Big Blue Huddle

to expand on Rich's comment above, Wink's [lack of a] bedside manner will not work with a bunch of 18-20 year olds, many of whom have no shot at the nfl. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 12:47:46 PMTim,

I have a hard time buying the image of Wink you are painting (a coach with a serious emotional IQ problem) who would storm off after they fired a couple of his key coaches and acted like a "toddler" or "child." I can't see that sort of coach being in such high demand at even the college level and certainly not in such demand as being instantly the highest-paid assistant coach.

Clearly you are OK with him telling his boss, "F*ck You", ignoring his calls and texts, and ignoring the calls and texts of the GM. I don't see that as emotionally intelligent at all. It's what immature people do when they don't like something or don't get their way.

With regards to Michigan, or any employer for that matter, it's about weighing the pros and cons. Not a single NFL team with a coordinator or head coaching opening felt Wink's pros outweighed his cons. Michigan did. Good for them and him.

I'm not saying Wink is a despicable human being. He lacks the emotional intelligence to be a leader at the NFL level.

Quote from: T200 on March 22, 2024, 01:52:38 PMClearly you are OK with him telling his boss, "F*ck You", ignoring his calls and texts, and ignoring the calls and texts of the GM. I don't see that as emotionally intelligent at all. It's what immature people do when they don't like something or don't get their way.

With regards to Michigan, or any employer for that matter, it's about weighing the pros and cons. Not a single NFL team with a coordinator or head coaching opening felt Wink's pros outweighed his cons. Michigan did. Good for them and him.

I'm not saying Wink is a despicable human being. He lacks the emotional intelligence to be a leader at the NFL level.

Tim,

I never would have had the situation where Wink would have told me to go F myself and storm off.  As a manager, it's incumbent on me to put the people under me in the best possible position to succeed.   So, I never would have dreamed of firing the coaches that Wink worked closely with to generate his weekly game plans.

That is unless I WANTED Wink to tell me to go F myself and wanted him to storm off.  Then, I would have done exactly what Brian Daboll did.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 01:59:13 PMTim,

I never would have had the situation where Wink would have told me to go F myself and storm off. As a manager, it's incumbent on me to put the people under me in the best possible position to succeed.   So, I never would have dreamed of firing the coaches that Wink worked closely with to generate his weekly game plans.

That is unless I WANTED Wink to tell me to go F myself and wanted him to storm off.  Then, I would have done exactly what Brian Daboll did.

You can say that's how you feel but you can't say for certain that it wouldn't happen. You have ZERO control over someone else's reactions. None. Nada. Zilch. You don't get credit or blame for someone's reactions to what you say or do. That is 100% on them. Same with Wink. He is responsible and accountable for his actions regardless of what precipitated it. That concept is clearly lost on you. 

You can only control your own emotions and responses not those of others or what they say to you or how badly they say it.

If Dabs makes a decision or goes off on Wink in an idiotic or overly emotional way, Wink can't control that but he can control his reaction to it.  Is it easy to do?  No, but it really is the only way.  Frankly, look no farther than the military.  Some senior person goes off on a more junior person and that junior person has to take it and say, "yes sir."  It's about emotional restraint.

That's the difference between coachable and non-coachable players.  Coachable does not take harsh criticisms personally but listens and uses it as constructive feedback to improve.

Quote from: T200 on March 22, 2024, 02:04:31 PMYou can say that's how you feel but you can't say for certain that it wouldn't happen. You have ZERO control over someone else's reactions. None. Nada. Zilch. You don't get credit or blame for someone's reactions to what you say or do. That is 100% on them. Same with Wink. He is responsible and accountable for his actions regardless of what precipitated it. That concept is clearly lost on you. 

Tim,

I have 25+ years of experience in management in my paid jobs and 30 years of management in my volunteer work.  One thing I know to be true is that I do (to a considerable degree) control how employees will react.  Further, a good manager knows how an employee will react.  I am almost never (especially after so much experience) caught off guard by how an employee reacts.  So I know if I do X, the employee will react Y.  In this case, I would have had zero doubt that my firing Wink's right-hand men would piss him off.  I don't know how far Wink would go if he was pissed, but in an environment where it's normal for the head coach to yell at his coaches publicly, I would think Wink's reaction was within the realm of predictability.

A prime example-  As a very young manager, when I got into an argument, I would go toe to toe with the person, and things would escalate to the point that the person I was arguing with would do something inappropriate.  As an older, more experienced, and mature manager, I appreciate that the manager has an obligation to be the grown-up who de-escalates and diffuses the situation to calm things down.

The same thing was true when I did the work in the ambulance.  I developed a strong ability to control how my patients would react to me and what they would or wouldn't agree to.  I got so good at that aspect that I was once dispatched as a second ambulance to a call because an elderly woman was refusing to go to the hospital when it was clearly a medical necessity.  It was a summer morning, and she had passed out in her garden.  When I arrived, I could see in her eyes she was ready and itching for a fight over going to the hospital (having just argued with the crew on the scene).  Only I did what she didn't expect.  I calmly walked to her and sat down next to her on the bench she was sitting on.  Instead of talking about going to the hospital, I started talking to her about how lovely her garden was.  After a few minutes, I could see the resistance fade and that I was making a connection with her.  Only then did I discuss with her the possibility of taking a ride with us to the ER (I never used the word Hospital because that scares people more than an emergency room).  Long story short, she went willingly to the hospital.

We like to think we are in control of our actions, and ultimately we are.  Still, how you approach people and the words you choose, and the tone you use can greatly influence the reactions of others.  It was this ability that made Bill Parcells a Hall of Fame coach with two Super Bowls to his name.

Edit to add-  @Philosophers, I hope you take the time to read what I wrote.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 02:39:46 PMTim,

I have 25+ years of experience in management in my paid jobs and 30 years of management in my volunteer work.  One thing I know to be true is that I do (to a considerable degree) control how employees will react.  Further, a good manager knows how an employee will react.  I am almost never (especially after so much experience) caught off guard by how an employee reacts.  So I know if I do X, the employee will react Y.  In this case, I would have had zero doubt that my firing Wink's right-hand men would piss him off.  I don't know how far Wink would go if he was pissed, but in an environment where it's normal for the head coach to yell at his coaches publicly, I would think Wink's reaction was within the realm of predictability.

A prime example-  As a very young manager, when I got into an argument, I would go toe to toe with the person, and things would escalate to the point that the person I was arguing with would do something inappropriate.  As an older, more experienced, and mature manager, I appreciate that the manager has an obligation to be the grown-up who de-escalates and diffuses the situation to calm things down.

The same thing was true when I did the work in the ambulance.  I developed a strong ability to control how my patients would react to me and what they would or wouldn't agree to.  I got so good at that aspect that I was once dispatched as a second ambulance to a call because an elderly woman was refusing to go to the hospital when it was clearly a medical necessity.  It was a summer morning, and she had passed out in her garden.  When I arrived, I could see in her eyes she was ready and itching for a fight over going to the hospital (having just argued with the crew on the scene).  Only I did what she didn't expect.  I calmly walked to her and sat down next to her on the bench she was sitting on.  Instead of talking about going to the hospital, I started talking to her about how lovely her garden was.  After a few minutes, I could see the resistance fade and that I was making a connection with her.  Only then did I discuss with her the possibility of taking a ride with us to the ER (I never used the word Hospital because that scares people more than an emergency room).  Long story short, she went willingly to the hospital.

We like to think we are in control of our actions, and ultimately we are.  Still, how you approach people and the words you choose, and the tone you use can greatly influence the reactions of others.  It was this ability that made Bill Parcells a Hall of Fame coach with two Super Bowls to his name.

Edit to add-  @Philosophers, I hope you take the time to read what I wrote.

I agree 100% that you need to be mindful of how you approach people so as to prevent any negative blowback or reaction.  My guess is Dabs failed to do that.  Now, it's on Wink to be restrained in his response.  As senior person, Dabs failed in his approach.  As junior person, Wink failed in his response.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 22, 2024, 02:58:34 PMI agree 100% that you need to be mindful of how you approach people so as to prevent any negative blowback or reaction.  My guess is Dabs failed to do that.  Now, it's on Wink to be restrained in his response.  As senior person, Dabs failed in his approach.  As junior person, Wink failed in his response.

Joe,

I get a sense that the approach Daboll used was intended to get the response they got.  If Daboll was thinking of firing Wink's right-hand man (and also his brother for good measure), I would think that it would have started with Daboll calling Wink into his office to discuss off-season firings.  Even if Daboll was of the mindset of firing Wink's right-hand man for a good reason, it should have been a decision that, as much as possible, was arrived at mutually rather than Wink being informed of the firing (which was sure to go badly, even if one was less skilled at predicting reactions)   I would also add that while telling a boss to go F themselves is improper, reports are that Daboll had frequently MFed Wink.  So it's not quite as bad as if Daboll had always carried himself as a professional. 

Everyone is commenting as if there's a certainty over how things transpired, when the reality is fans know about 10% of what goes on behind closed doors.

What is certain is that Dabs is an NFL coach and Wink is not. What is also certain is that whether Wink liked it or not - or whether he respected it or not - there is a hierarchy. And the head coach is at the top. Not a single team across his entire career felt Wink was worthy of that job. Daboll landed the top spot in his mid 40s.

Those are the facts. Everything else is conjecture.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 02:39:46 PMTim,

I have 25+ years of experience in management in my paid jobs and 30 years of management in my volunteer work.  One thing I know to be true is that I do (to a considerable degree) control how employees will react.  Further, a good manager knows how an employee will react.  I am almost never (especially after so much experience) caught off guard by how an employee reacts.  So I know if I do X, the employee will react Y.  In this case, I would have had zero doubt that my firing Wink's right-hand men would piss him off.  I don't know how far Wink would go if he was pissed, but in an environment where it's normal for the head coach to yell at his coaches publicly, I would think Wink's reaction was within the realm of predictability.

A prime example-  As a very young manager, when I got into an argument, I would go toe to toe with the person, and things would escalate to the point that the person I was arguing with would do something inappropriate.  As an older, more experienced, and mature manager, I appreciate that the manager has an obligation to be the grown-up who de-escalates and diffuses the situation to calm things down.

The same thing was true when I did the work in the ambulance.  I developed a strong ability to control how my patients would react to me and what they would or wouldn't agree to.  I got so good at that aspect that I was once dispatched as a second ambulance to a call because an elderly woman was refusing to go to the hospital when it was clearly a medical necessity.  It was a summer morning, and she had passed out in her garden.  When I arrived, I could see in her eyes she was ready and itching for a fight over going to the hospital (having just argued with the crew on the scene).  Only I did what she didn't expect.  I calmly walked to her and sat down next to her on the bench she was sitting on.  Instead of talking about going to the hospital, I started talking to her about how lovely her garden was.  After a few minutes, I could see the resistance fade and that I was making a connection with her.  Only then did I discuss with her the possibility of taking a ride with us to the ER (I never used the word Hospital because that scares people more than an emergency room).  Long story short, she went willingly to the hospital.

We like to think we are in control of our actions, and ultimately we are.  Still, how you approach people and the words you choose, and the tone you use can greatly influence the reactions of others.  It was this ability that made Bill Parcells a Hall of Fame coach with two Super Bowls to his name.

Edit to add-  @Philosophers, I hope you take the time to read what I wrote.

Rich,

I appreciate you sharing your background.

The bottom line is that even if we aren't always in control of our actions, we are always 100% responsible. It seems that you are holding Daboll accountable for his actions and absolving Wink of his. They were both wrong. I think you know that. It also seems to me that while you have previously acknowledged that Wink was wrong, you take it a step further to state who you feel is more wrong, as if to justify Wink's reaction.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 03:08:57 PMJoe,

I get a sense that the approach Daboll used was intended to get the response they got.  If Daboll was thinking of firing Wink's right-hand man (and also his brother for good measure), I would think that it would have started with Daboll calling Wink into his office to discuss off-season firings.  Even if Daboll was of the mindset of firing Wink's right-hand man for a good reason, it should have been a decision that, as much as possible, was arrived at mutually rather than Wink being informed of the firing (which was sure to go badly, even if one was less skilled at predicting reactions)   I would also add that while telling a boss to go F themselves is improper, reports are that Daboll had frequently MFed Wink.  So it's not quite as bad as if Daboll had always carried himself as a professional. 

If you argued that in court, it would be met with a sustained objection.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 01:59:13 PMTim,

I never would have had the situation where Wink would have told me to go F myself and storm off.  As a manager, it's incumbent on me to put the people under me in the best possible position to succeed.  So, I never would have dreamed of firing the coaches that Wink worked closely with to generate his weekly game plans.

That is unless I WANTED Wink to tell me to go F myself and wanted him to storm off.  Then, I would have done exactly what Brian Daboll did.

It sounds like your management experience is limited to small teams, performing similar functions. As someone with 26 years of leadership experience, who's currently responsible for thousands of young men and women, from different social-economic backgrounds, from all over the world, I strongly disagree with your perspective. As a leader, you can do everything correctly, and still fail to achieve a desired outcome.  It's simply not as easy as you describe it.  There are some people who simply don't want to be led, and conduct themselves accordingly. 

Quote from: T200 on March 22, 2024, 03:32:55 PMIf you argued that in court, it would be met with a sustained objection.

Tim,

If Daboll didn't know that was the reaction he was going to get, then he is guilty of gross incompetence.  Daboll doesn't strike me as an unintelligent man, so that's why I believe he knew what he was doing. 

As I said, I have been around the block more than a few times.  I have literally seen less honorable organizations use similar tactics to get an employee to lose their cool to get them to quit in the heat of the movement or behave in a way that gave the organization grounds to terminate.

Quote from: kingm56 on March 22, 2024, 03:34:54 PMIt sounds like your management experience is limited to small teams, performing similar functions. As someone with 26 years of leadership experience, who's currently responsible for thousands of young men and women, from different social-economic backgrounds, from all over the world, I strongly disagree with your perspective. As a leader, you can do everything correctly, and still fail to achieve a desired outcome.  It's simply not as easy as you describe it.  There are some people who simply don't want to be led, and conduct themselves accordingly. 

It sounds like you didn't enjoy the benefits fo the mentorships I was lucky enough to receive. My first mentor drilled it into me that I was hired to solve problems, not give excuses.  To me, "I did everything correctly but still failed to achieve the outcome" is just that, an excuse.

One thing I learned in life is that leadership is not well taught in colleges.  It is well taught by quality mentors, and I was fortunate enough to have two very good ones.  Hell, even the language you used, "doing everything correctly," indicates a lack of appreciation of the concept that one size doesn't fit all.  You need to customize your approach to the person you are dealing with.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 03:36:13 PMTim,

If Daboll didn't know that was the reaction he was going to get, then he is guilty of gross incompetence.  Daboll doesn't strike me as an unintelligent man, so that's why I believe he knew what he was doing. 

As I said, I have been around the block more than a few times.  I have literally seen less honorable organizations use similar tactics to get an employee to lose their cool to get them to quit in the heat of the movement or behave in a way that gave the organization grounds to terminate.

So, Daboll put a block of Colby Jack on a mouse trap and Wink was hankering for a hunk of cheese. Wink allowed himself to be manipulated in such a way that he acted in line with his character. Got it. Wink was playing checkers and Dabs was playing chess.