Big Blue Huddle

https://twitter.com/snygiants/status/1615902379592880128

Quote from: Rambo89 on January 19, 2023, 06:58:32 AMWith how Jones, Lawrence and Thomas are playing I'm not sure they'll be able to keep Barkley let alone sign Higgins.  Wouldn't shock me if Lawrence got close to Aaron Donald money and Jones with how he's playing is going to be in that $35-$40 million AAV range.  Giants best bet for a WR is going to have to come via the draft, IMO.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

2023 might have little to none wiggle room, but if you look at the 2024 cap space, that's about 179.8M workable cap space.  Let say DJ and Saquon take up about 50-53M AAV, we would have about 124.8M still available. 

https://overthecap.com/position/left-tackle
Top salary for LT is 23M and 31M for DT, that's 54M AAV if we retain those 2. 

This is where Joe will have to work his magic.  If he can manage to negotiate with our homegrown talent and take team friendly deals even at 10% discount - that's 100M for our 4 top players.  That's 79.8M alloted for the rest of the roster.  Hopefully, as what we have seen thus far, the general tendency is that the overall cap space has risen over time which should offset the big hit those guys will take in our the team's cap.

And like I said, at this time, trading for Higgins is a pipe dream that's if we don't take a WR in the early rounds.

For those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games.   Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense.  In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's.   There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.

Quote from: GMenRF on January 19, 2023, 12:57:33 AMGoes to show you they don't really watch the games.  If they did this clown would clearly see we've really opened up the playbook like a month ago.  It's ok if they keep harping at DJ's stats and argue that we won't be a playoff team next year.  DJ is more than happy to serve these clowns some crow and humble pie.

Imagine Wan'Dale and possibly another stud WR in this offense.  I know it's a pipe dream, but imagine if Schoen trades for Higgins since the Bengals can't pay him, Burrow and Chase at the same time?  That quick shot in the back of the endzone, if that's Higgins catching the ball thats a TD.

Yes the reason why Cowherd has to discount DJs running ability is because if he includes it, it diminishes his nonsensical point.

For instance if we combine his rushing totals and TDs we get almost 4,000 Yards, 22 TDs 5 Int and a 92.5 RTG, and that is without him playing in the last game.

Yet to Cowherd these stats only show a C QB, and this is why I've begun to lose respect for him, and Nick Wright.

And I can see why you call them clowns because that seems to fit there mentality.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 09:34:38 AMFor those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games.   Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense.  In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's.   There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.

I give minimal consideration to the opposing defense's statistical ranking. They are professionals who get paid very well to stop the other team. How well they do that also depends on the offense they face.

Minnesota's defense took on a Giants offense who, ironically enough, is ranked in the bottom half of the league statistically speaking. The Giants played a nearly flawless game. I'm not knocking down their performance because of where the Vikings defense ranks. Kafka had a very good game plan and the players executed it very well.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 09:34:38 AMFor those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games.  Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense.  In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's.  There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.

Good point, and to add to what you are saying DJ did this in his first playoff game, on the road in a hostile environment, and he was phenomenal.

In fact he played a nearly flawless game.

And for these analysts to double down on there position against him, is showing me because of their pride they cannot be wrong.

Once again let us see how this transpires

Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 18, 2023, 11:15:19 PMSadly, not only is it Nick Wright, but also Colin Cowherd has just come out and said DJ is only a C QB at best.

The opinions of 2 guys who never had any football role at any level and are simply in search of clicks and eyeballs doesn't make me sad, it amuses me.  When it comes to football analysis and knowledge, both those guys are D-.

This is mostly just speculation on my part, but I think the missing ingredient that has raised DJ's game is self-confidence.   DJ had flashed most of what we are seeing him do more consistently.  It seemed like at some point this season DJ started to believe in himself and his abilities and after that, he really just flourished.

Quote from: GMenRF on January 19, 2023, 08:32:29 AMhttps://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

2023 might have little to none wiggle room, but if you look at the 2024 cap space, that's about 179.8M workable cap space.  Let say DJ and Saquon take up about 50-53M AAV, we would have about 124.8M still available. 

https://overthecap.com/position/left-tackle
Top salary for LT is 23M and 31M for DT, that's 54M AAV if we retain those 2. 

This is where Joe will have to work his magic.  If he can manage to negotiate with our homegrown talent and take team friendly deals even at 10% discount - that's 100M for our 4 top players.  That's 79.8M alloted for the rest of the roster.  Hopefully, as what we have seen thus far, the general tendency is that the overall cap space has risen over time which should offset the big hit those guys will take in our the team's cap.

And like I said, at this time, trading for Higgins is a pipe dream that's if we don't take a WR in the early rounds.

You also have to factor in the Lawrence contract hit and the potential Andrew Thomas contract hit in 2024.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 19, 2023, 09:54:23 AMYes the reason why Cowherd has to discount DJs running ability is because if he includes it, it diminishes his nonsensical point.

For instance if we combine his rushing totals and TDs we get almost 4,000 Yards, 22 TDs 5 Int and a 92.5 RTG, and that is without him playing in the last game.

Yet to Cowherd these stats only show a C QB, and this is why I've begun to lose respect for him, and Nick Wright.

And I can see why you call them clowns because that seems to fit there mentality.

Cowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 10:42:17 AMCowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.

Jess,

I think it's fair to consider DJ's whole career

Rookie year-  Jones had a very good rookie season with the exception of turnovers.  Jones needed to show he could fix the turnover issue or he could be a bust.

Year 2 and 3-  the Judge/Garrett years, yuck

Year 4-  If you look at his entire season, he played like a "fringe top 10" (7 QBR and 13 QB rating), if you look at his last 5 games, he played like a fringe top 5 QB.  Jones more than fixed his TO issue to the point where he had the lowest INT rate in the league. 

Beyond that, you need to look past the stats.  You have to consider the affection and respect DJ's coaches and fellow players have for him.  That is a good indicator of having the "IT" factor (along with having his best game in the most important game) as well as having the leadership you need from your franchise QB.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 10:42:17 AMCowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.

Hi,

All good points you make, and I agree with you that DJ has flourished these past 5 games, no doubt.

I also agree with you that DJ is playing as a fringe top 10 QB also, another solid point you made.

However, my main issue with Cowherd was that he isn't even giving DJ a B- grade, not even a C+, he's giving him a C grade. Do you think that is reasonable? Especially after the performances that he has delivered as of late?

Just curious then what grade would you give DJ? Do you agree with Cowherd?

Also, I appreciate that we can have this discussion respectfully, it's so far been a pleasure.

Now onto your next points, I also agree with you that he was excellent in the Jacksonville game, no doubt.

I would say that we need to remember DJ was still learning this new offense under Daboll and Kafka, but could it be reasoned that as the year went on, as DJ was getting more comfortable with it, Daboll began to give him more and more reign, and to let him just spin it to see what he could do?

We combine that with the fact that DJ has said in the past, that he now knows what it takes to win in the NFL, and voila we are now seeing the fruits of that labor.

In other words, the DJ that we saw in the beginning of the year, is not the DJ that you are seeing now? What do you think?

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 11:35:55 AMJess,

I think it's fair to consider DJ's whole career

Rookie year-  Jones had a very good rookie season with the exception of turnovers.  Jones needed to show he could fix the turnover issue or he could be a bust.

Year 2 and 3-  the Judge/Garrett years, yuck

Year 4-  If you look at his entire season, he played like a "fringe top 10" (7 QBR and 13 QB rating), if you look at his last 5 games, he played like a fringe top 5 QB.  Jones more than fixed his TO issue to the point where he had the lowest INT rate in the league. 

Beyond that, you need to look past the stats.  You have to consider the affection and respect DJ's coaches and fellow players have for him.  That is a good indicator of having the "IT" factor (along with having his best game in the most important game) as well as having the leadership you need from your franchise QB.

I understand all of that, what I was referring to is all the posts of the videos that say apologize now, or how could you doubt him, and saying critics were wrong or being unrealistic because just a month ago Daniel had a stretch of 6 games where there was real doubt. From the Seattle game until the first Philly game there were serious problems with this offense and serious question marks about the QB in particular. So after a really great outing the past 5 weeks we can all be really happy that we are thriving as a team while also being grounded and realize there were serious problems with the offense including the Qb for portions of the season because there were. Like I said really happy we found our groove and the offense is functioning at a high level bit we definitely hit some Seattle, detriot, Dallas, and Philly sized pot holes along the way.

Quote from: T200 on January 19, 2023, 10:02:18 AMI give minimal consideration to the opposing defense's statistical ranking. They are professionals who get paid very well to stop the other team. How well they do that also depends on the offense they face.

Minnesota's defense took on a Giants offense who, ironically enough, is ranked in the bottom half of the league statistically speaking. The Giants played a nearly flawless game. I'm not knocking down their performance because of where the Vikings defense ranks. Kafka had a very good game plan and the players executed it very well.

I did think in the moment watching the game that Kafka got a little to cute at points during the game including going back to the Jones running well one to many times, using Breida when Barkley was white hot and barely got any touch etc.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 19, 2023, 12:35:02 PMHi,

All good points you make, and I agree with you that DJ has flourished these past 5 games, no doubt.

I also agree with you that DJ is playing as a fringe top 10 QB also, another solid point you made.

However, my main issue with Cowherd was that he isn't even giving DJ a B- grade, not even a C+, he's giving him a C grade. Do you think that is reasonable? Especially after the performances that he has delivered as of late?

Just curious then what grade would you give DJ? Do you agree with Cowherd?

Also, I appreciate that we can have this discussion respectfully, it's so far been a pleasure.

Now onto your next points, I also agree with you that he was excellent in the Jacksonville game, no doubt.

I would say that we need to remember DJ was still learning this new offense under Daboll and Kafka, but could it be reasoned that as the year went on, as DJ was getting more comfortable with it, Daboll began to give him more and more reign, and to let him just spin it to see what he could do?

We combine that with the fact that DJ has said in the past, that he now knows what it takes to win in the NFL, and voila we are now seeing the fruits of that labor.

In other words, the DJ that we saw in the beginning of the year, is not the DJ that you are seeing now? What do you think?

I completely agree that he was learning a new offense so that took time, I'm not sure if it was playing calling, him not being comfortable, or them just having a leash on him initially but like I was telling Rich the offense looks completely different in the last 5 games than the 6 game stretch from Detroit to the first Philly game. The national media probably don't watch a ton of Giants games and for most of them are probably going off of our more high profiled meetings in Dallas, Philly, Seattle etc and so to change a narrative around Jones that he's had for 4 years will likely take longer than 5 games.

I like to think there are flows to a season and at the beginning of the season Jones was doing his part in our wins so I'd give him a B for the early portion and then a C for the Detriot to first Philly stretch, and then an A for the final stretch. Like I said above it's hard to know what took him or the offense so long to click whether they were being held back or what, but if they opened up the playbook all season like they have the past 5 games I believe the perception of Jones would have already changed but because it's just now a lot of people will assume the team just got hot instead of Jones maturation in the offense. I can see both sides but obviously see the progression he's made week to week and think the way he played last week is his longterm outlook going forward. That's not to say I wouldn't feel more conformable if he goes out and repeats the Vikings performance on a really good Philly defense.