Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: JT39 on March 13, 2024, 10:05:29 AMYou are assuming he would have came here.

Thats a big mistake fans often make when looking at FA - "well we could have just signed so and so..."

- maybe we reached out and they werent interested
- maybe we think Burns is a much better player

We cant assume every FA would have signed with us if we went a different route.

There were enough quality edge rushers available that one of them would have signed if they were offered a contract that made them the 2nd highest paid Edge rusher in the league

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on March 13, 2024, 09:24:57 AMWho did you want to use the cap space on? The team needs star players and those guys don't grow on trees. As it stands, it's a 3 year commitment to Burns, so he will need to live up to expectations if he wants to see the full contract paid out, and the cap hit is much easier to swallow once Daniel Jones is off the team next year.

No one in mind.  If he continues to be a 9 sack guy that plays mediocre run defense I think it will ultimately be considered similar to the Olivier Vernon signing. 

I hope he plays his best football over the next several years but just like the team hasn't drafted well, they haven't signed a lot of FAs that came in lived up to it either.  This is this regime's first big signing, but the lesser ones on the OL didn't work out too well thus far, so while I understand your sentiment, not sure I have any more confidence in the pro-personnel department than I have in the college scouting.

Really my biggest issue is that it feels like a little desperation on Schoen's and Daboll's part.  Its year 3 of the regime, and they took huge steps backwards last year and now have new coordinators that need new guys and the HC needs to turn things around to keep his job.  Just seems like familiar territory. 

Whether Jones's contract is there or not and its easier to digest his cap hit, its sill 60 million+ in cap space for 3 players on the DL over the next few years if Dex, Burns and Thibodeaux all stay put. Maybe 23% of the cap in one position group is healthy, it doesn't seem it to me, but the DL is pretty important, especially in a division with two of the best OLs in the league.

Bottom line is that I think this could work really well to have bookend DEs that can rush the passer and create a great DL, but I am skeptical.  Pass rushers are a lot better when a team scores a lot of points and has the lead.  Has the team done anything to date to make you think the offense will improve?  Further, what other moves need to be made on defense to fit the scheme?  Is McFadden going to fit this scheme?  How about the guys in the secondary?  Is it heavy man or zone? 

I am going to be skeptical until I see results. 

In essence it comes down to this: Schoen's theory of team building is "positional value"...pay the big bucks to positions that are game changers. It was Bill Belichick's theory of team building. As pointed out in this morning's NY Post (subscriber's only), [some excerpts] "...in this team-building theory (the GM) weighs offensive line, edge rusher, cornerback and receivers significantly more than running backs, inside linebackers and safeties...

[in picking up Burns]...essentially redirecting the annual cost of running back Saquon Barkley's $12.5 million per year contract and Xavier McKinney's $17 million per year contract...while signing guard Jon Runyan Jr. and tackle Jermaine Eluemunor to be offensive line starters.

It fits with Schoen's use of draft picks so far. He has used his eight-highest draft picks on — and given five of his six free-agent contracts with the biggest guarantees to — players at high-value positions (including quarterback), with the lone exception being every-snap middle linebacker Bobby Okereke."

Conclusion is that the one area considered "high-value" yet to be addressed is WR (as the high value position of CB was addressed last draft) or possibly another CB. Reading the tea leaves suggest that Schoen is eyeing WRs or possibly another CB with his first two picks of this upcoming draft. It is unlikely that Schoen will give the highest contract to a position that is not high-value

On the other hand...no one really knows what Schoen is thinking 

The Jaguars placed the NFL's non-exclusive franchise tag on Allen, meaning he can negotiate and sign with another team. The Jaguars would have the right to match the offer; if the Jaguars did not match the offer in that scenario, they would receive two first-round draft selections from the team that signed Allen.

https://www.jaguars.com/news/official-jaguars-place-franchise-tag-on-josh-allen

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 13, 2024, 09:37:36 AMThe Giants could have signed Josh Allen for that sort of money and kept their draft picks

he was tagged and Jacksonville has shown no interest in trading him, so its 2 different situations.

Walter Football failed to record that

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2024OLB.php

Here are other edge rushers the Giants could have signed without giving up draft capital and likely most of them would have been cheaper than Burns

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2024DE.php

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2024OLB.php

Quote from: JT39 on March 13, 2024, 10:28:38 AMhe was tagged and Jacksonville has shown no interest in trading him, so its 2 different situations.

17.5 sacks... how big would that contract be, $200 million? Plus two first round picks. I don't think he's leaving Jacksonville this year.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 13, 2024, 10:32:35 AMHere are other edge rushers the Giants could have signed without giving up draft capital and likely most of them would have been cheaper than Burns

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2024DE.php

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2024OLB.php

And it could be easily argued that none are nearly as good except for Hunter who cost a little less but is much older.

I'm a big fan of the deal personally.  It ended up being a 2nd and 5th round pick next year for the most part. And what you're getting is a proven commodity that's only 26 years old. 

I love Josh Allen (LB).  I loved him coming out of college.  I was stunned to see him sitting there begging the Giants to take him, and I was ever more stunned to see them pass on him for a mediocre at best QB.  If you gave me the option of one or the other:  Burns trade + Contract or Allen with the contract I'm obviously going to pick Allen. But it's not quite that simple.  We don't know if he wanted to play for the Giants, we don't know if the new DC prefers Burns for his system for some reason.  Not to mention the Jags franchised tagged him.  As well they should.

Are there other free agents that I would prefer to Burns though?  I don't really see any.  Hunter is costing at least that much and he's almost 30 and Chase Young is probably the next guy after that I'd be interested and depending on who you talk to around here he's an outright bust. 

I think Burns better than what else is out there and while the price is hefty if he delivers 10+ sacks on one side and Kayvon delivers 10+ on the other side I don't think anybody will be too worried about the 2nd round pick.  Like any signing or trade the ultimate justification will come when we see them play but given the information at hand, and the fact that very recently a trade of 2 first rounders and a third was offered, I think the Giants robbed the Panthers blind on this deal.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 13, 2024, 10:21:17 AMNo one in mind.  If he continues to be a 9 sack guy that plays mediocre run defense I think it will ultimately be considered similar to the Olivier Vernon signing. 

I hope he plays his best football over the next several years but just like the team hasn't drafted well, they haven't signed a lot of FAs that came in lived up to it either.  This is this regime's first big signing, but the lesser ones on the OL didn't work out too well thus far, so while I understand your sentiment, not sure I have any more confidence in the pro-personnel department than I have in the college scouting.

Really my biggest issue is that it feels like a little desperation on Schoen's and Daboll's part.  Its year 3 of the regime, and they took huge steps backwards last year and now have new coordinators that need new guys and the HC needs to turn things around to keep his job.  Just seems like familiar territory. 

Whether Jones's contract is there or not and its easier to digest his cap hit, its sill 60 million+ in cap space for 3 players on the DL over the next few years if Dex, Burns and Thibodeaux all stay put. Maybe 23% of the cap in one position group is healthy, it doesn't seem it to me, but the DL is pretty important, especially in a division with two of the best OLs in the league.

Bottom line is that I think this could work really well to have bookend DEs that can rush the passer and create a great DL, but I am skeptical.  Pass rushers are a lot better when a team scores a lot of points and has the lead.  Has the team done anything to date to make you think the offense will improve?  Further, what other moves need to be made on defense to fit the scheme?  Is McFadden going to fit this scheme?  How about the guys in the secondary?  Is it heavy man or zone? 

I am going to be skeptical until I see results. 

Great post. I think the Olivier Vernon callback is a fair caution. If Burns plays like Vernon, good but not great, I think he eventually gets traded or cut. And I'm in complete agreement with your concerns regarding the offense. The Giants took a shot here. They have a lot more work to do if they're going to turn this thing around.

Quote from: Gmo11 on March 13, 2024, 10:35:35 AMI'm a big fan of the deal personally.  It ended up being a 2nd and 5th round pick next year for the most part. And what you're getting is a proven commodity that's only 26 years old. 

I love Josh Allen (LB).  I loved him coming out of college.  I was stunned to see him sitting there begging the Giants to take him, and I was ever more stunned to see them pass on him for a mediocre at best QB.  If you gave me the option of one or the other:  Burns trade + Contract or Allen with the contract I'm obviously going to pick Allen. But it's not quite that simple.  We don't know if he wanted to play for the Giants, we don't know if the new DC prefers Burns for his system for some reason.  Not to mention the Jags franchised tagged him.  As well they should.

Are there other free agents that I would prefer to Burns though?  I don't really see any.  Hunter is costing at least that much and he's almost 30 and Chase Young is probably the next guy after that I'd be interested and depending on who you talk to around here he's an outright bust. 

I think Burns better than what else is out there and while the price is hefty if he delivers 10+ sacks on one side and Kayvon delivers 10+ on the other side I don't think anybody will be too worried about the 2nd round pick.  Like any signing or trade the ultimate justification will come when we see them play but given the information at hand, and the fact that very recently a trade of 2 first rounders and a third was offered, I think the Giants robbed the Panthers blind on this deal.

Imagine being a Raiders fan that draft day, lol

Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 13, 2024, 10:21:17 AMI am going to be skeptical until I see results. 

To be fair, after the last 10 years that should be every Giants' fan posture about every move.

I rated it a 4.  I don't love that contract, mostly because how long will it be before the Giants are legitimate contenders?  Before the massive step back last year, I thought that if Jones, etc kept progressing off of two years ago, maybe the Giants could make some noise this year. Now, forget that.  So, will Burns be 30 before we can legitimately compete?  Will he even be on the team by then, or be a cap casualty?

We are essentially rebuilding, so I would much rather draft than spend big bucks on FA's. 

The price was high but the Salary Cap in 2026 will be near $300 million. Burns will still be in his prime. So should the Giants.