Big Blue Huddle

Lawerence Tynes believes the only reason DJ isn't back next year, it's because another team signs him away.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 02:49:50 PMLawerence Tynes believes the only reason DJ isn't back next year, it's because another team signs him away.

If another team signs him away, then they never intended him to be the Franchise QB or don't believe in him to be that. I agree they will try to sign him unless the price gets too high. Then they go with TT and whoever else is out there. I really believe these next few games are the pivotal point for DJ's career as a NYG.

The last few days those loyal to John Mara in the media and former players like Tynes have been putting out these pieces.  It's almost like they want to force public pressure to force Schoen to commit to Jones.  Hopefully Schoen and the new regime doesn't give in and makes their own decision.

Exactly what I was about to type, Ed. You don't let franchise QBs hit the open market...

It's amazing how content with average we are. The guy has had the same average stats going on 7 years, and instead of trying to find a Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, or Burrow we just doom ourselves to continued mediocrity. No matter who Jones has had on offense he puts up virtually the same stats, did the same thing in college. Genuinely blows my mind after 4 years of this we're wanting to sign up for more. To say Jones doesn't have targets, Slayton, Hodgins, Robinson, Barkley, Bollinger wasn't an absolutely horrible lineup and we have done nothing... absolutely nothing, could it be better absolutely but only a 160-179 yards a game? It's not that bad Taylor replicated a third of Jones' passing in 5 minutes that Jones had the whole game but yeah.. everyone else is the problem.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 15, 2022, 03:51:36 PMThe last few days those loyal to John Mara in the media and former players like Tynes have been putting out these pieces.  It's almost like they want to force public pressure to force Schoen to commit to Jones.  Hopefully Schoen and the new regime doesn't give in and makes their own decision.

You can watch the video and come away with a few different conclusions

A)  Maybe Tynes is right, and Jones is better than I thought

B) Maybe Tynes is wrong, and Jones is who I thought he  was

C)  Tynes is involved in a Mara-led conspiracy to get former players and others to say how good Jones is to pressure his employee to keep him




For those not going down that rabbit hole, you should check out the video.  The thing that really struck me was Tynes is apparently living in an area with around 8 former players.  He says they all like Jones and are a lot higher on him than the general public.  Tynes did qualify that he didn't need their validation, as Tynes feels pretty comfortable in what he has seen from Jones.  One thing that Tynes really liked was how Jones handles the NYC media, which has taken down many a player and QB.   Tynes also pointed out that things like yardage is more of a team stat.

As I have said many times, I am still on the fence with Jones.  I have heard many good strong arguments for and against Jones (as well as some pretty poor ones).   I am hoping that maybe these last 4 games will shed more light for me.   I think a good game from Jones this Sunday night (assuming the protection holds up) would help be feel more optimistic about Jones' future.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 15, 2022, 04:13:40 PMIt's amazing how content with average we are. The guy has had the same average stats going on 7 years, and instead of trying to find a Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, or Burrow we just doom ourselves to continued mediocrity. No matter who Jones has had on offense he puts up virtually the same stats, did the same thing in college. Genuinely blows my mind after 4 years of this we're wanting to sign up for more. To say Jones doesn't have targets, Slayton, Hodgins, Robinson, Barkley, Bollinger wasn't an absolutely horrible lineup and we have done nothing... absolutely nothing, could it be better absolutely but only a 160-179 yards a game? It's not that bad Taylor replicated a third of Jones' passing in 5 minutes that Jones had the whole game but yeah.. everyone else is the problem.

Jess,

Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread.  QBR was your choice.   Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9.   I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.

Jones QBR, Yards, TD

Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1

Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system.  His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league.  Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have.   Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).

There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,

Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread.  QBR was your choice.   Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9.   I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.

Jones QBR, Yards, TD

Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1

Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system.  His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league.  Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have.   Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).

There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.

6 of 13 games he was over 60%! That's 46%.

That's 7.82 games of a 17 game schedule. Sounds about right.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,

Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread.  QBR was your choice.   Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9.   I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.

Jones QBR, Yards, TD

Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1

Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system.  His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league.  Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have.   Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).

There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.

You're notion only makes sense if you chose to look at QBR in a vacuum.   When you couple his QBR with other objectionable data, you can see how Jess' point has merit. In the four games you identified, DJ had a TOTAL of 639 passing yards (159 yards/gm).  To compare his QBR to Mahomes is odd, as the latter obtained his lofty QBR, while simultaneously leading the entire NFL in passing yards, TDs and QB rating.  Conversely, DJ is averaging just 194 Yards and .9 TDs per game.  It's not too difficult to obtain a higher QBR when running for yards and throwing 5 yard passes.  However, playing that conservative leads to limited production. In short, nobody outside of a few posters on this board would compare DJ to Mahomes...there is none.   Finally, a few weeks ago you expressed the importance of using trends to evaluate a QB.  You made this statement between weeks 4 and 7.  If you still believe that notion, than you must believe DJ is trending downwards as 4 of DJs last 6 QBRs have been mediocre.  However, in this thread, you seem to have forgotten the importance of trends, as it applies to QBRs?

Wk   4    71 Yards 0 TDs
Wk   7    202 Yards 1 TDs
Wk 10   197 Yards 2 TD
Wk 14   169 Yard 1 TD

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,

Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread.  QBR was your choice.   Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9.   I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.

Jones QBR, Yards, TD

Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1

Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system.  His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league.  Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have.   Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).

There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.

I posted his weekly QBR and yards because it was supposed to be a Jones thread just like Ed posted the Qbr from ESPN? What does that have to do with saying statically in college he has had the same stats every season and as a pro he's virtually had the same stats every season...

Your wanting me to give him a cookie for playing well in 4 out of 13 games?

I genuinely would love to know Why you get so upset when anyone says anything that isn't pro Jones? For you to claim be so neutral you haven't posted one thread, one Twitter post, one article, or one picture of anything stating the other case? For as many threads as you start, not one talking about the other side and why he shouldn't be retained. Instead you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 15, 2022, 09:17:10 PMI genuinely would love to know Why you get so upset when anyone says anything that isn't pro Jones? For you to claim be so neutral you haven't posted one thread, one Twitter post, one article, or one picture of anything stating the other case? For as many threads as you start, not one talking about the other side and why he shouldn't be retained. Instead you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses.

In fairness to Rich, the threads he starts are primarily sharing what he finds. Yes, it seems to be one-sided in support of Jones but I hardly see any anti-Jones posts or articles on the web.

Now, his responses are a different story.

@T200 and @Jclayton92

So you guys have convinced yourself that I must be lying about being neutral (I would say on the fence or undecided).  You know, I often use the term process when it comes to evaluating Jones.  I advocate good processes and a strong attempt to be open-minded to new information and avoid bias.    Now you two might want to consider the process that led you to the conclusion that I am secretly in the Jones camp and just lying about my true position as some sinister ruse.  I mean, in the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, my last post was literally 50/50

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2022, 04:05:56 PMJones 5

Barkley 3

It seems to me it doesn't get more even than that.   If you wonder why I tend to disagree with the negative Jones camp primarily, it's for two reasons:

1)  I get regular PMs from members complaining about the overwhelmingly negative tone that BBH has towards Jones.  Those complaints have some validity because I can tell you that BBH is more negative toward Jones than what I see and hear elsewhere.  So there is an effort by me to bring balance to our forum.

2)  I do like to see a good process in evaluation.  I more often see those flaws in the negative camp than I do in the positive camp.  Besides, with so much Jones negativity on BBH, it's not like any positive Jones comment isn't going to be met with multiple disagreements.

Further, I tend not to like to use the term neutral when it comes to Jones.   I think the quickest way to the Giants becoming contenders is if Jones is the answer.  I think finding a replacement franchise QB is not as easy as many people seem to believe it is.  So while I may be 50/50 on if Jones is a franchise QB, I am hoping he proves that he is.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2022, 01:40:46 PMThat's my point, Ed. They're not committed to Jones; if they were, the answer would be different.  I'm a big fan of paying attention to actions over words.  Concerning the former, clearly the Giants have a strategy mapped-out that doesn't include Jones as their long-term/franchise QB.  If they did, they would have exercised his 5th year option, or given a vote of confidence by approaching his agent on a new deal.  They did neither, which reveals their plan.  I think we might be in violent agreement in that we both believe the Giants relative draft position may force them to offer DJ a 2/3 year deal in the 20/25 million dollar deal, or use the rarely used transition tag. Where we differ is I don't believe the next few games will alter the Giants current plan.

Actions do speak louder then words

Not trading SB at the trade deadline to me says they are at least interested in trying to keep SB.

Not extending DJ's 5th, not extending him at the trade deadline and while we were 7- and committing to him said to me they still weren't sold.  Limiting his play the 2nd 1/2 or this season seems more and more obvious.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 16, 2022, 08:41:13 AMActions do speak louder then words

Not trading SB at the trade deadline to me says they are at least interested in trying to keep SB.

Not extending DJ's 5th, not extending him at the trade deadline and while we were 7- and committing to him said to me they still weren't sold.  Limiting his play the 2nd 1/2 or this season seems more and more obvious.

On Barkley, I think at that point he was the Giants Offense. To trade him would indeed be giving up on the season and they couldn't do that to the people who pay good money for their tickets and the team morale would have fallen apart and hurt Daboll. They had to bite the bullet and lose out on that draft capital.

Now could they tag him and trade him? I don't think they would sign him to trade him. It's not an ethical move from their perspective. I think they tag him and keep him. I would let him go.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 08:56:46 AMOn Barkley, I think at that point he was the Giants Offense. To trade him would indeed be giving up on the season and they couldn't do that to the people who pay good money for their tickets and the team morale would have fallen apart and hurt Daboll. They had to bite the bullet and lose out on that draft capital.

Now could they tag him and trade him? I don't think they would sign him to trade him. It's not an ethical move from their perspective. I think they tag him and keep him. I would let him go.

Tag and trade is possible

Sign and trade I think we would take a big cap hit if I understand it right.

We could tag and keep 1 more season and trade during the season if we are underperforming.

I still think SB has a greater chance of staying then DJ.