Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: katkavage on February 22, 2024, 02:28:57 PMThe Giants always try to play it safe. They don't like bold move (part of the Mara tradition). They are a conservative organization. As a result, with a few exceptions when they broke that mold (George Young, a dynamic though troubled playmaker (LT), Trade for Eli) we Giant fans suffer with continuous mediocrity.

Quite so. I don't think we need 23 and Me or Ancestry to confirm what has been in the Mara gene pool for the not better part of the past 99 years.

Cheers!

Since we have absolutely no knowledge of what is in the mind of Schoen all we do is sit here and speculate and give our own summations of the whys the hows and the what-ifs.

Seems everyone considers Barkely gone, but maybe the higher-ups just don't feel this way. Maybe Mara, in his high tower, sees a good guy like Barkley as the face of the Giants, the only real guy people talk about in a very positive way and he didn't want him gone, traded whatever. As was said, maybe McKinney was supposed to be the face of the defense, especially in Wink's defense, so why would he be traded away? As for LW, again we have no idea what goes on in the locker room, plus, I think, to a man here on this board and everywhere else, felt we got a tremendous deal for LW, so why not jump at it?

Personally, I am still happy Barkely and McKinney are still Giants, and regardless of what others think I hope they both remain Giants.

Quote from: Giant Jim on February 22, 2024, 01:32:34 PMNot trading players that will be free (UFA) at the end of the season when the team has a losing record at the deadline makes about as much sense as trading draft picks away at the deadline for a DT/DE that's going to be a UFA at the end of that season. The more changes they make, the more things remain the same.

Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 03:08:41 PMThe irony is, a significant portion of fans on this site thought the LW trade was a good move, as well as retaining Barkley until the Giants were officially eliminated. In short, there seems to be a lot of hindsight lately.  Reflection is great; however, it seems unfair for the same fan who defended retaining Barkley/trading for LW to now criticized the franchise and those transactions...

My post referring to the first Leonard Williams trade is not in hindsight. I never agreed with it. I was in shock when they made the trade to obtain him. They were in position to be sellers at that time, certainly not buyers for a rental player. The contracts he signed with the Giants were for the team to save face. I don't appreciate your implication that I changed my feelings about the situation after the fact. I never posted I was in favor of the first Williams trade or keeping Barkley & McKinney at the last deadline knowing they would be UFA's after the 2nd half of the season. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:15:56 PMLet me get this straight

4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW

4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick

So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was.  They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.

 

It was terrible because they could've lost him for nothing. They got him to finish a losing season, then with no bargaining power, had to pay him extremely high salaries to keep him. He was far from the last piece of the puzzle to get them deep into the playoffs. He probably would've been free for them to go after when that season ended. They got a return for him last year, but overall, it was a tremendous gamble for a team that needed so many upgrades back then.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:15:56 PMLet me get this straight

4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW

4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick

So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was.  They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.

 

You could make the case that his cap hit was far greater than his impact on the field, and that those dollars wisely invested elsewhere would have improved the team.

Quote from: Giant Jim on February 22, 2024, 04:07:44 PMIt was terrible because they could've lost him for nothing. They got him to finish a losing season, then with no bargaining power, had to pay him extremely high salaries to keep him. He was far from the last piece of the puzzle to get them deep into the playoffs. He probably would've been free for them to go after when that season ended. They got a return for him last year, but overall, it was a tremendous gamble for a team that needed so many upgrades back then.

My sincere apologies, Jim; I clearly remember your thoughts on the matter and wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that not trading away players with value was equally absurd.  Again, my apologies for being so imprecise. 

Count me in as one who remains convinced that the original Williams was a horrible move.  I don't get how any other position on this makes any sense.  But, Schoen's trade to get more than Williams was worth was, I think, his best personnel move since he got the job.  I get that money was a factor but getting a 2nd was a heist.

Not a loaded question.  Has any NY team in any sport, ever tanked?  I can't think of one and I go back years.  The NY ticket prices are so high that Incan see owners not letting this happen.  But, I'm asking if there are examples of tanking which is what the Giants would have done by trading Barkley and McKinney when they traded Williams.

Tanking means purposely losing. Trading players, when there's a good chance they'd lose them after the season anyway, to get some value in a lost season is not tanking. It also gives late round draft picks and undrafted free agents the chance to gain experience and show if they're worth bringing back the next season. You never know who will come off the bench and win a game. McKinney played every down last year, but look what Dane Belton did vs Philly that last game.

Didn't the Rangers sell off a few years ago when they sent out the letter? They didn't tank. The Yankees dumped players during losing seasons. While you could say they might've given up on the season, they weren't trying to lose.

Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 05:15:42 PMMy sincere apologies, Jim; I clearly remember your thoughts on the matter and wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that not trading away players with value was equally absurd.  Again, my apologies for being so imprecise. 

Thank You. Before salary caps and free agency, it was hard to accept these trades which in some cases were favorite players. Today's game is so different. Teams have less than 4 seasons to determine if they should try to extend a player to somewhat control his salary or chance them getting an astronomical contract via free agency. I don't want to lose McKinney or Barkley, but now that other teams can bid and drive up their price, the Giants probably won't want or be able to match.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:44:27 PMI wouldn't disagree that the Giants overestimated their talent level, but I wonder how much of the painfully slow start was due to coaching errors (like Daboll's country club training camp)

News to me. Who reported this?

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 22, 2024, 07:26:40 PMNews to me. Who reported this?

The country club training camp?   I have to confess, as a long-time attendee, I had never seen one that was as easy.   Remember when they went to Detroit, and they were taken aback by how hard the Lions players were practicing?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 07:36:54 PMThe country club training camp?   I have to confess, as a long-time attendee, I had never seen one that was as easy.   Remember when they went to Detroit, and they were taken aback by how hard the Lions players were practicing?

So it's your opinion. Fair enough

Ten (10) Captains.  One (1) Pro Bowler.  What's wrong with this picture?  What an organization.

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 22, 2024, 08:13:08 PMSo it's your opinion. Fair enough

Beat reporters were reporting it, as well.  I am just saying that I witnessed the same thing

My best guess on not trading Saquon at that time:

Two words - John Mara


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