Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on December 20, 2022, 03:24:26 PMTwo questions:

1) What do you consider to be a reasonable offer for Jones?
2) Would you be upset if Schoen makes that offer to Jones but Jones goes to another team for more money?

For me, $20 million per year for 3 years is reasonable.
No, I would not be upset if he takes more money from another team.

If you could have Jones at 3yr 60 million or one of Mayfield, White, Brissett, Jimmy G, Heiniecke, or Rush for 7 million a year until we find our guy which one are you taking? All those guys played good football this year at points when they played and are expected to make a 1/4th of what Jones is supposed to make. Is Jones worth an additional 13-15 million over those guys? They are all free agents this offseason, I left geno off because he'll likely make more.

Jimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No

Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.

Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons

Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer

Rush sucks.

Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.

None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 20, 2022, 03:28:36 PMWell, we know the narrative Jones critics like yourself are pushing.  You claim that the criticism of the WR corps is unfair.  I assume that claim is motivated by the idea that if you convince people, the WRs are good, then you can blame Jones for the lack of offensive production.

Yet, you guys often also fault DJ for "not elevating the players around him."  When I suggest that perhaps the receiver production of the revolving motley cast of PS players, low-round draft picks, and street-free agents is proof of player elevation, all I get is a "could be" and a long lecture about how I am contradicting myself.

Again I'm just not sure what exactly you're asking me to give him credit for. A couple of our receivers (James is the subject of this thread so I'll key on him in this post) had a couple of plays that they looked decent on. No Giant receiver even had 50 yards in this game, and overall our passing offense put up 160 yards on 32 attempts (5.0 YPA) and no touchdowns. It is unclear to me why you're put off by the fact that I'm not rushing to give Jones credit for either his or the receivers' performance in this game. By any rational measure our passing offense was poor, and we won this game for other reasons.

I have never bought into the narrative that our receivers are horrible. I certainly don't think they are good either. I think they're below average and we clearly lack a number one receiver, but we have NFL caliber players in this receiver room who are capable of making plays. So when a Richie James has a scrappy 42 yards and perhaps a nice play or two on specials, that's decent for him, but I'm not sure why I am expected to jump to heap credit on Jones for that.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 04:52:37 PMJimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No

Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.

Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons

Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer

Rush sucks.

Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.

None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.

If it came down to either those guys or giving Jones a contract that paid him $25-$30+ million AAV would you do it?  Obviously a hypothetical

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 03:32:27 PMI'd be more in the camp of two years for $30-$35mm (total). That would make him the 15th highest paid QB in 2022 in terms of AAV. That seems more than reasonable to me. What evidence is there that he is significantly better than average?

More than two years seems too long to me as I'm not convinced Jones is a guy you build around for the long haul. He is a capable game manager with plus athletic ability but not a franchise QB in my opinion. If the contract were more than two years I would want a clear out after the second year.

If it's going to cost over 30mm then they should franchise tag him. There isn't a QB in this draft that they can reach who would be able to play year one. I think they do that and build a better team around him and see how he progresses.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 04:54:21 PMAgain I'm just not sure what exactly you're asking me to give him credit for. A couple of our receivers (James is the subject of this thread so I'll key on him in this post) had a couple of plays that they looked decent on. No Giant receiver even had 50 yards in this game, and overall our passing offense put up 160 yards on 32 attempts (5.0 YPA) and no touchdowns. It is unclear to me why you're put off by the fact that I'm not rushing to give Jones credit for either his or the receivers' performance in this game. By any rational measure our passing offense was poor, and we won this game for other reasons.

I have never bought into the narrative that our receivers are horrible. I certainly don't think they are good either. I think they're below average and we clearly lack a number one receiver, but we have NFL caliber players in this receiver room who are capable of making plays. So when a Richie James has a scrappy 42 yards and perhaps a nice play or two on specials, that's decent for him, but I'm not sure why I am expected to jump to heap credit on Jones for that.

I think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:14:16 PMI think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.

I stand by my comments. I don't think 160 passing yards for a 5.0 YPA and no touchdowns is a good performance by an NFL passing offense in a game. If you disagree, then we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:14:16 PMI think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.

It was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.

That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 04:52:37 PMJimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No

Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.

Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons

Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer

Rush sucks.

Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.

None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.

Brisset has Identical stats as Jones despite playing in 3 less games and will be 15 million a year cheaper... How's that not option..

Baker Mayfield who you called the epitome of average has significantly better numbers his first 4 years than Jones and its not even close... sooo does that make Jones below average?

Cooper rushes stats were almost identical to Jones in that span so by your definition Jones would suck?

Heinicke is basically on par with Jones since Heinicke started..

So again your argument is flawed as all those Qbs have put up numbers better or comparable than Jones and can be had for significantly less, if Jones is just a two year rental anyway why wouldn't we pay less for the same production and build out the roster?

I'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB.  I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from.  Maybe a couple of IOLs.  A safety.  An RB.  Maybe a rotational pass rusher.  Maybe a mid-price WR.  Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB.  And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.

Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 05:20:26 PMBrisset has Identical stats as Jones despite playing in 3 less games and will be 15 million a year cheaper... How's that not option..

Baker Mayfield who you called the epitome of average has significantly better numbers his first 4 years than Jones and its not even close... sooo does that make Jones below average?

Cooper rushes stats were almost identical to Jones in that span so by your definition Jones would suck?

Heinicke is basically on par with Jones since Heinicke started..

So again your argument is flawed as all those Qbs have put up numbers better or comparable than Jones and can be had for significantly less, if Jones is just a two year rental anyway why wouldn't we pay less for the same production and build out the roster?

You always completely ignore surrounding casts. So posting stats has very little meaning. Not one of them plays with an equal or worst cast than Jones.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 05:19:14 PMIt was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.

That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?

Wait a sec... so Jones basically drives down the entire field. Makes a huge 4th down throw. And since Barkley takes it from the 2 yard line - he doesn't deserve much credit?

That's really really harsh. I am sorry.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 20, 2022, 04:55:35 PMIf it came down to either those guys or giving Jones a contract that paid him $25-$30+ million AAV would you do it?  Obviously a hypothetical

Yes I'd take Jones at somewhere around 25 million over those guys but nothing more than 2 years.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:38:19 PMYes I'd take Jones at somewhere around 25 million over those guys but nothing more than 2 years.

Agree to disagree.  Appreciate the response.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:37:12 PMWait a sec... so Jones basically drives down the entire field. Makes a huge 4th down throw. And since Barkley takes it from the 2 yard line - he doesn't deserve much credit?

That's really really harsh. I am sorry.

Harsh? That is your opinion, if you think differently, you are certainly entitled to that. To each their own.