Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on March 20, 2024, 08:31:37 PMI have highlighted three areas in your post that I would like to address.

Your first point was that fans are now using DJ's injury as the reason why he never materialized as a top ten QB. It saddens me that you would make this comment, because I have never used his injury as the reason why he had a difficult year.

Did I specifically mention you?  It was a general observation...

Since you have stated this, maybe you can share with us which posters and commenters were proclaiming this message?

No, I am not going to provide a list of fans that stated DJ was ascending to be a Top 10 QB.  What's the point of calling out fellow posters? 

Your second point, which I highlighted up above was that DJ is a poor QB with poor cogitative abilities.

It further saddens me when someone makes a blanket statement and ignores positive data.

For instance, in 2022 DJ's QB-RTG was 92.5 ranked 13th, and his QBR of 62.9 was ranked 6th amongst his peers.

I did not ignore positive data; I absolutely considered said data, in addition to some of his positive rookie numbers.  However, I strongly recommend you view all available data in the aggregate.  Highlighting one positive data point does not negate the copious amount of data that all leads to the same conclusion.  For example Tryod Tayler, Matt Schaub, Chad Pennington, Terry Bridgewater, Jimmy Garopplolo, Colin Kaepernick, Nick Foles, Alex Simtih and Jameis Winston all have better RTG than Dan Marion and Brett Favre. Does that mean the former QBs are better than the latter?  Obviously not, but it highlights the fallacy of using limited positive data points to form a conclusion.  The reverse is also true; for example, Brett Favre, Payton and Eli Manning are among the historic INT leaders.  Does that mean they're terrible QBs?  Obviously not, as the aggregate data supports a much different conclusion.  I've seen you repeatedly engage in this practice.  Last year, you made the argument DJ was better than L. Jackson because the former beat the latter in a head-to-head match-up.  Obviously, those statements did not age well overtime, which is common when opinions are formed based on preferred data points.  BL, I strongly recommend you always consider the aggregate.  For this discussion, I explicitly used the term passing PRODUCTION.  In the last four years, the Giants have PRODUCED a bottom five passing offense. DJ is not solely responsible for the poor passing production, as he's had less than a perfect OL and no clear #1 WR; still, he's absolutely part of the problem.

As to your final point, which I highlighted above, last year you were also proclaiming that no QB that had his 5th year option declined was ever re-signed, and you were telling all of us that DJ will not be back, and once again you were wrong.

Once again I was wrong?  Anyone who's been around here for 20 years knows I've been fairly accurate with my projections.  I also think you're confusing me with another poster regarding this particular subject. Here's exactly what I said and continue to believe about DJ:

Quote from: kingm56 on November 03, 2020, 11:17:41 AM"I completely agree, Kat!  I think the best we can hope for is a middle of the pack QB; in fact, I just completed an analysis of all 1st round QBs taken post 2013.  None of those QBs matured into anything more than they demonstrated after their first 20 games.  Those waiting for Jones to become something he's incapable of are going to be disappointed; after all, Jones was the SAME QB at Duke.  He was hardly a proficient passer; only amassing a handful of 300+ yard games, while still turning the ball over at a high rate.  Jones was a bad pick, which I hope our next GM corrects this Spring. "
 
I did amend this perspective in 2021 to suggest DJ could become a slightly above average QB (12 – 17), if he had the right supporting cast; yet, I always caveated that analysis with the following: above average QBs don't win SBs in the modern era. I was hoping the Giants would move on from DJ as early as 2020...

Employing an analytical approach and using ALL available data usually leads to accurate projections; although, no person or system is 100% infallible and I'm sure if you search hard enough, you'll find a failed prediction. If you want to play the who's more right/wrong game, we can do so via PM as I have no desire to embarrass you or subject others to such a pedantic exercise.

It saddens you that people disagree with you...why?  I tend to learn more from those I disagree with, than those I agree with me.  I've added my replies in Bold.   

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 07:48:58 AMI think Jones is pretty close to a lock to start in week one if he is cleared by the doctors, which seems solidly above 50/50. I think the real question is how long he stays in that role as the season progresses. Will he stay healthy, and if he does stay healthy will he play well enough to avoid being benched for performance-related reasons? A big part of the answer to this depends on whether they draft a QB or not.

Perfectly stated. At this point, is there something more which needs saying which would not otherwise reflect a personal bias?

Cheers!

Just pathetic. If they think I am paying money to watch this , they have another thing coming. No idea why they are trying so bad to make fetch happen with Jones. The guy clearly sucks.

Quote from: Fletch on March 21, 2024, 10:14:46 AMJust pathetic. If they think I am paying money to watch this , they have another thing coming. No idea why they are trying so bad to make fetch happen with Jones. The guy clearly sucks.

Let's not get carried away. For one thing, I doubt that the Giants know or care about your non-spending habits. But one thing or, more particularly, person whom you ought not to steam roller as part of the blame game is Daniel Jones. Not only did he not ask to be drafted by a talent-challenged team which has done diddly squat for most of a decade plus, but can we name anyone who has worked harder for his now 3 HCs than he? Ne c'est pas?

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on March 21, 2024, 05:58:07 PMLet's not get carried away. For one thing, I doubt that the Giants know or care about your non-spending habits. But one thing or, more particularly, person whom you ought not to steam roller as part of the blame game is Daniel Jones. Not only did he not ask to be drafted by a talent-challenged team which has done diddly squat for most of a decade plus, but can we name anyone who has worked harder for his now 3 HCs than he? Ne c'est pas?

Cheers! 

So that is OK in your view -- to put a garbage product out on the field and have working people paying their hard-earned money and, be subjected to the whims of a clueless owner (or whatever the the heck fix is in to have Jones always be starting QB) when it is so obvious the dude cannot play at that level. Not as starter. He would make a great back up though.

Furthermore, I really do not care how hard Daniel Jones works. He is missing a mental processing part of the game which is probably an instinct which cannot be taught or overcome by hard work. In any case, whenever anyone talks about how hard D JOnes works -- I always like to say wouldn't be much better if he could be more like Aaron Rodgers and be a aloof pot head who needs a haircut, but can ball; rather than a hard worker that can't play?

Quote from: Fletch on March 22, 2024, 03:54:27 PMSo that is OK in your view -- to put a garbage product out on the field and have working people paying their hard-earned money and, be subjected to the whims of a clueless owner (or whatever the the heck fix is in to have Jones always be starting QB) when it is so obvious the dude cannot play at that level. Not as starter. He would make a great back up though.

Furthermore, I really do not care how hard Daniel Jones works. He is missing a mental processing part of the game which is probably an instinct which cannot be taught or overcome by hard work. In any case, whenever anyone talks about how hard D JOnes works -- I always like to say wouldn't be much better if he could be more like Aaron Rodgers and be a aloof pot head who needs a haircut, but can ball; rather than a hard worker that can't play?

If he is as bad as you say he is, then may I ask why did he post a 92.5 RTG and a 60.0 QBR in 2022 ranking him around top ten?

Why did his team make the playoffs in 2022? and actually win a game?

Furthermore, in the first 5 games of 2023 he faced two top five defenses, his pro bowl LT missed almost all 5 games, Barkley was gone after game 2, and he had to get rid of the ball in less than 2 seconds on almost every snap.

If the Giants strengthen the O line, and they draft a #1 WR and they start winning, will you concede that maybe he wasn't as bad as you said he was?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on March 22, 2024, 08:45:49 PMIf he is as bad as you say he is, then may I ask why did he post a 92.5 RTG and a 60.0 QBR in 2022 ranking him around top ten?

Why did his team make the playoffs in 2022? and actually win a game?

Furthermore, in the first 5 games of 2023 he faced two top five defenses, his pro bowl LT missed almost all 5 games, Barkley was gone after game 2, and he had to get rid of the ball in less than 2 seconds on almost every snap.

If the Giants strengthen the O line, and they draft a #1 WR and they start winning, will you concede that maybe he wasn't as bad as you said he was?

It's kinda laughable to say well look at his rating, look at his QBR when you realize he averaged under 200 yards a game passing in 2022 and the Giants had one of the worst passing offenses in the NFL. Ignore that we only threw the ball beyond 200 yards 6 times, and we never went deep. Had the same production as most backups, but those 3 yard outs, they were super accurate.

The thing you also ignore about the playoffs in 2022 is that we faced a historically bad Vikings defense, seriously historically bad. How did Jones do against the Eagles who had a good defense in those same playoffs? Absolutely horrible is the answer.

That is factually incorrect about Jones time to throw, he averaged like 2.74 which was more time than Joe Burrow had to throw this past season among others.

So when are you going to admit that you were wrong on Jones, since you are hoping others will change their mind? Want the Giants to lose another half decade wasting time or is 5 years not enough?

We won in 2022 despite Jones limitations not because he was spectacular. There's nothing spectacular about 3200 passing yards and 15Tds but you know that.

2022 was Jones' best year, no doubt. But I would not call it a very good year for a QB. He was decent, but really not more than that. There is simply no universe where 3200 passing yards and 15 passing TDs with a sub 7 YPA is even "good" in today's NFL. He had an ok passer rating (13th, not "top 10"), but it was a training wheels, highly risk-averse passing offense and hence extremely limited in production. His decent rating was driven by a good completion rate and a relatively low number of turnovers since the throws were extremely low risk in nature. It was a bottom third passing offense for a reason. They tailored the offense to what they believed he was capable of, and he did ok within those limitations. The problem with that is that those limitations are worth nowhere near $40mm a year... not even close. That is an insane amount of money for what he brings to the table, even if he were the most durable QB in the league, which he is anything but.

As a broader point, while everyone is of course entitled to his opinion, it amazes me that Daniel Jones' capabilities as a QB are still a subject of contentious debate on this board. Did people not watch last season? Did they not watch other QBs on this team, including a $5mm/yr aging journeyman and an undrafted rookie perform better than Jones? Have we really not seen enough to this point?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on March 22, 2024, 08:45:49 PMIf he is as bad as you say he is, then may I ask why did he post a 92.5 RTG and a 60.0 QBR in 2022 ranking him around top ten?

Why did his team make the playoffs in 2022? and actually win a game?

Furthermore, in the first 5 games of 2023 he faced two top five defenses, his pro bowl LT missed almost all 5 games, Barkley was gone after game 2, and he had to get rid of the ball in less than 2 seconds on almost every snap.

If the Giants strengthen the O line, and they draft a #1 WR and they start winning, will you concede that maybe he wasn't as bad as you said he was?

This is a valid point.

Although we must be mindful that in 2022, he faced one top ten defence all season and the 22nd ranked defence in the post season.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on March 23, 2024, 06:39:31 AMThis is a valid point.

Although we must be mindful that in 2022, he faced one top ten defence all season and the 22nd ranked defence in the post season.

Thank you Ed, and we will have to see how the year plays out.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 22, 2024, 09:18:06 PMIt's kinda laughable to say well look at his rating, look at his QBR when you realize he averaged under 200 yards a game passing in 2022 and the Giants had one of the worst passing offenses in the NFL. Ignore that we only threw the ball beyond 200 yards 6 times, and we never went deep. Had the same production as most backups, but those 3 yard outs, they were super accurate.

The thing you also ignore about the playoffs in 2022 is that we faced a historically bad Vikings defense, seriously historically bad. How did Jones do against the Eagles who had a good defense in those same playoffs? Absolutely horrible is the answer.

That is factually incorrect about Jones time to throw, he averaged like 2.74 which was more time than Joe Burrow had to throw this past season among others.

So when are you going to admit that you were wrong on Jones, since you are hoping others will change their mind? Want the Giants to lose another half decade wasting time or is 5 years not enough?

We won in 2022 despite Jones limitations not because he was spectacular. There's nothing spectacular about 3200 passing yards and 15Tds but you know that.

It's generally not good to say someone's post is quite "laughable", as it doesn't respect the other person's opinion. I haven't done that to you, I would kindly ask you not to do that to me.

When considering a QB we also need to factor in if he has an ability to run, and DJ had that. When we combine his running and throwing statistics in 2022, we get 67% 3900 Yards 22 TD 5 Int, and this is why he received the contract that he did.

During that year, several of the QB's that his team beat were T. Lawrence, L. Jackson, and Kirk Cousins. You can make fun of his 3-yard outs, but evidently those short passes won the Giants ten games that year.

You can focus on the Eagles playoff loss, but he had to win ten games to even get there. So, as you choose to focus on the one loss, I choose to focus on the ten wins, including the playoff victory.

As for the Eagles playoff loss in 2022, in fact more than a few times I have admitted Jones played very poorly, that was plain to see.

During the 2022 season, the entire year you as well with others had formed an echo chamber of putting Daniel down on a weekly basis, and we had to hear it from you over and over again. The only thing that silenced your criticisms was when he won that playoff game, as we finally caught a break.

We will have to see what the Giants do in the draft, but if they strengthen the right side of the O line, and get him a #1 WR in the draft, and if the Giants start winning again and he returns to his 2022 form, will you admit that you were wrong?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 22, 2024, 09:18:06 PMIt's kinda laughable to say well look at his rating, look at his QBR when you realize he averaged under 200 yards a game passing in 2022 and the Giants had one of the worst passing offenses in the NFL. Ignore that we only threw the ball beyond 200 yards 6 times, and we never went deep. Had the same production as most backups, but those 3 yard outs, they were super accurate.

The thing you also ignore about the playoffs in 2022 is that we faced a historically bad Vikings defense, seriously historically bad. How did Jones do against the Eagles who had a good defense in those same playoffs? Absolutely horrible is the answer.

That is factually incorrect about Jones time to throw, he averaged like 2.74 which was more time than Joe Burrow had to throw this past season among others.

So when are you going to admit that you were wrong on Jones, since you are hoping others will change their mind? Want the Giants to lose another half decade wasting time or is 5 years not enough?

We won in 2022 despite Jones limitations not because he was spectacular. There's nothing spectacular about 3200 passing yards and 15Tds but you know that.

Quote from: kingm56 on March 21, 2024, 09:37:44 AMIt saddens you that people disagree with you...why?  I tend to learn more from those I disagree with, than those I agree with me.  I've added my replies in Bold.   

I appreciated your response here as it was respectable and worthy of consideration. I have nothing further to debate you on, however I would kindly ask you to consider this data.

In 2023 Daniel Jones sack % was 15.6, the all-time record belongs to David Carr at 14.6%. Daniel only played in five full games last year, including two top five defenses.

At that rate, if he played as many snaps as he did in 2022, he would have been sacked over ninety-five times. No QB can thrive or excel under those conditions, not even Mahomes, as we saw what happened to him against Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl a few years ago.

Here is the link

Jones Sacks

Quote from: sxdxca38 on March 23, 2024, 10:11:47 AMIt's generally not good to say someone's post is quite "laughable", as it doesn't respect the other person's opinion. I haven't done that to you, I would kindly ask you not to do that to me.

When considering a QB we also need to factor in if he has an ability to run, and DJ had that. When we combine his running and throwing statistics in 2022, we get 67% 3900 Yards 22 TD 5 Int, and this is why he received the contract that he did.

During that year, several of the QB's that his team beat were T. Lawrence, L. Jackson, and Kirk Cousins. You can make fun of his 3-yard outs, but evidently those short passes won the Giants ten games that year.

You can focus on the Eagles playoff loss, but he had to win ten games to even get there. So, as you choose to focus on the one loss, I choose to focus on the ten wins, including the playoff victory.

As for the Eagles playoff loss in 2022, in fact more than a few times I have admitted Jones played very poorly, that was plain to see.

During the 2022 season, the entire year you as well with others had formed an echo chamber of putting Daniel down on a weekly basis, and we had to hear it from you over and over again. The only thing that silenced your criticisms was when he won that playoff game, as we finally caught a break.

We will have to see what the Giants do in the draft, but if they strengthen the right side of the O line, and get him a #1 WR in the draft, and if the Giants start winning again and he returns to his 2022 form, will you admit that you were wrong?

I said it was laughable because You keep focusing in on those two stats as opposed to looking at the bigger picture as king suggested earlier in the thread.

Jones running has been his downfall with being inactive and injured. Quarterbacks are typically judged on their ability to throw not run and Jones is not good at the former.

Jones was not great In 2022, 3200 yards and 15tds is nothing, he had multiple bad years, and we as a fan base are so starved for good qb play that we trick ourselves into thinking a guy with the same production as Davis Mills, and less production than Sam howell, is a good quarterback.

You must not remember the Ravens or Jacksonville game at all. Jones didn't throw a single throw in the final 18 minutes of the Jacksonville game, even when we were down. Then in the Ravens game, Saquan was the bell cow at the end coupled with a huge defensive turnover and blunder by Jackson. Jones 173 yards wasn't wowing anyone. Also beating cousin isn't really a brag since they neat us the first time and like I said earlier had a historically bad defense. Plus cousins put up 300 yards and 3 tds.

You keep saying returning to 2022 form but what you don't seem to understand was he wasn't good in 2022, the Giants had a bottom passing offense and Jones was on the backend of passing production and Tds. So if he returns to 2022 form I will still say he is a bad quarterback because he is. Daboll being a great coach and masking Jones deficiencies doesn't make Jones a good quarterback and all the numbers and advanced stats back that up. If we get a perfect line, the perfect wr core, and perfect rb room why would we need Jones, we could start anyone back there and be successful. 

Quote from: sxdxca38 on March 23, 2024, 10:22:18 AMI appreciated your response here as it was respectable and worthy of consideration. I have nothing further to debate you on, however I would kindly ask you to consider this data.

In 2023 Daniel Jones sack % was 15.6, the all-time record belongs to David Carr at 14.6%. Daniel only played in five full games last year, including two top five defenses.

At that rate, if he played as many snaps as he did in 2022, he would have been sacked over ninety-five times. No QB can thrive or excel under those conditions, not even Mahomes, as we saw what happened to him against Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl a few years ago.

Here is the link

Jones Sacks

Almost half of his sacks was his inability to read defenses and holding the ball to long. Did he get sacked a lot, absolutely, was a lot of it on him because he wasn't reading the defenses or even doing basic slide protections absolutely. It's why Jones and Devito took significantly more sacks than tyrod.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 23, 2024, 10:41:27 AMAlmost half of his sacks was his inability to read defenses and holding the ball to long. Did he get sacked a lot, absolutely, was a lot of it on him because he wasn't reading the defenses or even doing basic slide protections absolutely. It's why Jones and Devito took significantly more sacks than tyrod.

Tyrod was sacked 3 times against Buffalo, and 4 times against Washington.

Then early in his 3rd game against the Jets he was pummeled and suffered a painful rib injury because of his O line.

The same atrocious O line could only keep Daniel upright for 5 games before suffering an injury, and only 3 for Tyrod, who some have surmised is better at avoiding sacks and pressure than DJ.

Video down below of the hit.