Big Blue Huddle

Everyone says you can get good interior OL players later in the draft as they are typically chased less in early rounds.  Lots of teams find success there.  Guys like Michael Onwenu of Pats, Trey Smith of the Chiefs, etc.

Giants double dipped with Eze and McKethan.  Both are near fails.  Imagine if one turned out to be a good starter at Guard and one was a good backup.  We'd be so much better off with our OL.

True. And it's not just Schoen. The Giants haven't drafted a decent starting OL later in the draft since probably David Diehl. That's 20+ years of failing to find a 4th or 5th round pick who can come in and be a quality starter on the OL.

I can't kill Schoen too much for McKeethan as he was a fifth rounder, plus he got severely hurt as a rookie, stunting his development early in his career. The Ezeudu pick however was legit awful. Not just because of the end result, but the fact that he was billed as a developmental guy the day after we drafted him had me scratching my head. When you take a guard in the early third round (ie a non-premium position), you're expecting to get someone who can be a serviceable starter as a rookie, if not better than serviceable. Ezeudu couldn't be further than that. He was a reach, and just not a good pick at all. I have no idea what Schoen was doing there, but that pick is definitely a strike against him.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 09, 2024, 01:20:50 PMEveryone says you can get good interior OL players later in the draft as they are typically chased less in early rounds.  Lots of teams find success there.  Guys like Michael Onwenu of Pats, Trey Smith of the Chiefs, etc.

Giants double dipped with Eze and McKethan.  Both are near fails.  Imagine if one turned out to be a good starter at Guard and one was a good backup.  We'd be so much better off with our OL.

Both were primarily tackles at UNC. I don't like drafting tackles and trying to convert them to safety. It can be done I just prefer dudes who have been inside their entires lives.

Quote from: madbadger on March 09, 2024, 02:02:57 PMBoth were primarily tackles at UNC. I don't like drafting tackles and trying to convert them to safety. It can be done I just prefer dudes who have been inside their entires lives.

100% fair point.  When I hear convert, I immediately think "Clint Simtin." 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 09, 2024, 01:30:04 PMI can't kill Schoen too much for McKeethan as he was a fifth rounder, plus he got severely hurt as a rookie, stunting his development early in his career. The Ezeudu pick however was legit awful. Not just because of the end result, but the fact that he was billed as a developmental guy the day after we drafted him had me scratching my head. When you take a guard in the early third round (ie a non-premium position), you're expecting to get someone who can be a serviceable starter as a rookie, if not better than serviceable. Ezeudu couldn't be further than that. He was a reach, and just not a good pick at all. I have no idea what Schoen was doing there, but that pick is definitely a strike against him.

When he was drafted we had folks here saying he would be starting before the end of the season. Nobody knows how these players will work out at the pro level. That's why I believe paying a premium for a proven Guard is a good investment. I'm a little concerned that bringing in a new O-line coach would drop the need to fix this Line in the list of priorities. Although it is disappointing to see players like Feliciano, Zeitler, and Hernandez have success elsewhere. I do hope to see improvement in JMS at Center because he's not a Guard and neither is Neal. While we're on the subject of O-lines. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 09, 2024, 02:14:34 PMWhen he was drafted we had folks here saying he would be starting before the end of the season. Nobody knows how these players will work out at the pro level. That's why I believe paying a premium for a proven Guard is a good investment. I'm a little concerned that bringing in a new O-line coach would drop the need to fix this Line in the list of priorities. Although it is disappointing to see players like Feliciano, Zeitler, and Hernandez have success elsewhere. I do hope to see improvement in JMS at Center because he's not a Guard and neither is Neal. While we're on the subject of O-lines. 

We beat this subject over and over, insert a Giant entity, today it is Schoen, tomorrow it could be the guy serving the medium Pepsis, I don't know, but laying failure on one person or another just doesn't seem right when we're looking to identify the "right" problem and then go and solve it and verify it has correctly been solved. This ongoing issue with the offensive line appears to have both individual direct causes as well as collective systematic issues.

If I'm off my rocker, then please call me out and correct me, but it all starts with a head coach who hires an offensive coordinator and other offensive position coaches, to include the offensive line coach, to implement an offensive strategy (or something to that objective). There is a master plan, tailored for each game they play, which is broken down to the lowest order unit team (e.g. offensive line). Let's consider the O-Line. In itself, it is an integrated group of five men working together as a cohesive unit during execution for every offensive play. Let's focus on that.

What do you need to have a cohesive offensive line work in tandem as one integrated unit? Feel free to jump in if I miss something. 1. Physical qualifications, 2. Playbook competency, 3. Sufficient on the job training/practice, to include working with your quarterback(s) 4. Sufficient study on your opponents, 5. Effective coaching to continually improve the unit by individual and collectively. 6. Intangibles.

If the Giants are NOT drafting or signing NFL talent that will improve their team, then that falls on the scouting and GM and possibly the head coach depending how much input he has in the process. They have to not only identify talent, but the right talent that will benefit what the head coach and the coordinators are trying to accomplish.

Based on what happened last season, a change in the offensive line coach was needed and not many would argue with that. That may be one of the direct causes for the lost season and we'll find out in September. On the other hand, fixing the O-Line will help, but not solve, the lack of talent on the rest of the offense. It's going to be different in a dramatic way if #26 signs elsewhere.

Don't be surprised if the Giants bolster both lines via free agency which opens the draft up to plenty of other options.

If the Giants could win Super Bowls with David Diehl, Rich Seubert (post-compound leg fracture), and even old Suburbanites Billy Ard and Chris Godfrey, with the right Offensive Line Coach they'll be able to find that diamond in the rough in the 5th or 6th round. But I think having the right head coach, more so than any one person, in the final analysis, will be the catalyst to make that happen, not Schoen.

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on March 09, 2024, 04:51:36 PMWe beat this subject over and over, insert a Giant entity, today it is Schoen, tomorrow it could be the guy serving the medium Pepsis, I don't know, but laying failure on one person or another just doesn't seem right when we're looking to identify the "right" problem and then go and solve it and verify it has correctly been solved. This ongoing issue with the offensive line appears to have both individual direct causes as well as collective systematic issues.

If I'm off my rocker, then please call me out and correct me, but it all starts with a head coach who hires an offensive coordinator and other offensive position coaches, to include the offensive line coach, to implement an offensive strategy (or something to that objective). There is a master plan, tailored for each game they play, which is broken down to the lowest order unit team (e.g. offensive line). Let's consider the O-Line. In itself, it is an integrated group of five men working together as a cohesive unit during execution for every offensive play. Let's focus on that.

What do you need to have a cohesive offensive line work in tandem as one integrated unit? Feel free to jump in if I miss something. 1. Physical qualifications, 2. Playbook competency, 3. Sufficient on the job training/practice, to include working with your quarterback(s) 4. Sufficient study on your opponents, 5. Effective coaching to continually improve the unit by individual and collectively. 6. Intangibles.

If the Giants are NOT drafting or signing NFL talent that will improve their team, then that falls on the scouting and GM and possibly the head coach depending how much input he has in the process. They have to not only identify talent, but the right talent that will benefit what the head coach and the coordinators are trying to accomplish.

Based on what happened last season, a change in the offensive line coach was needed and not many would argue with that. That may be one of the direct causes for the lost season and we'll find out in September. On the other hand, fixing the O-Line will help, but not solve, the lack of talent on the rest of the offense. It's going to be different in a dramatic way if #26 signs elsewhere.

Don't be surprised if the Giants bolster both lines via free agency which opens the draft up to plenty of other options.

If the Giants could win Super Bowls with David Diehl, Rich Seubert (post-compound leg fracture), and even old Suburbanites Billy Ard and Chris Godfrey, with the right Offensive Line Coach they'll be able to find that diamond in the rough in the 5th or 6th round. But I think having the right head coach, more so than any one person, in the final analysis, will be the catalyst to make that happen, not Schoen.

Peace!

So... long story short, it's more than one thing.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 09, 2024, 05:00:31 PMSo... long story short, it's more than one thing.

Pretty much. When was the last time the Giants drafted and developed an OL in the fourth round or later. It's been over 20 years by my count. This is spanning 3 GMs, 5 HCs, and who knows how many OL coaches. But nothing changes. So they're forced to invest high draft picks and big dollars in free agency and they still can't get it right. It's organizational.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on March 09, 2024, 06:03:32 PMPretty much. When was the last time the Giants drafted and developed an OL in the fourth round or later. It's been over 20 years by my count. This is spanning 3 GMs, 5 HCs, and who knows how many OL coaches. But nothing changes. So they're forced to invest high draft picks and big dollars in free agency and they still can't get it right. It's organizational.

Parcells knew the drill, so did Coughlin, Fassell kind of did as well. But, as I said before, that was only part of the equation. Each head coach also had their guy, be it Simms, Hostetler, Collins or Manning. Each of those coaches eventually got to or near the top; however, it took each four (4) years for them to get there.

Yes, more than one thing. Sorry it took a lot of words last time. I'm working on that.

Peace!

I agree Schoen has failed in fixing the O line; however that is not for lack of effort; He has added and dropped multiple players through free agency, in addition to dedicating a high amount of draft capital to the position.
Certainly, when he, along with his coaches and scouts, were making each of those decisions, they were pretty certain about them; so why were they wrong?
Is it not simple to realize that they, collectively are weak in assessing O line talent?
To me it's clear as day; when they look at an O lineman, whether he is on their own roster, or a potential draftee or free agent acquisition, they lack the eye that many other teams have, in order to make the right decisions.
I just hope they have made some effective changes in their scouting of the position.

Quote from: GloryDays on March 10, 2024, 01:20:49 AMI agree Schoen has failed in fixing the O line; however that is not for lack of effort; He has added and dropped multiple players through free agency, in addition to dedicating a high amount of draft capital to the position.
Certainly, when he, along with his coaches and scouts, were making each of those decisions, they were pretty certain about them; so why were they wrong?
Is it not simple to realize that they, collectively are weak in assessing O line talent?
To me it's clear as day; when they look at an O lineman, whether he is on their own roster, or a potential draftee or free agent acquisition, they lack the eye that many other teams have, in order to make the right decisions.
I just hope they have made some effective changes in their scouting of the position.

The QBs and Oline played much better when Shoen got the guy off the couch to play.

The mistake was not being smart enough to get him earlier to help Daniel Jones

He appears to be failing today as all sorts of teams were ready at the get go and are making moves. Someone wake up Joe

Quote from: GloryDays on March 10, 2024, 01:20:49 AMI agree Schoen has failed in fixing the O line; however that is not for lack of effort; He has added and dropped multiple players through free agency, in addition to dedicating a high amount of draft capital to the position.
Certainly, when he, along with his coaches and scouts, were making each of those decisions, they were pretty certain about them; so why were they wrong?
Is it not simple to realize that they, collectively are weak in assessing O line talent?
To me it's clear as day; when they look at an O lineman, whether he is on their own roster, or a potential draftee or free agent acquisition, they lack the eye that many other teams have, in order to make the right decisions.
I just hope they have made some effective changes in their scouting of the position.

The jury is still out.

We all want to see immediate improvement but it's not realistic. We don't have the foundation for a quick turnaround.

Looks like he's having a rough day today our GM boy wonder