Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2022, 08:27:08 AM@T200 and @Jclayton92

So you guys have convinced yourself that I must be lying about being neutral (I would say on the fence or undecided).  You know, I often use the term process when it comes to evaluating Jones.  I advocate good processes and a strong attempt to be open-minded to new information and avoid bias.    Now you two might want to consider the process that led you to the conclusion that I am secretly in the Jones camp and just lying about my true position as some sinister ruse.  I mean, in the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, my last post was literally 50/50

It seems to me it doesn't get more even than that.   If you wonder why I tend to disagree with the negative Jones camp primarily, it's for two reasons:

1)  I get regular PMs from members complaining about the overwhelmingly negative tone that BBH has towards Jones.  Those complaints have some validity because I can tell you that BBH is more negative toward Jones than what I see and hear elsewhere.  So there is an effort by me to bring balance to our forum.

2)  I do like to see a good process in evaluation.  I more often see those flaws in the negative camp than I do in the positive camp.  Besides, with so much Jones negativity on BBH, it's not like any positive Jones comment isn't going to be met with multiple disagreements.

Further, I tend not to like to use the term neutral when it comes to Jones.   I think the quickest way to the Giants becoming contenders is if Jones is the answer.  I think finding a replacement franchise QB is not as easy as many people seem to believe it is.  So while I may be 50/50 on if Jones is a franchise QB, I am hoping he proves that he is.

Rich,

Those are two HUGE assumptions on your part. First, I haven't convinced myself of anything, and second, I didn't say nor imply that you are lying.

What I said was your non-thread-starting posts are generally, mostly, primarily supportive of Jones and you have routinely deferred making any judgments on him, well into his 4th season, because of his lack of NFL-caliber support. When other posters cite his less-than-average performances, you respond with the reasons why any of his particular performances were subpar.

As far as your prediction about the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, that's not the same as what you think of him. That '5' is in reference to what you think SCHOEN will do, not how you feel about him. Two different things.

Last, you often speak about intellectual honesty and logical fallacies. The items I bolded from your statement are dishonest and intellectually flawed.

Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 09:18:07 AMRich,

Those are two HUGE assumptions on your part. First, I haven't convinced myself of anything, and second, I didn't say nor imply that you are lying.

What I said was your non-thread-starting posts are generally, mostly, primarily supportive of Jones and you have routinely deferred making any judgments on him, well into his 4th season, because of his lack of NFL-caliber support. When other posters cite his less-than-average performances, you respond with the reasons why any of his particular performances were subpar.

As far as your prediction about the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, that's not the same as what you think of him. That '5' is in reference to what you think SCHOEN will do, not how you feel about him. Two different things.

Last, you often speak about intellectual honesty and logical fallacies. The items I bolded from your statement are dishonest and intellectually flawed.

If Rich didn't take the other side as often as he does, there would be much less discussion over Daniel Jones and that is the number one posting topic which gets the most hits. Every time he posts it compels several people on here to dig their heels in. It's quite brilliant.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 09:35:38 AMIf Rich didn't take the other side as often as he does, there would be much less discussion over Daniel Jones and that is the number one posting topic which gets the most hits. Every time he posts it compels several people on here to dig their heels in. It's quite brilliant.

It's a perpetual tennis match that no one will ever win. The only thing that changes is the ball.

Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 09:56:13 AMIt's a perpetual tennis match that no one will ever win. The only thing that changes is the ball.

I think you're missing the point there Tim.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 09:58:05 AMI think you're missing the point there Tim.

Deliberately. 

It truly is remarkable how often the negative Jones crowd will make the topic about the flaws or sinister motives, or secret plans (like getting more activity) of those that don't share their negative views about Jones, rather than about Daniel Jones himself.  No doubt it's this Ad hominem nature that drives so many complaints to my inbox.

@T200, you argue that my 50/50 is what I think Schoen would do.  That is correct, but when there was a discussion about people "losing it" over the ultimate disposition on Daniel Jones, I made it clear that as fans we don't know as much as the coaches and the GM do.  I have zero reasons to think that one way or the other, Schoen will make the wrong decision on what to do with Jones.  So when I say 50/50 it also reflects my belief as to ultimately what Jones is.

It's ironic that you guys all get upset (and, in my opinion, rightfully so) if you are referred to as Jones "haters."   Yet you saw nothing wrong with @jgrangers2 saying:

" Instead, you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses."


No doubt people who don't share your negative views will think twice about posting something positive about Daniel Jones after seeing the wild accusations and false claims leveled against the owner for just being neutral (I shudder to think what would happen if I was pro-Jones).   So is an echo chamber of Jones negativity really what you guys want?   Have you guys ever wondered to yourselves why the post about being fair in evaluating Daniel Jones got nine likes (the highest like count I have seen on a post)?

No doubt you guys will disagree with me.  Yet, nothing you say can explain away the fact that you guys made this discussion about ME rather than about Daniel Jones (which is exactly what ad hominem is).   The ironic part is that while you guys try to get everyone to share your negative views of Daniel Jones, I actually find it harder to remain unbiased (I have to remind myself not to let this influence my views) as I don't like being pushed toward a particular position.

I'd love to respond to your last post, Rich, but this is way off topic.

Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 10:02:02 AMDeliberately. 

Would make a great Hedge Fund Manager.

Most people everyone calls Jones haters genuinely think he's a middle of the road average Qb, and just think the team should go in a different direction. That's it, and you can make it more but in reality they think he's 15-20 and want more for the team. Not hating, just loving the Giants and having a different perspective.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 16, 2022, 04:19:16 PMMost people everyone calls Jones haters genuinely think he's a middle of the road average Qb, and just think the team should go in a different direction. That's it, and you can make it more but in reality they think he's 15-20 and want more for the team. Not hating, just loving the Giants and having a different perspective.

The biggest issue in these discussions is this.  Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 16, 2022, 04:24:11 PMThe biggest issue in these discussions is this.  Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.

I can't help but think of the golden rule when I see posts like this.  It's more than fair to want to be treated with respect and have your opinions considered valid rather than just the rantings of Jones haters.    Yet while that is how you want to be treated, in turn, you crap all over those that don't agree with you and paint people who support Jones as irrational people that see anything less than 100% Jones as hating him.  I wish this do as I say, not as I do, was a one-off, but sadly 3 people endorsed that post.

I am done with this nonsense.  How about we stick with the topic of this thread?

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 16, 2022, 04:24:11 PMThe biggest issue in these discussions is this.  Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.

Funny, I see it as the opposite.  Any post with anything remotely positive immediately draws strongly negative rebuttals, usually in the form of criticisms that have been made repeatedly.

Perspective is an interesting thing.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 17, 2022, 07:18:56 AMI can't help but think of the golden rule when I see posts like this.  It's more than fair to want to be treated with respect and have your opinions considered valid rather than just the rantings of Jones haters.    Yet while that is how you want to be treated, in turn, you crap all over those that don't agree with you and paint people who support Jones as irrational people that see anything less than 100% Jones as hating him.  I wish this do as I say, not as I do, was a one-off, but sadly 3 people endorsed that post.

I am done with this nonsense.  How about we stick with the topic of this thread?

Rambo has never crapped all over you and brings a ton of discussion to your board, but sure go after him Rich. I was initially just trying to tell you the you were alienating half of the board not being actually neutral and liking all of BFs, and Todges posts and ranting about Jones haters at the deadline and even a week ago. If you don't want to change, I don't care, I was just trying to tell you as the owner that more ppl might actually speak their mind if you were actually Switzerland.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 17, 2022, 08:45:13 AMFunny, I see it as the opposite.  Any post with anything remotely positive immediately draws strongly negative rebuttals, usually in the form of criticisms that have been made repeatedly.

Perspective is an interesting thing.

I can provide links to SEVERAL post over this season where those of us who believe DJ is #12 to #20 QB had good, or great games; in contrast, I've never seem a post from the "pro Jones" group criticizing him.  Thus, the notion of naturality is humorous and not taken seriously.

I also find it odd you believe posting objectionable data to support ones position is negative.  If you review the Jones threads, there are few "JONES SUCKS" posts. Instead, there are 'I disagree, his the objectionable data that supports my position type posts.'  The latter should be viewed as a positive on a board that claims to consist of the most 'informed fans.' You have to risk offending, and being offended, in order to gain true knowledge...

I also find it houmous that it's considered positive to attack our OL and WRs, as long as you're defending Jones.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2022, 10:33:16 AMRambo has never crapped all over you and brings a ton of discussion to your board, but sure go after him Rich. I was initially just trying to tell you the you were alienating half of the board not being actually neutral and liking all of BFs, and Todges posts and ranting about Jones haters at the deadline and even a week ago. If you don't want to change, I don't care, I was just trying to tell you as the owner that more ppl might actually speak their mind if you were actually Switzerland.

Jess,

I think I understand where the issue is.  You see, I am truly neutral (in the sense I have not made up my mind).  So I take in all comments, good and bad, in terms of Daniel Jones.  The thing is, I am very critical when I examine new data.  I treat claims and data like a court treats expert witnesses and testimony.  I vet what I hear thoroughly.  If, in the course of vetting the new data, I come across flaws, I will mention them. 

I mean, I consider your claim that you know more about what I think and feel, than I do.  Let me ask you, how do you think I rate that in terms of being a fair, level-headed, and reasonable person?  I mean, put yourself in my shoes, how would you feel if someone accused you of lying about what you think (and you know that what you said is true)?  Do you think that makes me more inclined to listen to your case?

Consider what I saw with Rambo.  There is information provided by Carl Banks a former Giants player, who likes his reputation of telling it like it is, and talks with the coaching staff.  You have Lawerence Tynes another former Giant who also talks with the coaches.  Now instead of listening to what either of them has to say and weighing the merits of what they say, he dismisses them with a conspiracy theory that they both pumping up Daniel Jones at the behest of John Mara who wants to keep Daniel Jones and what Banks and Tynes says will put pressure on Joe Schoen to keep Jones.  Can you see that there might be a flaw in that line of thinking?

If you honestly and sincerely care about alienating members, you just might want to consider how often I get PMs complaining about the overwhelming Jones negativity and how the critics dominate this forum.  I mean, you point to me, but it's not like the members critical of Daniel Jones don't know they have two admins that agree with them.  I will also say those complaints have validity to them.  I do not see the level of Jones negativity I see at BBH on other Giants forums, in social media, or among writers/pundits.  For example, when the game was out of hand and they pulled Jones, only BBH ran with the narrative that NYG should consider benching Jones in favor of Tyrod Taylor.  That was a unique position that I only saw here at BBH.

Look, Jess, I have literally said it's wrong to label people critical of Jones as haters.  How about you don't endorse the opposite that those not as critical of Jones must be Jones lovers or people who see things through "Jones-tinted glasses" (that was you who made that accusation, wasn't it?)

How about trying to be more respectful to the people on both sides of this polarizing issue while also being trying open-minded and trying to hold opinions to the standard of critical thinking?