022, 10:23:51 AMIn fairness he didn't say "nothing" could be done. He said "no law" can prevent it. I might agree with this, but 100% do not believe that nothing can be done.

Exactly Tonka and I gave examples of what can be done to reduce it but that was ignored!

Nice post on your end there was a lot of solid options there as well.


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