Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 12:42:48 PMAs I said, you can't be a good leader and feed your ego.

Clearly, you missed his point.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 23, 2024, 12:59:22 PMRich - i agree with all of what you just wrote but with one caveat.  Some of the greatest leaders had large egos.  George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, Steve Jobs, etc.  A leader can have an ego though less ideal.  What he cant have is self-preservation over team.

Spot on, Joe! There is no 'right' way to lead.  It's an art, not a science.  As you stated, Patton was a completely different type of leader than Omar Bradley, both highly effective.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 23, 2024, 12:59:22 PMRich - i agree with all of what you just wrote but with one caveat.  Some of the greatest leaders had large egos.  George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, Steve Jobs, etc.  A leader can have an ego though less ideal.  What he cant have is self-preservation over team.

Fair point

Although, there are really two aspects.  There is having a large ego, and then there is one who uses one's position to feed that ego.   It's the latter that usually causes the behavior detrimental to leadership.

QuoteI also think it's incredibly naive to believe a leader can control the actions of thier subordinates. 

I would like the people who are discussing leadership here to think about their own lives and experience.

Have you ever had a boss who treated you in a way that made you lose your temper or perhaps work less?

Have you had a boss or teacher that inspired you to work harder?

Circling back to football, consider how the Raiders played at the beginning of the season on Josh McDaniels, and then consider how that same group of men played under Antonio Pierce with the same coaching staff and the same play calling.

There is a reason that both leadership and management are taught.   People in charge very much can influence the people under them and they get people to do what they need them to do (at least the good ones or competent ones can).

QuoteI doubt Wink will ever be an effective leader

Here is another comment that one should consider the facts as we know them.  Wink has a long and successful football career, starting in the college ranks.  His players consistently played hard for him, developed well, and, with the exception of McKinney, have sung his praises.  If one considers what Wink's job is, it is mind-boggling to believe someone would claim he was a poor leader.  Plus the college champion Michigan team hired him as their DC.  I seriously doubt a proven winner would hire a man with no leadership skills.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 01:28:12 PMFair point

Although, there are really two aspects.  There is having a large ego, and then there is one who uses one's position to feed that ego.  It's the latter that usually causes the behavior detrimental to leadership.

Rich - I would argue Patton fed that ego with his leadership.  For example, trying to beat Montgomery to a designated town from different directions.  Nothing wrong with that so long as he is willing to die alongside those he leads.  A person who believes his self-preservation is more important than those he leads is not a leader.

Quote from: kingm56 on March 23, 2024, 01:12:02 PMSpot on, Joe! There is no 'right' way to lead.  It's an art, not a science.  As you stated, Patton was a completely different type of leader than Omar Bradley, both highly effective.

100% agree with you.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 23, 2024, 01:38:20 PMRich - I would argue Patton fed that ego with his leadership.  For example, trying to beat Montgomery to a designated town from different directions.  Nothing wrong with that so long as he is willing to die alongside those he leads.  A person who believes his self-preservation is more important than those he leads is not a leader.

Joe,

It can be tricky to really judge Patton's motives.   We have to remember that the US army that entered WW2 wasn't the world-beater that we have today.   They were a quickly cobbled-together force (we didn't have a large standing army prior to WW2) that was late to the party, so to speak (the Brits had been fighting for years before the US joined in).   It's possible that part of the getting to the town first was the result of Patton feeding his ego, but he could have also been doing so to build up his own army's morale and confidence.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 01:28:12 PMFair point

Although, there are really two aspects.  There is having a large ego, and then there is one who uses one's position to feed that ego.  It's the latter that usually causes the behavior detrimental to leadership.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 01:36:33 PMHave you had a boss or teacher that inspired you to work harder?


There is a reason that both leadership and management are taught.  People in charge very much can influence the people under them and they get people to do what they need them to do (at least the good ones or competent ones can).

Here is another comment that one should consider the facts as we know them.  Wink has a long and successful football career, starting in the college ranks.  His players consistently played hard for him, developed well, and, with the exception of McKinney, have sung his praises.  If one considers what Wink's job is, it is mind-boggling to believe someone would claim he was a poor leader.  Plus the college champion Michigan team hired him as their DC.  I seriously doubt a proven winner would hire a man with no leadership skills.

To point 1: Like everyone here, I've worked for some terrible leaders; however, we have zero control over others' actions. What we control is how we react to the environment they created. To the best of our abilities, we should strive to comport ourselves as professionals. Interesting enough, I believe we can learn more from bad leaders, than really good ones. I suspect leaders recognize and reward those who carry themselves as professionals, regardless of the circumstances.

Wink failed to do so, and as a result, was 'fired' for the second time in 3 years.  Further, no NFL team expressed a desire to add his 'leadership' to their team. 

Point 2: Yes, Wink had a long and successful career.  However, despite the latter, and despite getting NUMEROUS HC interviews, he was never hired to the role.  Clearly, there's something lacking as his contemporaries, with less success, were hired as HCs.

Being exceptional at your job, does not make you a good leader.  Clearly, no NFL team thought Wink had the qualities to lead their team, and now, he's completely out of the NFL. Moreover, he was only effective when paired with HoF talent, without multiple AP/HoF, he's been fired 2x in 3 years and led two bottom 5 defenses for two consecutive seasons. The same thing happened to Sean Payton and Bill B.  They were exceptional at their jobs, as long as they had superior talent.  Without it, they led dumpster fires.  Odd how that works..,