Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Rambo89 on January 10, 2023, 07:47:26 PMMajor improvement needed in the passing game.  Can't be in the mid 20's next season.

Yup, Get the WR 1 and that will likely change...

Quote from: Blue Fire on January 10, 2023, 09:09:50 PMYup, Get the WR 1 and that will likely change...

To be fair I heard the same thing a year ago if the Giants replaced Jason Garrett as offensive coordinator and upgraded the offensive line.  Both of those things were done and all it led to was going from 31st to 24th in passing yards and that was with Jones making 5 more starts than he did a year ago along with a healthy Barkley to open things up off playaction.

Quote from: Rambo89 on January 11, 2023, 05:54:43 AMTo be fair I heard the same thing a year ago if the Giants replaced Jason Garrett as offensive coordinator and upgraded the offensive line.  Both of those things were done and all it led to was going from 31st to 24th in passing yards and that was with Jones making 5 more starts than he did a year ago along with a healthy Barkley to open things up off playaction.

If you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 10:15:40 AMIf you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.

Elite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.

If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 11, 2023, 11:36:47 AMElite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.

If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy

He's definitely short term 2-3 year hopefully with it all up front so we can continue building out the team for a couple of years and have it ready for whoever. I just doubt a majority of this roster is here for it minus Lawrence, Thomas, thibs, Neal, Bellinger, and Mckinney.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 11, 2023, 11:36:47 AMElite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.

If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy

He took 2 guys who we had barely heard of and they turned into legitimate depth receivers who were forced into starting roles and performed well, both with career bests in catches and yards.  And revived a moribund guy's career from 5th or lower on the initial depth chart to a point where we have to be concerned about him going FA.

Did they elevate DJ or did he elevate them?  Personally I find the answer to this to be easier than the chicken/egg conundrum.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 10:15:40 AMIf you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.

Fair point which is why at least for me if the Giants are going to bring back both Jones and Barkley on big cap hits I would look to the draft to address the playmaking WR need.  I don't believe long term they can afford to pay Barkley big money and also bring in a big money WR.  Just look to Dallas for that one where they ended up having to trade Cooper.

Quote from: Rambo89 on January 11, 2023, 01:57:56 PMFair point which is why at least for me if the Giants are going to bring back both Jones and Barkley on big cap hits I would look to the draft to address the playmaking WR need.  I don't believe long term they can afford to pay Barkley big money and also bring in a big money WR.  Just look to Dallas for that one where they ended up having to trade Cooper.

Teams only have so much cap money.  If the Giants decide to re-sign both Jones and Barkley, I think it's fair to say that they will be done with higher-priced free agents.  A number one WR would then have to be drafted rather than signed as a FA or traded for (with the possible exception being a lower-priced WR that can be had for a day 3 pick).

As you and others pointed out a veteran QB sucks up cap space, so teams need to offset that by having some of the other expensive positions, like WR 1, under cheap rookie contracts.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 03:14:11 PMTeams only have so much cap money.  If the Giants decide to re-sign both Jones and Barkley, I think it's fair to say that they will be done with higher-priced free agents.  A number one WR would then have to be drafted rather than signed as a FA or traded for (with the possible exception being a lower-priced WR that can be had for a day 3 pick).

As you and others pointed out a veteran QB sucks up cap space, so teams need to offset that by having some of the other expensive positions, like WR 1, under cheap rookie contracts.

I understand this point and it is very true you cant have monstrous contracts at too many positions on a team but have we fully broken down what this means exactly in NFL cap terms?


-An elite RB is closer to a 10M dollar AAV not a 20M

-All our lineman are sub 10 million dollar contracts (though AT will change that in a year or so)

-Our TEs are not making much at all collectively

-All our WR after we jettison Golladay will be making a pretty low amount collectively even if we resign some combination of Hodgins/ James/ Slayton/ Shepard because none of those guys will command some kind of mega deal deal based on this year or their career performances to date.

If you resign DJ and Barkley , their first year cap hit will likely be around 30-35M combined. 2023 cap space sits around 60M which is 3rd in the entire NFL. It can grow to roughly 72+ with cutting KG post June 1 and then 85+ with a retructure or extension if we so desire. 2024 cap space explodes to 179M (which will decrease a bit with DJ/Barks 2nd year cap hit but it will still be likely pretty well north of 100M) .

After DJ/Barkley potentially resign, only one player will be an 8 digit cap hit on offense (Thomas as 10.2M).


For more perspective, here are a few other teams in 2023 (pretty eye opening numbers):

-Cowboys have 5 offensive players including an WR, RB and QB with a 14M cap hit or more headlined by Dak at 49M for a total of roughly a whopping 119M in cap space.

-Tampa Bay has 6 players including 2WRs , the QB and the RB making 8 million or more headlined by Bradys 35M for a total of around 133M in cap space

-Chiefs have 4 offensive players with an 11M cap hit or more headlined by their QB at 47M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space

-Minnesota our upcoming playoff opponent has 4 offensive players including  a QB at 36M , a WR , a RB and an OL all making 14M or more tying up roughly 90M in cap space.

-Raiders have 5 offensive players (3 in the receiving game) with a 12.5M cap hit or more headlined by Carr at 35M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space

-Bills have 75M tied up in cap amongst 3 players on offense.

In summation: When you look at the NFL landscape combined with what we have currently in future contracts including the likely resigning of Barkley and Jones even if we traded for a big time WR to add to this mix it would not be drastically different in the cap calculus relative to other teams (and a number of playoff ones at that).

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 06:53:19 PMI understand this point and it is very true you cant have monstrous contracts at too many positions on a team . I would counter with this if I may:

-An elite RB is a 10M dollar contract not a 20M
-All our lineman are sub 10 million dollar contracts (though AT will change that in a year or so)
-Our TEs are not making much at all
-All our WR/TEs after we jettison Golladay will be making very little even if we resign some combination of Hodgins/ James/ Slayton/ Cager because none of those guys will command some kind of mega deal deal based on this year or their career performances to date.

If you resign DJ , Barkely their first year cap hit will be around 30M combined. Next years cap space is 179M (which will decrease a bit with DJ/Barks 2nd year cap hit but it will still be likely pretty well north of 100M still) .

After DJ/Barkley, not one player will be an 8 digit cap hit on offense. I think they would be able to add (if they so desired) a big money WR to that mix without jeopardizing the apple cart too much.

Your cap space number is for 2024.  The 2023 space is about third of that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 07:10:24 PMYour cap space number is for 2024.  The 2023 space is about third of that.

 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 07:10:24 PMYour cap space number is for 2024.  The 2023 space is about third of that.

Thanks I edited the syntax to clarify.

The point was that you can structure contracts with higher cap hits in year 2 (2024) vs year 1 (2023) because 2024 is an obscenely high 179M cap space vs the still quite high 60-85M (3rd in NFL of 2023 with the high end of 85M after restructures/cuts/extensions if need be)

Mighty Ive always found you to be a man of reason who looked for the answers without letting bias cloud your judgment most of the time. I would ask you to take some time and take a closer look at the overthecap numbers I pointed out for other NFL teams along with our own cap space next year and beyond .  I think you will quickly realize we can most certainly add a big contract or two in addition to Barkley and Jones without it upsetting the apple cart (should we so desire). In fact it would be very much in line with the NFL landscape of many current playoff teams.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 11, 2023, 07:16:02 PM

Are you the peanut gallery?

BF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.

I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees

Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 08:53:18 PMBF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.

I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees

I'd much rather talk about upgrading our punter at this point than Wr in every thread.