Big Blue Huddle

I have a bit of a different take on the crypto than most here.  I think some form of cryptocurrency will be widely accepted all over the world at some point, but I think we are a number of years from that.  Even now you can purchase a wide variety of things using some forms of cryptocurrency.  I don't think there will be more than a couple of crypto currencies worth much when this does happen. 

There is a lot of issues with it being unregulated as well as the number of various crypto assets that are being created and sold.  IT's very much a buyer beware area.

FTX was really a Bernie Madoff type of scam which really has nothing to do with what crypto is or isn't.

I do own some Ethereum but have not bought any in several years.   

On the other, I think blockchain technology is really helping in a lot of industries and will continue to grow.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2022, 10:43:44 AMFTX was really a Bernie Madoff type of scam which really has nothing to do with what crypto is or isn't.

I beg your pardon, but I respectfully disagree; If the markets and the brokers would've been regulated to the right extent, this wouldn't have happened. Initially, everyone was happy because of the lack of Regulations, the independence from the normal financial system... but now this happened and most if not all are now screaming for Regulations of the Crypromarket.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2022, 10:43:44 AMOn the other, I think blockchain technology is really helping in a lot of industries and will continue to grow.

This I agree with. The blockchain technology can be used for many things outside of Crypto for sure.

Quote from: GordonGekko80 on December 16, 2022, 12:38:20 PMI beg your pardon, but I respectfully disagree; If the markets and the brokers would've been regulated to the right extent, this wouldn't have happened. Initially, everyone was happy because of the lack of Regulations, the independence from the normal financial system... but now this happened and most if not all are now screaming for Regulations of the Crypromarket.

You are free to disagree and it may have been harder to do but Bernie Madoff did what he did with regulation and people reporting suspicions.  Further, things like Enron, Lucent, MCI/Worlcom have all happened in the 2nd half of my life while under regulations that are supposed to prevent it.

To say scams won't happen because of regulations is false. 

I think crypto markets should be regulated but I don't think regulations are some 100% insurance against scams

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2022, 01:00:11 PMYou are free to disagree and it may have been harder to do but Bernie Madoff did what he did with regulation and people reporting suspicions.  Further, things like Enron, Lucent, MCI/Worlcom have all happened in the 2nd half of my life while under regulations that are supposed to prevent it.

To say scams won't happen because of regulations is false. 

I think crypto markets should be regulated but I don't think regulations are some 100% insurance against scams

This I agree with though. 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 16, 2022, 01:00:11 PMYou are free to disagree and it may have been harder to do but Bernie Madoff did what he did with regulation and people reporting suspicions.  Further, things like Enron, Lucent, MCI/Worlcom have all happened in the 2nd half of my life while under regulations that are supposed to prevent it.

To say scams won't happen because of regulations is false. 

I think crypto markets should be regulated but I don't think regulations are some 100% insurance against scams

Financial regulation, at least to me, is akin to the regulations governing the airline industry.  Each time there is a scam or some event that costs people all or most of their money, there are regulations put in place to either prevent such an event from happening again or at least help people avoid such events.  This has been going on for nearly 100 years. 

Along comes Crypto with zero regulations.  FTX was essentially a bank for crypto-currency.  This would never have happened with traditional currency because banks are heavily regulated to protect banking customers.   That doesn't mean a new scam won't happen, but the chances of being scammed in the world of crypto are magnitudes greater than with traditional finance, in my opinion.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2022, 01:10:16 PMFinancial regulation, at least to me, is akin to the regulations governing the airline industry.  Each time there is a scam or some event that costs people all or most of their money, there are regulations put in place to either prevent such an event from happening again or at least help people avoid such events.  This has been going on for nearly 100 years. 

Along comes Crypto with zero regulations.  FTX was essentially a bank for crypto-currency.  This would never have happened with traditional currency because banks are heavily regulated to protect banking customers.   That doesn't mean a new scam won't happen, but the chances of being scammed in the world of crypto are magnitudes greater than with traditional finance, in my opinion.

Wells Fargo did some very similar things to their customers.   They are still in business and for some reason people still use them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/20/wells-fargo-agrees-to-3point7-billion-settlement-with-cfpb-over-consumer-abuses.html

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 22, 2022, 09:51:45 AMWells Fargo did done very similar things to their customers.   They are still in business and for some reason people still use them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/20/wells-fargo-agrees-to-3point7-billion-settlement-with-cfpb-over-consumer-abuses.html

Matt,

Wells Fargo engaged in some shady fee charges (from how I remember their issues).  I am not sure that's the same as FTX who told people they were a crypto bank, give us your crypto for safekeeping like in a bank, only to spend the money they got.   I think that's why Wells Fargo was fined and FTX had at least one arrest (that I am aware of).

In some ways, I would argue that the Well Fargo case shows that the safeguards that are put in place worked.  Despite some questionable practices by Wells Fargo, the regulators protected the customer's interests.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 09:58:33 AMMatt,

Wells Fargo engaged in some shady fee charges (from how I remember their issues).  I am not sure that's the same as FTX who told people they were a crypto bank, give us your crypto for safekeeping like in a bank, only to spend the money they got.   I think that's why Wells Fargo was fined and FTX had at least one arrest (that I am aware of).

In some ways, I would argue that the Well Fargo case shows that the safeguards that are put in place worked.  Despite some questionable practices by Wells Fargo, the regulators protected the customer's interests.

It was much more than just fees.  They took money out of customer accounts and started new accounts to show they had increased the number of accounts.  There was also some mortgage situation that I forgot the details. 

Really it shows the safeguards were circumvented for a period of time until someone reported it.

One very fundamental and basic but (I think at least) important set of questions that needs to be considered regarding crypto is the following:


What practical purpose does cryptocurrency serve? Why does the world need it?


I think this is important because all legitimately great discoveries and inventions, and ones that have soared in value over multiple generations, have served a genuine purpose that has helped mankind in some way. They have been something that people either need or very badly want. I am trying to understand how crypto fits into that axiom.


Obviously, to be able to make payments digitally is not a reason why we need crypto. We do that all the time now with regular fiat currency, and there are all kinds of technologically advanced ways to do it. So that's a non-reason.

Clearly, cryptocurrency is of great use to any individual or group of individuals looking to engage in illicit, nefarious transactional activity. No doubt it helps serve that purpose, but that is obviously not an acceptable, legitimate purpose or need.

What most crypto people will give you as their response to this question is that crypto currency is finite, unlike fiat currency, which governments can print as much as they want of. I get that, but that's more a property of it than an actual use or something that people "need" or even "want."

I still have yet to hear anyone make a coherent argument of why the legitimate, law-abiding world needs crypto currency. If anyone here wants to take a stab at it, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 10:09:40 AMOne very fundamental and basic but (I think at least) important set of questions that needs to be considered regarding crypto is the following:


What practical purpose does cryptocurrency serve? Why does the world need it?


I think this is important because all legitimately great discoveries and inventions, and ones that have soared in value over multiple generations, have served a genuine purpose that has helped mankind in some way. They have been something that people either need or very badly want. I am trying to understand how crypto fits into that axiom.


Obviously, to be able to make payments digitally is not a reason why we need crypto. We do that all the time now with regular fiat currency, and there are all kinds of technologically advanced ways to do it. So that's a non-reason.

Clearly, cryptocurrency is of great use to any individual or group of individuals looking to engage in illicit, nefarious transactional activity. No doubt it helps serve that purpose, but that is obviously not an acceptable, legitimate purpose or need.

What most crypto people will give you as their response to this question is that crypto currency is finite, unlike fiat currency, which governments can print as much as they want of. I get that, but that's more a property of it than an actual use or something that people "need" or even "want."

I still have yet to hear anyone make a coherent argument of why the legitimate, law-abiding world needs crypto currency. If anyone here wants to take a stab at it, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Superb post! Very well (and eloquently) stated 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 10:09:40 AMOne very fundamental and basic but (I think at least) important set of questions that needs to be considered regarding crypto is the following:


What practical purpose does cryptocurrency serve? Why does the world need it?


I think this is important because all legitimately great discoveries and inventions, and ones that have soared in value over multiple generations, have served a genuine purpose that has helped mankind in some way. They have been something that people either need or very badly want. I am trying to understand how crypto fits into that axiom.


Obviously, to be able to make payments digitally is not a reason why we need crypto. We do that all the time now with regular fiat currency, and there are all kinds of technologically advanced ways to do it. So that's a non-reason.

Clearly, cryptocurrency is of great use to any individual or group of individuals looking to engage in illicit, nefarious transactional activity. No doubt it helps serve that purpose, but that is obviously not an acceptable, legitimate purpose or need.

What most crypto people will give you as their response to this question is that crypto currency is finite, unlike fiat currency, which governments can print as much as they want of. I get that, but that's more a property of it than an actual use or something that people "need" or even "want."

I still have yet to hear anyone make a coherent argument of why the legitimate, law-abiding world needs crypto currency. If anyone here wants to take a stab at it, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

That Crypto currency is finite is true if you look at a given type of crypto currency.  On the other hand, taken as a whole there is no limit on the number of crypto currencies that can enter that market

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 10:36:04 AMThat Crypto currency is finite is true if you look at a given type of crypto currency.  On the other hand, taken as a whole there is no limit on the number of crypto currencies that can enter that market

True, and that is a good point that I think often gets overlooked.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 10:09:40 AMOne very fundamental and basic but (I think at least) important set of questions that needs to be considered regarding crypto is the following:


What practical purpose does cryptocurrency serve? Why does the world need it?


I think this is important because all legitimately great discoveries and inventions, and ones that have soared in value over multiple generations, have served a genuine purpose that has helped mankind in some way. They have been something that people either need or very badly want. I am trying to understand how crypto fits into that axiom.


Obviously, to be able to make payments digitally is not a reason why we need crypto. We do that all the time now with regular fiat currency, and there are all kinds of technologically advanced ways to do it. So that's a non-reason.

Clearly, cryptocurrency is of great use to any individual or group of individuals looking to engage in illicit, nefarious transactional activity. No doubt it helps serve that purpose, but that is obviously not an acceptable, legitimate purpose or need.

What most crypto people will give you as their response to this question is that crypto currency is finite, unlike fiat currency, which governments can print as much as they want of. I get that, but that's more a property of it than an actual use or something that people "need" or even "want."

I still have yet to hear anyone make a coherent argument of why the legitimate, law-abiding world needs crypto currency. If anyone here wants to take a stab at it, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

That argument about illicit uses is the biggest crock of sh!t there is.  Every transaction is recorded on a blockchain and therefore completely traceable.  You know what the best payment for illicit activity is and always has been?  Cash.  Going to get rid of that?

If the addresses were regulated it would easily eliminate that issue.

People want a currency that is not dependent on central banks making decisions about interest rates or government heads like John Mugabe just printing the money into worthlessness.  I get that not everyone wants it, but a universal currency is not a bad idea.

Personally, I love the idea of a currency that is not attached to any country or government.  We have seen mulitple countries (albeit smaller ones) have currency crashes in the last few years.  Bet a lot of those people wish they were not dependent on a government to maintain their worth. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 10:36:04 AMThat Crypto currency is finite is true if you look at a given type of crypto currency.  On the other hand, taken as a whole there is no limit on the number of crypto currencies that can enter that market

There are dozens if not more traded cryptos. If there is to be one used more widely, many of those will disappear. 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 22, 2022, 11:02:13 AMEvery transaction is recorded on a blockchain and therefore completely traceable. 

Right, because obviously sophisticated criminals and terrorists always use their exact, true identities when engaging in these unregulated transactions and never falsify anything or seek to cover their tracks in any way. My bad.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 22, 2022, 11:02:13 AMYou know what the best payment for illicit activity is and always has been?  Cash.  Going to get rid of that?

No, but cash isn't as easy to use as a payment method for large transactions. For starters, it requires a physical transfer, and very large amounts take up space. Large cash withdrawals from banks also set off flags. I'm not saying large cash transactions don't happen or can't happen, but pressing a button and having it all happen in cyberspace is a hell of a lot easier. Especially if the transaction is between two parties who are far away from each other (think international terrorist funding).


I get all the points about the appeal of a currency that is finite and not tied to a government or central bank, and that is fine, but I firmly disagree with your statement that the argument that cryptocurrency is useful to criminals is "the biggest crock of sh1t there is." I do however agree that regulation would help with this issue.