Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:28:45 PMIf the surrounding cast is so important as you clearly think it is why would we then pay Jones. In that scenario we would let Tyrod or one of those cheaper qbs play and build up the surrounding cast?? See how the argument falls apart? Because If we pay Jones 25-30 million a year we can't afford to go out and retool the entire wr core..

No it doesn't fall apart because Jones is better than Taylor.

And yes we can still retool - our cap is in amazing shape and we have the draft still.

I still haven't seen someone give a viable options to improve the QB. Journeyman QBs, washed up QBs, aren't appeasing. If you want to go through the draft? Great. But you'll have to give up a lot to get a guy to come in right away and play or else you're letting a kid and learn. Which isn't a bad idea if we sign Jones to a two year deal.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:28:39 PMI'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB.  I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from.  Maybe a couple of IOLs.  A safety.  An RB.  Maybe a rotational pass rusher.  Maybe a mid-price WR.  Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB.  And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.

Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.

I would be a 100% down for that. I'd even be on board for a 1yr Jones contract, but that 2024 draft will have some amazing QB talent. I think we can reinforce the lines IOL, Dline, and Mike in this FA and Wr/Corner in the draft, then there will be a ton of FA #1Wrs in 2024 if needed then grab a Qb to go with.

Nice summary.

I am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.

And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:35:59 PMNo it doesn't fall apart because Jones is better than Taylor.

And yes we can still retool - our cap is in amazing shape and we have the draft still.

I still haven't seen someone give a viable options to improve the QB. Journeyman QBs, washed up QBs, aren't appeasing. If you want to go through the draft? Great. But you'll have to give up a lot to get a guy to come in right away and play or else you're letting a kid and learn. Which isn't a bad idea if we sign Jones to a two year deal.

Regardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game. I don't think Jones is horrible but he's not the longterm answer, so why retain him and pay significant capital when at least 8-10 backups can come in and give you the same yardage and Tds. We know what Jones is at this point he's 2900 yards 12-15 passing Tds and a few Ints, we don't need to pay 25 or 30 a year for that when we can use tyrod, or one of those cheap veterans to replicate the production until we find our guy. Every team that has kept their average to above avg Qb has within a year or two drafted the person to replace him because it was a mistake. Tannehill, Goff, and Jinmy G all signed and shortly there after drafted their replacements because it wasn't a good longterm move. I'd argue those 3 Qbs are better than Jones.

3800 yards 20 TD's and 5 interceptions with the Offense the Giants are running isn't bad. 66% completion % and he hasn't lost any games for this team. You have to count his rushing totals to the passing numbers.

Right now DJ has a 99% chance of coming back next year. It would take a monumental breakdown to change that.

Furthermore they love him and he loves them. It would take crazy money for him to leave this situation and have to start over yet again. He will take less to stay here in my opinion.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:51:15 PMRegardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game.

You're stating this as it's a fact. It's not. We could actually be much worse with them. Again, you're ignoring supporting casts and not even bringing Jones rushing into the fold.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 08:03:09 PMI meant $30-$35mm over two years total, not per year.

With the increase in the salary cap - we are looking at a $30M per year QB salary. Perhaps DJ will take less money so the Giants can fit others into the Cap. Let's hope Abrams can weave his magic.


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Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:42:26 PMI am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.

And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.

Well put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.


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Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 10:03:06 PMWell put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.


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So, the Giants should stick with a mid-tier QB because of fear they might draft the wrong guy?  Great, we'll hold on to our guy while those teams with a top tier QB (e.g. KC, Phili, Cinci, and Buff) play championship football every year.  It's a good thing you weren't KCs GM when they decided to move on from Alex Smith and draft Mahomes. Under your strategy, that would have never happened; same with Phili and Balt,  In fact, I can't think of a team in the last decade that kept thier mid-tier QB who won a SB, or played consistent football.  Staying with a known commodity out of fear is not an effective strategy and will ultimately get you fired...

Quote from: kingm56 on December 20, 2022, 10:19:20 PMSo, the Giants should stick with a mid-tier QB because of fear they might draft the wrong guy?  Great, we'll hold on to our guy while those teams with a top tier QB (e.g. KC, Phili, Cinci, and Buff) play championship football every year.  It's a good thing you weren't KCs GM when they decided to move on from Alex Smith and draft Mahomes. Under your strategy, that would have never happened; same with Phili and Balt,  In fact, I can't think of a team in the last decade that kept thier mid-tier QB who won a SB, or played consistent football.  Staying with a known commodity out of fear is not an effective strategy and will ultimately get you fired...

KC built their team up and added Mahoney as the final piece. In fact, smith was a playoff QB. We can do the same thing as they did. Sign Jones for two years and see if there's a QB worth taking. And don't forget Mahomes sat an entire year. The KC model you referenced is actually a method worth following and keeping Jones would be a part of it.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 10:52:38 PMKC built their team up and added Mahoney as the final piece. In fact, smith was a playoff QB. We can do the same thing as they did. Sign Jones for two years and see if there's a QB worth taking. And don't forget Mahomes sat an entire year. The KC model you referenced is actually a method worth following and keeping Jones would be a part of it.

Alex Smith was a pro bowl, above-average QB, that TWO teams replaced while he in his prime.  Each team made the SB the year following Smith.  That's the point, in the modern era, you're unlikely to win SBs with a mid-tier guy.  If it were up to Todge, they would have stuck with Alex Smith.  To be clear, I understand circumstances (e.g. terrible 2022 QB draft class and relative 2023 draft standing) may dictate franchising, transition tagging, or offering a 2/3 year deal; however, that's not what many are advocating for...they want a multi-year, franchise-type deal.  I'm opposed to that strategy.

BTW, Mahomes wasn't the final piece, he IS the piece...he's what makes it go.  KC has literally flipped 90% of the roster between Mahomes first year and this year.  The WR corps is 100% different, with only Kelce remaining.  If you get the right QB, you're going to win, independent of the majority of the surrounding cast.  Like the Pats with Brady, KC will be competitive every year Mahomes is under center, with or without a big name WR and/or stud LT.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 20, 2022, 11:02:54 PMAlex Smith was a pro bowl, above-average QB, that TWO teams replaced while he in his prime.  Each team made the SB the year following Smith.  That's the point, in the modern era, you're unlikely to win SBs with a mid-tier guy.  If it were up to Todge, they would have stuck with Alex Smith.  To be clear, I understand circumstances (e.g. terrible 2022 QB draft class and relative 2023 draft standing) may dictate franchising, transition tagging, or offering a 2/3 year deal; however, that's not what many are advocating for...they want a multi-year, franchise-type deal.  I'm opposed to that strategy.

BTW, Mahomes wasn't the final piece, he IS the piece...he's what makes it go.  KC has literally flipped 90% of the roster between Mahomes first year and this year.  The WR corps is 100% different, with only Kelce remaining.  If you get the right QB, you're going to win, independent of the majority of the surrounding cast.  Like the Pats with Brady, KC will be competitive every year Mahomes is under center, with or without a big name WR and/or stud LT.

If there's a Patrick Mahomes that Schoen and Dabol think is in this draft - then of course you let Jones walk and go through hell and high water to get Mahomes.

But if they don't think there is - continue to build the team. That's why if Jones is signed to a short deal (no more than 2 years) - you can still get better and still get the QB in the near future.

Now let's say they think Richardson or Levis is THAT guy - then go get them. I am ruling out Young and Stroud cause I don't think they are in reach.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 07:44:49 PMHow do you know they aren't lateral moves?  No one is trying to change your opinions on DJ yet you continue to try to pick a fight. You can think he is the future, I can think he isn't, and the world will go round all the same.

He wasn't trying to pick a fight.  You made some claims and he asked you what did you observe to draw those conclusions.   

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 20, 2022, 09:05:56 PM3800 yards 20 TD's and 5 interceptions with the Offense the Giants are running isn't bad. 66% completion % and he hasn't lost any games for this team. You have to count his rushing totals to the passing numbers.

Right now DJ has a 99% chance of coming back next year. It would take a monumental breakdown to change that.

Furthermore they love him and he loves them. It would take crazy money for him to leave this situation and have to start over yet again. He will take less to stay here in my opinion.

Ed,

I think there are a lot of quality points in this post.   I will say though, that if a team with a better support system in terms of O-line and receivers offers DJ a good contract, he might be a fool to pass it up.   The Giants still have a lot of work to do, talent-wise and there is nothing to say that receiver and interior O-line will be the priority or if they have enough cap space and draft capital to address all those needs.

Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:42:26 PMI am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.

And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.

Seems to me the best use of cap space is to retain talent rather than try and bring in big-ticket free agents.