Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on February 29, 2024, 09:29:40 AMI can't think of a single team that would pay DJ $41M/yr, vice drafting a QB. The latter will be much cheaper and have the potential to be more than a bottom 10 passer. I wish you were right, Ed...I just view his contract, relative to his ability/performance to be a massive hurdle.

Although I believe it's time to move on and draft a QB, I don't believe he's as broken as he appeared last season. With a halfway decent Line, he can be an 8-12 QB if he can use his legs coming back from injury in the right system. I would take him over Jimmy G and Derek Card and that entire group of QB's which include Darnold and Mayfield. He's never been on a second team and lets face it, the Daboll/Kafka Offense has a lot to prove. I think he can be better than he showed in 2022. The new bar for a top five QB is 60mm. 40 mil is going to be the bar for these middling QB's.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 09:18:54 AMThe part in bold simply is not accurate.  Take 2022 the one season where DJ had good coaching but below average blocking and receiving.

QB rating 13
QBR 6th
PFF 17th

That is not bottom third, not even close.

Rich the one season you are pointing to he barely threw it beyond 20 yards before December. One season Where the passing offense was still bottom 3rd and everyone acted like him matching Davis Mills production was some huge deal. This is why we are were we are now because people thought Daniel Jones barely throwing over 200 yards 6 times was some great accomplishment.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 08:55:45 AMQuite obvious those cheap shots were over your head.

Just perplexes me that we are still having a Daniel Jones debate going into year 6.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 28, 2024, 02:21:41 PMIn fairness, there seems to be a taboo against talking about a player's mental abilities.  We know pretty much every physical aspect of a player, even the size of their hands, but for anything testing that involves the mind, the NFL and the players seemed to be determined to keep it secret.  They never publish the Wonderlics (although they tend to leak out), and players and agents were even upset with the results of the new S2 test that is supposed to measure processing speed to leak out.

Thinking back, unless it's praising a player's toughness, work ethic, or leadership, you don't hear much talk about a player beyond the physical.  The days of publicly questioning a player's toughness, or intelligence, or even leadership seem to have passed (remember Parcells referring to a player as "she"?)

Why not ask Terry Bradshaw about being publicky called a "dumb" quarterback, or having it inferred via the amount of time it took him to develop under an authoritarian coach who never spoke up in his defense; i.e. when Hollywood Henderson or others would offer soundbits in public about the quarterback.

Some might call Bradshaw hypersensitive but he grew into one of the greatest, toughest leaders ever to play the game. Yet, to this day, those words and inferences still hurt as if they happened yesterday:

Terry Bradshaw

Bringing this back to the Giants, Schoen and Daboll, Mara as well, have stepped up and admitted that this football team succeeded in screwing Jones up. So, from that alone, we know Daniel is being given every opportunity possible to turn his career around. It very well may be too little, too late, but he has been first class and worn the colors well even if success has eluded him, for the most part. But to suggest that anyone hates him, in my opinion, has issues they are projecting on someone they know can't reply back, or wouldn't have the balls to say it to Daniels' face anyway.

If Daniel redeems himself, then you won't find an individual more excited than I will be. If he is unable to, I will continue to back him for every snap he plays for the Giants. If it doesn't work out, it is far less about him than it is the systematic issues with the football organization which set him, and other players of considerable to high potential, up for ultimate disappointment. Unfortunately, some of those issues are above Joe Scoen's pay grade.

Peace!

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 29, 2024, 07:48:53 AMDrew choked against better Defenses.

Ed: I'm not sure you're serious but I'll take that remark at face value. I can only re-watch one game per day, but I'll eventually review the 3 they lost, each of which was against a higher-ranked team.

Before starting with Penn State at Ohio State, you may not know Coach Franklin's record against AP Top Ten teams is currently 3-18 (counting the three in 2023) and his road record in those games is 0-10. So, to begin with, you've got a sophomore QB and a head coach who can't win big games, especially on the road.  Against Ohio State, the three things you need to know are:

(1) Both D's allowed 1.9 yards per carry against the run; game was decided through the air. Chop Robinson, PSU's top pass rusher was injured and out early in the 2nd quarter, and the "pressure" battle was clearly won by Ohio State.

(2) There was no "choke" at QB.  Allar threw two bad passes of 27 and no INT's, despite playing from behind through all four quarters; pressure was constant, with maybe three plays where he had time to even consider a long ball. On short and intermediate passes, the receivers were not open very often, and when they were, the passes were on-target and completed (except for two drops and two or three passes defended).

(3) If the teams switched QB's, the same team would have won. If the teams switched number-one WR's, Penn State would have won. The difference was Harrison, Jr. The ball went to him in almost every critical situation (as it should have). The coaches waited for those moments and schemed him away from Penn State's best CB's very well (and with success more often than not), especially in the second half. 

Bob

What Schoen wasn't asked to address was the fact that Jones was outplayed this year by the other Giant QBs. I understand he faced tougher defenses and that there may be some other mitigating factors but the bottom line is that the vast cost gap between Jones and the other two means it shouldn't have even been remotely close. To me that's damning as hell and kind of closes the book, from my perspective at least. I appreciate that some fans just don't want to let go of this fantasy that he'a a really good QB who just hasn't had the help he needs, but the evidence that he's simply not very good and not getting better is pretty overwhelming. And that doesn't even address the durability issues with this player, which are also hugely problematic.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 29, 2024, 08:28:53 AMI will say there is one striking difference between how GM Joe Schoen views the Jones situation versus how the majority of fans see it.   Schoen recognizes that there are factors that can impact a quarterback's play that are out of their control, while many fans think the "right" quarterback can play great regardless of circumstance.

Both can be true.

Many here have readily acknowledged the non-QB factors that can affect how productive the QB is, while simultaneously realizing that better QB play is possible despite the less-than-stellar support.

I'm willing to bet a medium Pepsi that Schoen feels the same.

Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:45:06 AMBoth can be true.

Many here have readily acknowledged the non-QB factors that can affect how productive the QB is, while simultaneously realizing that better QB play is possible despite the less-than-stellar support.

I'm willing to bet a medium Pepsi that Schoen feels the same.

Schoen recognizes that PFF wasn't off to rank the Giants dead last in pass protection and receiver and he understands that no QB can properly function in that environment.   That is not compatible with the view of so many fans that fault Jones for not performing much better than he did.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:49:28 AMSchoen recognizes that PFF wasn't off to rank the Giants dead last in pass protection and receiver and he understands that no QB can properly function in that environment.   That is not compatible with the view of so many fans that fault Jones for not performing much better than he did.

I don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.

Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up draft capital to move up for him.

Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:54:58 AMI don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.

Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up trade capital to move up for him.

If Schoen share the views of the fans on this forum, he never would have paid Jones what he paid him.

Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:54:58 AMI don't disagree that there are fans who don't consider the other factors, as previously mentioned. Those are not the people I'm talking about.

Schoen is a smart guy. He's not going to publicly paint Jones in any kind of negative light. If he grabs a QB in this draft, that will let everyone know how he truly feels about Jones going forward. Especially if he has to give up trade capital to move up for him.

Agreed, Tim.

I would further add that if Schoen in this offseason opts to not spread out this $47mm 2024 cap hit (by essentially committing to more years with Jones), that will also be telling insofar as his present level of confidence in Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:56:44 AMIf Schoen share the views of the fans on this forum, he never would have paid Jones what he paid him.

Not everything is absolute, Rich. Sharing an assessment of Jones does not include sharing thoughts on the Jones contract. Two different things.

Quote from: T200 on March 01, 2024, 08:58:22 AMNot everything is absolute, Rich. Sharing an assessment of Jones does not include sharing thoughts on the Jones contract. Two different things.

Tim, it's not a matter of absolutes.  It's simply been that there is a sizeable portion of the fan base (and it's represented here) that is highly critical of Jones.  I don't think one needs absolutes to fairly say that Schoen has a higher opinion of Daniel Jones than the fans who are strong critics of the man.   No GM would signed a QB to what the Giants signed Jones to, if they felt about Jones the way the critics feel about him, it's just not done.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 08:57:39 AMAgreed, Tim.

I would further add that if Schoen in this offseason opts to not spread out this $47mm 2024 cap hit (by essentially committing to more years with Jones), that will also be telling insofar as his present level of confidence in Jones.

I truly believe the contract was due to the playoff win and Mara's preference to keep Jones.

Schoen already let everyone know that he didn't want Jones when he didn't pick up the 5th-year option. Then, the deal was structured to be able to dump Jones after two years. Two years to get a QB in the draft.

He will not have his career defined by a QB he didn't bring in.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 09:03:11 AMTim, it's not a matter of absolutes.  It's simply been that there is a sizeable portion of the fan base (and it's represented here) that is highly critical of Jones.  I don't think one needs absolutes to fairly say that Schoen has a higher opinion of Daniel Jones than the fans who are strong critics of the man.   No GM would signed a QB to what the Giants signed Jones to, if they felt about Jones the way the critics feel about him, it's just not done.

Rich,

All I'm saying is Schoen's evaluation of Jones and what quite a few of us have said of Jones match up.

Your bringing up the contract situation is not part of what I'm addressing. You're trying to lump them together and that's why I said it's not absolute. We can agree on one aspect but not the other.