Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 03:40:55 PMIt sounds like you didn't enjoy the benefits fo the mentorships I was lucky enough to receive. My first mentor drilled it into me that I was hired to solve problems, not give excuses.  To me, "I did everything correctly but still failed to achieve the outcome" is just that, an excuse.

One thing I learned in life is that leadership is not well taught in colleges.  It is well taught by quality mentors, and I was fortunate enough to have two very good ones.  Hell, even the language you used, "doing everything correctly," indicates a lack of appreciation of the concept that one size doesn't fit all.  You need to customize your approach to the person you are dealing with.

Rich,

I enjoyed the mentorship of some of the finest leaders this nation has ever produced; Thanks to those men and women, I am now entrusted with the wellbeing and development of thousands of men and women. When it comes to leadership, you're not in position to lecture me. Here's what I know, any leader who claims they can control every situation, and/or personality, has never had any real leadership responsibility, or is lying.

I simply can't control the actions of the thousands of people I lead.  I set the culture, truly care about every soul, and trust the leaders below me. Still, there will always be a small percentage that deviate from the standard. We hold them accountable.  The same is true for Wink; he was held accountable for HIS actions. 

Quote from: kingm56 on March 22, 2024, 03:56:33 PMRich,

I enjoyed the mentorship of some of the finest leaders this nation has ever produced; Thanks to those men and women, I am now entrusted with the wellbeing and development of thousands of men and women. When it comes to leadership, you're not in position to lecture me. Here's what I know, any leader who claims they can control every situation, and/or personality, has never had any real leadership responsibility, or is lying.

I simply can't control the actions of the thousands of people I lead.  I set the culture, truly care about every soul, and trust the leaders below me. Still, there will always be a small percentage that deviate from the standard. We hold them accountable.  The same is true for Wink; he was held accountable for HIS actions. 

Unfortunately this is the response I expected and it's my cue to bow out of this discussion.

Quote from: T200 on March 22, 2024, 03:48:56 PMSo, Daboll put a block of Colby Jack on a mouse trap and Wink was hankering for a hunk of cheese. Wink allowed himself to be manipulated in such a way that he acted in line with his character. Got it. Wink was playing checkers and Dabs was playing chess. 

Tim,


I am not going to dispute your characterization.   I will say based on my values, how I believe people should be treated, and how I believe power/authority should be wielded, Daboll was very wrong.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 04:32:18 PMUnfortunately this is the response I expected and it's my cue to bow out of this discussion.

You made assumptions and started lecturing without asking about my leadership experiences. If you bothered to inquire, you may appreciate I have a lot of experience in this field. I appreciate you simply don't like being challenged; however, I don't understand what prompted your sarcastic response. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 04:39:16 PMTim,


I am not going to dispute your characterization.   I will say based on my values, how I believe people should be treated, and how I believe power/authority should be wielded, Daboll was very wrong.

Yes, Daboll was wrong. He wasn't alone. And as I already mentioned several times, the NFL teams who had available positions and did not hire, let alone interview Wink, did not like how he handled himself.  Now he's out of the league.

Actions taken and consequences suffered.

Quote from: T200 on March 22, 2024, 04:57:26 PMYes, Daboll was wrong. He wasn't alone. And as I already mentioned several times, the NFL teams who had available positions and did not hire, let alone interview Wink, did not like how he handled himself.  Now he's out of the league.

Actions taken and consequences suffered.

Very well stated, Tim; you did far better job at capturing my sentiments than my crude posts.

Quote from: kingm56 on March 22, 2024, 05:07:57 PMVery well stated, Tim; you did far better job at capturing my sentiments than my crude posts.

You're good. 👍🏾

Not all messages are well-received no matter the messenger.

I'm not fond of the idea of a leader touting his leadership skills any more than I am in judging or passing blame on someone I don't know and have never met. I might find that to be a bit presumptuous and possibly self-aggrandizing, which would not correspond to my notion of leadership. Of course, to each his own.

Indeed, I have never regarded leadership as something to be claimed. More often, I find it reflected in a willingness of others to follow another in their own best interest whether or know it at the time. It may exhibit as a natural quality with some, but quite often it's evident only as a unique event.

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on March 22, 2024, 09:32:32 PMI'm not fond of the idea of a leader touting his leadership skills any more than I am in judging or passing blame on someone I don't know and have never met. I might find that to be a bit presumptuous and possibly self-aggrandizing, which would not correspond to my notion of leadership. Of course, to each his own.

Indeed, I have never regarded leadership as something to be claimed. More often, I find it reflected in a willingness of others to follow another in their own best interest whether or know it at the time. It may exhibit as a natural quality with some, but quite often it's evident only as a unique event.

Cheers!

Larry,

I think you make a fair point.  You can claim all sorts of leadership credentials, but if you don't demonstrate an understanding of leadership, it's all meaningless. 

From my perspective, blaming Wink for Brian Daboll's shortcomings was just a PR stunt by NYG (which clearly some fans have bought into).   For the sake of the team, I hope it was just a PR stunt.   I hope behind the bluster, there is a serious effort to correct Daboll's glaring deficiencies as there was Tom Coughlin's.  If there isn't, the Giants will be on a path of more futility and a new HC in the near future.  There is no way Daboll will enjoy sustained success until he learns to control his own emotions and outbursts, treats his coaching staff with respect, and behaves in a genuine and sincere manner.  The team needs everyone to row in the right direction happily.  So, it's a small condolence to point out that the player is still following the head coach if the coaching staff is miserable, underperforming, and lacking proper leadership.

I think your debate on leadership is at different levels.

Rich sounds like he managed smaller teams.  King managed if I had to guess maybe large military groups.

I've also managed teams as well.

Where I think your debate goes awry is that once you set the top level parameters a larger group means less ability to be mindful of individual behavior which mY threaten the team.

If you are managing a 20 person team, I see faces, talk to each all the time and can observe them and get in front of problems.

If You are managing 10,000 people, once you set the top parameters and create a layered structure with good people you are very unlikely able to get ahead of poor behavior of individuals unless they are direct reports.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 23, 2024, 11:14:56 AMI think your debate on leadership is at different levels.

Rich sounds like he managed smaller teams.  King managed if I had to guess maybe large military groups.

I've also managed teams as well.

Where I think your debate goes awry is that once you set the top level parameters a larger group means less ability to be mindful of individual behavior which mY threaten the team.

If you are managing a 20 person team, I see faces, talk to each all the time and can observe them and get in front of problems.

If You are managing 10,000 people, once you set the top parameters and create a layered structure with good people you are very unlikely able to get ahead of poor behavior of individuals unless they are direct reports.

Joe,


The thing with the NFL is there is game day.  That sort of high-pressure, time-sensitive management situation is very different than your typical office job.  I say that because I was put in even higher-pressure situations where lives were on the line, and time was critical in my management experience in emergency medical services, heavy rescue, and mass causality situations.   Being an NFL head coach is a combination of day-to-day management of what you would call "smaller teams" and the high-pressure high stakes management of game days.

I ended my conversation with King (and I have no idea what his story is) because he made it clear his mind is firmly shut to anything I have to say or points I would make despite my reasonable qualifications to do so.

With Daboll, I see two issues.   One is his game-day management.   Daboll gets too emotional, and when you are in those high-stress situations, you must remain in control and calm.  Sure, a planned show of anger toward a call or unhappiness toward a player (when you feel it's beneficial) is okay, but you have to be the anchor for your unit.  If you reach the point with Daboll where he literally told a reporter he was so upset he couldn't think straight, you are doing a disservice to your team (also, if you are yelling on the headphones or giving coaches grief instead of guidance during the game).

The other issue I have with Daboll is from all I hear; he is letting his ego get in the way of being a good manager and leader.  I learned very early on that you can't have an ego and be a good leader or an effective manager.  Every decision and interaction needs to be towards your organization's goals, not to pay homage to your ego.   Some of the stories that have leaked out about what has gone on with the Giants show me that Daboll is a man who has yet to learn that lesson.

One other point: I don't share my qualifications to give them false credibility. I share my credentials to show I speak from experience, but I still carefully explain the how and why of my points.  I never ask anyone to take what I say on blind faith.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 23, 2024, 11:14:56 AMI think your debate on leadership is at different levels.

Rich sounds like he managed smaller teams.  King managed if I had to guess maybe large military groups.

I've also managed teams as well.

Where I think your debate goes awry is that once you set the top level parameters a larger group means less ability to be mindful of individual behavior which mY threaten the team.

If you are managing a 20 person team, I see faces, talk to each all the time and can observe them and get in front of problems.

If You are managing 10,000 people, once you set the top parameters and create a layered structure with good people you are very unlikely able to get ahead of poor behavior of individuals unless they are direct reports.

Joe,

I was going to type something very similar; however, it failed to be as precise as your post.  I would like to add one caveat: IMO, it doesn't matter if you lead/manage 10,000 or 10 people, the actions of others are sometimes decoupled from leaders' actions.   I also think it's incredibly naive to believe a leader can control the actions of thier subordinates.  Four-star generals and CEOs of fortune 250 companies don't have this power. Perhaps they failed to enjoy the appropriate mentorship, or individuals sometimes act on thier own self-interest/morals.  20 years of experience has led me to believe the latter is true.

I am also incredibly skeptical of any leader who believe they can control every person and/or situation...that leader does not exist.

Fundamentally, I doubt Wink will ever be an effective leader as poor followers rarely become good leaders; I suspect his limited emotional intelligence and poor followership is why he was fired from Balt, NY and has yet to achieve his goal of becoming an NFL coach.

Regardless, exceptionally good post.   

Quote from: Painter on March 22, 2024, 09:32:32 PMI'm not fond of the idea of a leader touting his leadership skills any more than I am in judging or passing blame on someone I don't know and have never met. I might find that to be a bit presumptuous and possibly self-aggrandizing, which would not correspond to my notion of leadership. Of course, to each his own.

Indeed, I have never regarded leadership as something to be claimed. More often, I find it reflected in a willingness of others to follow another in their own best interest whether or know it at the time. It may exhibit as a natural quality with some, but quite often it's evident only as a unique event.

Cheers!

This was very much in line with my thoughts while reading through this thread.  People who tout their own leadership skills usually (as in, I'd say 95% of the time) are the ones with the enormous egos that their subordinates roll their eyes at when they're not looking their direction.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on March 23, 2024, 12:16:48 PMThis was very much in line with my thoughts while reading through this thread.  People who tout their own leadership skills usually (as in, I'd say 95% of the time) are the ones with the enormous egos that their subordinates roll their eyes at when they're not looking their direction.

As I said, you can't be a good leader and feed your ego.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 11:40:54 AMJoe,


The thing with the NFL is there is game day.  That sort of high-pressure, time-sensitive management situation is very different than your typical office job.  I say that because I was put in even higher-pressure situations where lives were on the line, and time was critical in my management experience in emergency medical services, heavy rescue, and mass causality situations.  Being an NFL head coach is a combination of day-to-day management of what you would call "smaller teams" and the high-pressure high stakes management of game days.

I ended my conversation with King (and I have no idea what his story is) because he made it clear his mind is firmly shut to anything I have to say or points I would make despite my reasonable qualifications to do so.

With Daboll, I see two issues.  One is his game-day management.  Daboll gets too emotional, and when you are in those high-stress situations, you must remain in control and calm.  Sure, a planned show of anger toward a call or unhappiness toward a player (when you feel it's beneficial) is okay, but you have to be the anchor for your unit.  If you reach the point with Daboll where he literally told a reporter he was so upset he couldn't think straight, you are doing a disservice to your team (also, if you are yelling on the headphones or giving coaches grief instead of guidance during the game).

The other issue I have with Daboll is from all I hear; he is letting his ego get in the way of being a good manager and leader.  I learned very early on that you can't have an ego and be a good leader or an effective manager.  Every decision and interaction needs to be towards your organization's goals, not to pay homage to your ego.  Some of the stories that have leaked out about what has gone on with the Giants show me that Daboll is a man who has yet to learn that lesson.

One other point: I don't share my qualifications to give them false credibility. I share my credentials to show I speak from experience, but I still carefully explain the how and why of my points.  I never ask anyone to take what I say on blind faith.

Rich - i agree with all of what you just wrote but with one caveat.  Some of the greatest leaders had large egos.  George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, Steve Jobs, etc.  A leader can have an ego though less ideal.  What he cant have is self-preservation over team.